General Music Chat

Religion: You are taking someone's word for it

Science: Unless you have the means and 'ability' (which includes intellect), and the willingness to repeat and analyze the expiriments or to analyze the data presented from outside expiriments... You are taking someone's word for it.

Religion: You are taking someone's word for it

Science: Unless you have the means and 'ability' (which includes intellect), and the willingness to repeat and analyze the expiriments or to analyze the data presented from outside expiriments... You are taking someone's word for it.

close but not exactly right.

in both cases it's not "someone" but instead you are taking a HUUUUUUUUGE number of people at their word.

if 1000 people all have come to the conclusion that The Great Spaghetti Monster exists (based on the UN scientific proof that it must be true 'cos it CAN'T be DISproved)....

..and 1000 scientists can agree on oh, let's say how gravity works....i think i'll go with the scientists. even tho i don't understand all the x's and o's in their equations.

one is based on phsical scientific evidence w experiments that can repeated to draw the same conclusion.

the other is based on "belief" and "faith". and tho it can't be DISproved...it can't be proven either.

faith vs. facts.

Yod, I have an elephant in my garage. You can't see it, you can't hear it, if you reach out, you wouldn't feel anything. But it's there, and you will know it's there if you believe in it.

Refute me. Show me that facts that can refute that.

There are none. Because it's so over-the-top insane, no amount of logic can crack that nut. That's why contradiction is all atheists have - because christianity is wrapped up in so many "rules" about God that there is literally no way to prove he doesn't exist. So it's left to the claimant to prove he does.

That's just stupid. The only hint of proof you have is the elephant crap you just posted. If it were true you could point to something more.

Explain how trees exist. Explain DNA. Explain countless stars in the universe. Explain the resurrection. There are none so blind as those who refuse to see.

You'll all find out soon enough.
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Explain this.
If GOD created EVERYTHING, then who created GOD?
When you have your answer, you will find the origin of trees, DNA, and countless stars in the universe.
After all, HE is much more complex than THEY are, isn't he?

Good point Zip, but that can be said about pretty much anything. I wasn't there but it was reported that there was a war in Iraq. If I'm dedicated to the truth I would seek out as many different sources to confirm this as I could. But at some point I would either believe or not believe. So it's really an issue of trust - who do you trust for your information? I am inclined to believe science because it constantly seeks to confirm, deny or correct previously established facts. Religion tends to not investigate itself and is not accepted as a viable belief system by most educated and intelligent people.

Religion: You are taking someone's word for it

Science: Unless you have the means and 'ability' (which includes intellect), and the willingness to repeat and analyze the expiriments or to analyze the data presented from outside expiriments... You are taking someone's word for it.

close but not exactly right.

in both cases it's not "someone" but instead you are taking a HUUUUUUUUGE number of people at their word.

if 1000 people all have come to the conclusion that The Great Spaghetti Monster exists (based on the UN scientific proof that it must be true 'cos it CAN'T be DISproved)....

..and 1000 scientists can agree on oh, let's say how gravity works....i think i'll go with the scientists. even tho i don't understand all the x's and o's in their equations.

one is based on phsical scientific evidence w experiments that can repeated to draw the same conclusion.

the other is based on "belief" and tho it can't be DISproved...it can't be proven either.

faith vs. facts.

It's just a matter of trust then.
A trust consensus.

For basic scientific observations, that's easy. When you get more complex it starts getting hinky.

you challenging ANYONE's debating skills is a hoot coming from you when your sole argument is "you can't prove god doesn't exist...therefore he does".

Please don't take this the wrong way either. That is just stupid.

I've never said that even once.

Besides not recognizing logic or fact when it slaps you, you don't seem to have any reading comprehension skills either. My comments in this thread are about where morality comes from and Dawg has already shown you the logic about THAT which none of you can refute so you resort to changing the subject and ridicule. It's a weak mind that has to do that.

But for your information, I have posted several times in other threads stating in a logical manner how I came to trust in God; showing factual history as the reason. I'm not trying to convince anyone of the obvious, just stating how I came to this conclusion as an atheist trying to prove it was not true.

People who refuse to see the truth simply dismiss it without trying. They are afraid of the truth and that is why they won't look at it. You don't want any questions of morality to get in the way, yes, I get that. I was the same way for 16 years.

Spagetti monster is a deflection tool to avoid engaging. You ridicule that which you don't want to understand. Yea, I get that too. It's a defense mechanism that keeps you blind in darkness...and it's a fool's game.

So you will respond with more name-calling and think yourself smart. You will dismiss everything by ignoring the substance of what has been said and misdirecting that with vain imaginings.

What you won't do is attempt to find out what the truth is. We both know that.

yeah...trust does enter into.

but if i look at a group of scientists and try to come up w their "scheme"...what they have to gain by this so called gravity explaination of theirs, well...i can't see any reason for them to be snowing me. i mean, what's their end game????

religion on the other hand? c'mon....how many crusaders, jihadists, hucksters, liars, dictators, thieves, and exploiters have stood on the shoulders of religion to oppress, torture, exploit, line their pockets and justify all sorts of dastardly deeds and nefarious goals?

yeah...trust does enter into.

but if i look at a group of scientists and try to come up w their "scheme"...what they have to gain by this so called gravity explaination of theirs, well...i can't see any reason for them to be snowing me. i mean, what's their end game????

religion on the other hand? c'mon....how many crusaders, jihadists, hucksters, liars, dictators, thieves, and exploiters have stood on the shoulders of religion to oppress, torture, exploit, line their pockets and justify all sorts of dastardly deeds and nefarious goals?

Science is constantly disproving itself. So many times in history scientists contradicted the bible only to be proven later that they were wrong.

No one hates religious hypocrites more than me...but you know what? At some level all humans are hypocrites. We say one thing but do another.

Anyone can play a G note on a bass, but that doesn't make them a bass player. Even among those who can play bass well, it doesn't necessarily make them a musician. It's the same with christianity.

We are all sinners, yet there have always been people who call themselves christian and use it like a hammer. Is that what God wills of them? Absolutely not. Their actions contradict His words. Everyone knows that.

I'm still a sinner. No way to deny that I struggle between my will and His all the time. (Especially this week in Las Vegas!) Yet without the power over sin He gave me at the point of being born again, I'd probably be dead a long time ago.

Speaking to you as a fellow musician, you really ought to try it. Life has been more than exciting since I gave up "my" will. All my musician buddies thought I was crazy, but guess who they call when life get them down?

Those who haven't given up completely are still playing for $35 a night and stuck in an 80s time warp. They're going to die of sclorosis of the liver, just like all my musician relatives did because they have no power over the sin that is destroying them (and the multiple families they've had)

Believe it or not, I'm on your side. If pissing you off will get you to consider searching for the truth, I'll do it twice daily.

No one hates religious hypocrites more than me...but you know what? At some level all humans are hypocrites. We say one thing but do another.

true enough...we all are hypocrites at some time on one level or another. hopefully it's not over the "big stuff".

Anyone can play a G note on a bass, but that doesn't make them a bass player. Even among those who can play bass well, it doesn't necessarily make them a musician. It's the same with christianity.

yeah, i get that. i've been fortunate enough to know plenty of christians and people of other faiths who talk the talk and ALSO walk the walk. i know they exist. i suspect (well, at least i can't DISPROVE IT...hehehe) that you walk the walk as well.

We are all sinners, yet there have always been people who call themselves christian and use it like a hammer. Is that what God wills of them? Absolutely not. Their actions contradict His words. Everyone knows that.

I'm still a sinner. No way to deny that I struggle between my will and His all the time. (Especially this week in Las Vegas!) Yet without the power over sin He gave me at the point of being born again, I'd probably be dead a long time ago.

well, despite indications to the contrary, i'm glad you found something that works for you. a while back you apologized for busting my balls and slinging sh*t.....now it's my turn. hopefully you'll take my name calling and insults hurled as just more mssgb'd BS that's all too commonplace on BM.
truth told....i do respect people who have the stones to stand up their beliefs even if i don't share them.

Speaking to you as a fellow musician, you really ought to try it. Life has been more than exciting since I gave up "my" will. All my musician buddies thought I was crazy, but guess who they call when life get them down?

Those who haven't given up completely are still playing for $35 a night and stuck in an 80s time warp. They're going to die of sclorosis of the liver, just like all my musician relatives did because they have no power over the sin that is destroying them (and the multiple families they've had)

well, like i said above i'm glad for you and anyone else that takes away solace and peace from their religion. if they need it to give them a good moral code and it delivers. hey, also good.

what i find (mildly) objectionable is the widespread misconception among many beleivers that atheists are living an unfulfilled, unsatisfied, and meager existence because they haven't welcomed jesus, allah, buddah, etc into their lives.

nothing could be further from the truth in my case. were i not an atheist, i'd have to say that i truly live what i would call a "blessed life". i've been married to the same great gal for 34 yrs, we own a nice paid off house w land out in the country, i play music that i enjoy w not one band, but several (all very good musicians and even better people), i have more wonderful instruments than i deserve, i love my family and friends, i came thru cancer w all my working parts staying in working order..... and more.

please, trust me when i say.....LIFE IS GOOD. so yeah, it always feels a little patronizing when someone w the best intentions feels bad for me because i don't believe.

Believe it or not, I'm on your side. If pissing you off will get you to consider searching for the truth, I'll do it twice daily.

hehe. you have skills, yod but nothing on a mssg board is gonna piss me off. hey, i know you're looking out for my cursed soul and that is appreciated (if entirely unnecessary). again...i hope you'll please accept my apology.

No one hates religious hypocrites more than me...but you know what? At some level all humans are hypocrites. We say one thing but do another.

true enough...we all are hypocrites at some time on one level or another. hopefully it's not over the "big stuff".

A hypocrite is a hypocrite, and it's one thing I won't stand for.
Someone may not like my reasoning, why I make an exception for "X".
But, I strive for consistency, nonetheless.

Anyone can play a G note on a bass, but that doesn't make them a bass player. Even among those who can play bass well, it doesn't necessarily make them a musician. It's the same with christianity.

If you can play the bass well, you are a bassist.
What other definition can there be?
If you get paid for it, you are a professional.
The drummer from Badfinger even came over to my house and gave me that bit of advice, in my bedroom, when I was a teenager.

yeah, i get that. i've been fortunate enough to know plenty of christians and people of other faiths who talk the talk and ALSO walk the walk. i know they exist. i suspect (well, at least i can't DISPROVE IT...hehehe) that you walk the walk as well.

We are all sinners, yet there have always been people who call themselves christian and use it like a hammer. Is that what God wills of them? Absolutely not. Their actions contradict His words. Everyone knows that.

I'm still a sinner. No way to deny that I struggle between my will and His all the time. (Especially this week in Las Vegas!) Yet without the power over sin He gave me at the point of being born again, I'd probably be dead a long time ago.

I'd probably be dead long ago without punk rock.
So, I sympathize, in a way.
Many in my family are Christians, for different reasons.
Most were just raised that way.
But, some needed to turn their life around after it had turned to sh!t.
It has been a mostly positive influence for them.
My grandparents quit drinking...well, at least OPENLY.
But, it still has its negatives.
My grandmother sending me birthday cards declaring that I will burn in Hell for eternity is one.

well, despite indications to the contrary, i'm glad you found something that works for you. a while back you apologized for busting my balls and slinging sh*t.....now it's my turn. hopefully you'll take my name calling and insults hurled as just more mssgb'd BS that's all too commonplace on BM.
truth told....i do respect people who have the stones to stand up their beliefs even if i don't share them.

I'm glad for anyone that takes away solace and peace from their religion.
But, also a little sad for them.
They've retreated into a make-believe world to escape this one.
And, in the process, they avoid finding solutions to REAL problems and CREATE new ones instead.

Speaking to you as a fellow musician, you really ought to try it. Life has been more than exciting since I gave up "my" will. All my musician buddies thought I was crazy, but guess who they call when life get them down?

Those who haven't given up completely are still playing for $35 a night and stuck in an 80s time warp. They're going to die of sclorosis of the liver, just like all my musician relatives did because they have no power over the sin that is destroying them (and the multiple families they've had)

I feel much BETTER now without God, thank you very much.
If I ever want to be a neurotic mess again I will call him up, from the loony bin.
This thing "reality" has it's ups and downs.
But, it is consistent, and doesn't judge me or tell me that I am a bad person over silly things.
It just "exists"...and that is good enough.

well, like i said above i'm glad for you and anyone else that takes away solace and peace from their religion. if they need it to give them a good moral code and it delivers. hey, also good.

what i find (mildly) objectionable is the widespread misconception among many beleivers that atheists are living an unfulfilled, unsatisfied, and meager existence because they haven't welcomed jesus, allah, buddah, etc into their lives.

nothing could be further from the truth in my case. were i not an atheist, i'd have to say that i truly live what i would call a "blessed life". i've been married to the same great gal for 34 yrs, we own a nice paid off house w land out in the country, i play music that i enjoy w not one band, but several (all very good musicians and even better people), i have more wonderful instruments than i deserve, i love my family and friends, i came thru cancer w all my working parts staying in working order..... and more.

please, trust me when i say.....LIFE IS GOOD. so yeah, it always feels a little patronizing when someone w the best intentions feels bad for me because i don't believe.

I find a lot objectionable.
Not the least of is the insistence that THIS life is just a rehearsal, a test, to get into Heaven.
This life is all that we've got.
So, we'd better get it right the first time.
"Be excellent to each other and party on dudes!" - Bill & Ted

Believe it or not, I'm on your side. If pissing you off will get you to consider searching for the truth, I'll do it twice daily.

Ditto.

Minutemen - Life as a rehearsal
http://youtu.be/7fBkne5tDHQ

Did God exist before man?

Hum maybe Man Made God?

If you can play the bass well, you are a bassist.
What other definition can there be?
If you get paid for it, you are a professional.

You missed the analogy because I said "anyone" can strike a G note on a bass, and wasn't talking about a musician. To use another analogy, anyone can take a scalpel and cut flesh, but it doesn't make them a doctor.

Mike, I'm sorry you've only seen legalistic religion. I hated religion when I was an atheist and I hate it even more now. Though I'm sure it's hard to understand the difference, I'm talking about faith.

You've never heard me say "you need to go to church" or "you need to become a christian" or "you need to stop being a sinner" because I don't think that is what anyone needs. They need to take a step of faith...and God will take care of the rest.

I have not once ever condemned pagans for being pagan, drunks for drinking, or sinners for sinning. What else would they do? To browbeat someone into doing something they don't want to do is not God's way and never has been.

My decision of faith was made in spite of the church. I'm famously outspoken in churches and prefer hanging out with musicians, to being in a christian discussion group. I try to respect all people...but that doesn't mean I'm good at being a floor mat. I have rebuked churches from their own stages for being legalistic pinheads. I have been barred from more churches as a believer than I ever was as a pagan.

But the stereotypes you portray don't represent "real" christians. They represent people who draw power of manipulation from religion, or people who have been taught that by legalistic pinheads. That comes from a long history of greek (humanistic) philosophy that entered the church in the 2nd century. The early church fathers were already corrupt.

In the late 60s there was something called the Jesus People Movement. Hippies started getting saved and found that they weren't welcome in the (legalistic) church because of their appearance. They began a reform movement that is still in the minority, but it rejects anything that is based on cultural morality as opposed to the biblical mandate given by Jesus to love our neighbor and bless those who hate us. We are a community without walls.

Admittedly, what I'm doing in this conversation might not seem like blessing to you but if I didn't care at all, I'd just ignore you. But you're exactly like I was so I understand where you're coming from.

Planet, thanks for being a friend. Even if we still cuss each other going forward, at least I know there's a heart hidden in that bass player somewhere. You're probably sitting on it now.




I was a founding member of a band that eventually became The New Bohemians. I quit too soon to really call myself a member but they didn't make it until they found the right lead singer a few years later, Edie Brickell. I always loved that line in their big hit "What I Am" where she says, "Religion is the smile on a dog"

True religion is taking care of widows and orphans. Anything else...yea, she nailed it.





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You missed the analogy because I said "anyone" can strike a G note on a bass, and wasn't talking about a musician. To use another analogy, anyone can take a scalpel and cut flesh, but it doesn't make them a doctor.

I know what you meant.
But, the analogy was a little flawed...and offensive.

Mike, I'm sorry you've only seen legalistic religion. I hated religion when I was an atheist and I hate it even more now. Though I'm sure it's hard to understand the difference, I'm talking about faith.

Oh, don't get me wrong.
I've seen all types.
But, the really nasty ones hide behind the protection of the nicer ones.
Blending in with them gives the illusion of respectability (in THEIR mind anyway).
The common thread between them is a flaw in their logic.
It's holding the curtain up over "THE GREAT AND POWERFUL OZ", if you get my meaning.
Pull on that thread.
Then, the whole thing comes crashing down and they are exposed for what they really are.

I kinda hate to shatter the illusions of decent people.
But, they are being used as cover by the REAL targets.

You've never heard me say "you need to go to church" or "you need to become a christian" or "you need to stop being a sinner" because I don't think that is what anyone needs. They need to take a step of faith...and God will take care of the rest.

I have not once ever condemned pagans for being pagan, drunks for drinking, or sinners for sinning. What else would they do? To browbeat someone into doing something they don't want to do is not God's way and never has been.

My decision of faith was made in spite of the church. I'm famously outspoken in churches and prefer hanging out with musicians, to being in a christian discussion group. I try to respect all people...but that doesn't mean I'm good at being a floor mat. I have rebuked churches from their own stages for being legalistic pinheads. I have been barred from more churches as a believer than I ever was as a pagan.

But the stereotypes you portray don't represent "real" christians. They represent people who draw power of manipulation from religion, or people who have been taught that by legalistic pinheads. That comes from a long history of greek (humanistic) philosophy that entered the church in the 2nd century. The early church fathers were already corrupt.

EVERYONE always says, "Oh, those aren't REAL Christians."
Well, someone needs to clue THEM in to that.

I am glad that you haven't said things like "you need to get saved, Mike", "you need Jesus in your heart."
I am sick of those people.
I don't even TRY being polite anymore.
I just tell 'em to leave me the f*ck alone and avoid them.

In the late 60s there was something called the Jesus People Movement. Hippies started getting saved and found that they weren't welcome in the (legalistic) church because of their appearance. They began a reform movement that is still in the minority, but it rejects anything that is based on cultural morality as opposed to the biblical mandate given by Jesus to love our neighbor and bless those who hate us. We are a community without walls.

Admittedly, what I'm doing in this conversation might not seem like blessing to you but if I didn't care at all, I'd just ignore you. But you're exactly like I was so I understand where you're coming from.

Don't get me started on Jesus freak hippies!
I blame them for Ronald Reagan, Jerry Falwell, The PMRC, and the current state of things.

I'm sorry if I always come off sounding like I'm browbeating everybody.
But, these sort of arguments often start because of something very simple being taken the wrong way.
FishermanBob just about accused me of being a Stalinist, just because I posted a list of beliefs that I happen to agree with.
The political discussions often drag this into it too.
Jeff claimed that Robin Hood was not a hero, but just a thief who deserved every punishment the kingdom could dish out to him.
Not very "Christian" if you ask me.