General Music Chat

Im sorry, I cant & wont subscribe to your 'Save The World' 'We are the bad guys' opinion. [Although I respect you very much as a good person Irminsul.] I could find literature & different views on the web that point to the left & right, up & down, all around, etc. 24/7. I am sure I could find documented references that Space Aliens will save us all. Its true that we can be our own worst enemy at times. I guess I may be bias myself, That is because I am an American. My father was a Marine, I was an Army Ranger, & my son is in the Air Force, {Now killing innocent people in Iraq?} Have you ever heard the term 'GENOCIDE' Mass Murder? No, not WMD. Africa, etc. are countries famous at 'GENOCIDE'. Yes we have always had a policy of leaving other countries worse off than they were before we came. I hope that is a policy we dont let happen with Iraq, Afgan. It is sad when an illegal Alien is more of a Patriot than our own people. In other countries ruled by self appointed dictators, War Lords, etc. What do you think would happen if you were to make such statements against your country Irminsul? I dont think you would be around long enough to answer that question. I dont want to start an argumentive debate here, But hey, So many of us simply take our freedoms to lightly. But as I said, You have all of my respect Irminsul, I am just a little disappointed & frustrated with people that 'Dont see things my way only' [Just a little humor] Let the debate begin! By the way, This is a political forum isnt it?

V&B you've made a lot of accusations here, so I'll take them point by point:

1. The facts I posted about our militarily intrusive and beligerent foreign policy are not of the same ilk as the "bigfoot landed a UFO on my turnip garden" websites. What I posted were facts - verified from any amount of sources you care to check. They are uncomfortable. Inconveninent. Disturbing. Hard to swallow. But they are still facts. Mischaracterizing the facts I posted by trying a scurrilous comparison to whacky space alien fantasies will avail you not, on this score.

2. Let's not get into the "My family is more military than yours so I'm right" routine, ok? My dad was a Navy Vet of the Korean War; my Uncle was in the Battle of the Bulge in WWII; My stepdad is a retired submariner and Naval intelligence officer with three presidential medals; my brother was in the army in the Kosovo war; my brother in law, a retired Lieutenant in the Navy. I am actually one of the few NOT in the military amongst my kin. This all has nothing to do with taking a clear and courageous look at where we are going wrong. Being in the military does not automatically disable your ability to criticize your government. If you doubt this, I would recommend reading General (Yes, decorated Marine General) Smedley Butler's book exposing the US's imperialistic policies in the Americas called "War Is A Racket".

3. Yes, I'm very familiar with mass murder and genocide. And to be honest, when it comes to body counts, Africa is really lousy at it compared to the genocides pulled off by Europeans - Hitler in WWII (millions dead) - The Armenian Genocide committed by Turkey - the countless pograms against Jews in prerevolutionary Russia.

As long as we are comparing body counts, lets do one between AlQaeda -3,200 Americans dead, and George W Bush's Holy Army of the Third Crusade in Iraq - over half a MILLION dead (according to a Lancet John Hopkins University study). So yeah, I know about mass murder.

4. Criticizing my nation's government and military policies is not making a statement against my country. Not even close. In fact I would make the case that I care more, because I foresee how these awful policies will end up harming my dear nation.

5. Let's not play the "how well would you do speaking out in a dictatorship" game, shall we? It demeans both of our intelligences. Free speech is my birthright as a born American. I do not owe any administration, any politician or any army thanks for it. It is one of my inalienable rights. Do not imply I forfeit this right if my speech becomes critical of my government. Patriotism is speaking out, no matter what I have to say. The First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States was not put there to protect POPULAR viewpoints alone. Think about that.

And finally, it is exceedingly dishonest and sneaky to call my patriotism and humanity into question while peppering your statement with all these compliments as to what a "good person" I am, V&B. Its passive aggressive, and I don't like it. Let's have a frank and respectful exchange of views, or let's have none at all.

Shouldnt we look for the best in people, Country, etc. Not the worst. I do not search for documented opinions & facts to back up what I believe in, or what is in my heart. [Although gaining knowledge of the facts to which one may be referring to brings strength to the suggestions we are trying to relate to others.] Sometimes one certain set of facts is only part of the whole picture. I prefer to see both sides of the coin before I spend it. To stand in the other mans shoes before judging his deeds. And yet, At times I have failed to hasten my own advise. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. And still, Some are blind. Is God, & the promise of a Heaven, A Fact? Or is the Bible, Only the greatest book ever written?..........How fragile our world is. Here today, Gone towmorrow..........Politics, War, Religion. { I never worried about the small things }

How many non-Muslims have crashed planes into buildings, how many non-Muslims have beheaded Muslims, how many non-Muslims have attacked Olympic villages, blown up buses and trains, blown up planes over Scotland, etc. etc. etc. Muslim terrorists are the only ones to blame in this miserable method of political persuasion. Muslim terrorists offer absolutely no workable peaceful solutions. No amount of conspiracies by either the United States or any other nation can compare to the barbaric methods of the Muslim terrorists. I'm sure the United States government has done some terrible things in the past. Our leaders have made some awful decisions in the past and will probably make awful decisions in the future, but I don't believe anything we have done even remotely compares to the misery perpetrated on the civilized world by the terrorists. It's akin to a cult of ruthless bloodthirsty zombies who have no respect for any human life, even their own. I guess the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful people and probably want peace more than anything, and as a matter of fact there are leaders in the Muslim world who are working diligently to erradicate terrorists from their midst. We and the rest of the world must maintain an ironclad strength and unity in fighting this plague and wiping it out. I'd rather live here, despite all the terrible conspiracies and evils perpetrated by our horrible government, where we have the freedom to protest our own government, than live with people who would be more than happy to chop my head off for the least little protest I might have against Islam. Thank God I am an American, thank God I live here, and thank God we have brave men and women who VOLUNTEER to go wherever they are asked to fight for my freedom of free speech such as we have on this forum. Now let's all get back to musical issues. Later...

I'm sure the United States government has done some terrible things in the past. Our leaders have made some awful decisions in the past and will probably make awful decisions in the future, but I don't believe anything we have done even remotely compares to the misery perpetrated on the civilized world by the terrorists...

You wanna compare the 3,200 killed in the US by BinLadens boys on September 11 2001, and the over half a MILLION innocents killed in Iraq thanks to the stupid and illegal US war on that nation? Bob, if you can say that's not comparable, you're right...we've multiplied their body count many times.

Next?

WHat about the United Nations' resolution after resolution after resolution for Saddam to allow inspectors into Iraq to comply with Iraq's agreement after the Gulf War? How about the war between Iraq and Iran in the eighties that killed perhaps a million people, which Saddam started? How about Iran's leader threatening Israel with destruction? How about Kuwait begging for the world to intervene when Saddam invaded it? How about the hundreds of thousands of innocent Shiites Saddam buried in mass graves, or the thousands of Kurds he killed wth gas? Did we have a rght to invade Iraq? You bet we did. Do I feel better that our troops are over there now? You bet I do. Did you know that a very high percentage of those troops in Iraq are volunteering to go back after they are discharged? Why? Because they feel their mission is worth the sacrifice. The forces that are killing Iraqis are mainly insurgents, particularly Al-Qaeda, who are trying to create as much destruction as possible to make us look bad, and perhaps are achieving their goals. I'm not sure the Iraqis themselves really understand or appreciate democracy. They've lived under tyrannical rule for so many centuries that perhaps they never will be able to support a thriving democracy. My hope is that when we finally leave there that the Iraqis will somehow become a nation of law and not a nation that's ruled by dictatorship, but time will tell. As far as it being an illegal war, I don't believe that for a minute. If nothing else the actions of the terrorists must have an immediate and indelible response by us. We were attacked on 911 and many times before that. There's only so much we can take before action is needed. Unfortuneately that's what war is. It's people attacking other people. If we just sit like cowards and let them continually attack without a measured response, then they will attack us more and more. What's needed is somehow for all sides to get to the negotiating table and hammer out some sort of truce or lasting peace. The other side (terrorists) have offered nothing but death, and we have to respond in kind. You might think I'm very right wing on politics, actually I'm very liberal on some issues, coservative on others, This is one issue I'm in total agreement with Bush. This is pretty much how the Israelis deal with terrorists, and they are the experts at it. Anyway, LET"S GET BACK TO MUSIC ISSUES, THIS IS A MUSIC WEBSITE ISN"T IT? Later...

WHat about the United Nations' resolution after resolution after resolution for Saddam to allow inspectors into Iraq to comply with Iraq's agreement after the Gulf War? How about the war between Iraq and Iran in the eighties that killed perhaps a million people, which Saddam started? How about Iran's leader threatening Israel with destruction? How about Kuwait begging for the world to intervene when Saddam invaded it? How about the hundreds of thousands of innocent Shiites Saddam buried in mass graves, or the thousands of Kurds he killed wth gas? Did we have a rght to invade Iraq? You bet we did. Do I feel better that our troops are over there now? You bet I do. Did you know that a very high percentage of those troops in Iraq are volunteering to go back after they are discharged? Why? Because they feel their mission is worth the sacrifice. The forces that are killing Iraqis are mainly insurgents, particularly Al-Qaeda, who are trying to create as much destruction as possible to make us look bad, and perhaps are achieving their goals. I'm not sure the Iraqis themselves really understand or appreciate democracy. They've lived under tyrannical rule for so many centuries that perhaps they never will be able to support a thriving democracy. My hope is that when we finally leave there that the Iraqis will somehow become a nation of law and not a nation that's ruled by dictatorship, but time will tell. As far as it being an illegal war, I don't believe that for a minute. If nothing else the actions of the terrorists must have an immediate and indelible response by us. We were attacked on 911 and many times before that. There's only so much we can take before action is needed. Unfortuneately that's what war is. It's people attacking other people. If we just sit like cowards and let them continually attack without a measured response, then they will attack us more and more. What's needed is somehow for all sides to get to the negotiating table and hammer out some sort of truce or lasting peace. The other side (terrorists) have offered nothing but death, and we have to respond in kind. You might think I'm very right wing on politics, actually I'm very liberal on some issues, coservative on others, This is one issue I'm in total agreement with Bush. This is pretty much how the Israelis deal with terrorists, and they are the experts at it. Anyway, LET"S GET BACK TO MUSIC ISSUES, THIS IS A MUSIC WEBSITE ISN"T IT? Later...

wow...so much bullshit in that last post, it's hard to know where to start. I guess I'll do point by point, like I did with V&B -

1. Although Saddam did occassionally give the inspectors grief when he felt they were acting outside their bounds, he cooperated with UN inspectors. Head inspector Hans Blix even stated this several times. Fact is that Iraq gave unfettered access to inspectors right up to the US starting an attack. It was the US WHO pulled the crap of giving the inspectors wild goose chases regarding WMD. It was the US who withdrew inspectors while Iraq had granted full access. After the war started, Hans Blix had nothing but angry criticism for the baloney that the Bush admin pulled regarding the search for WMD. Which I remind you, was never found.

2. The Iran-Iraq war came to the great pleasure of the Reagan administration, who loved the idea of laying siege to Shiite Iran. In case you forgot, Saddam was OUR BOY for quite awhile. Seems we love a dictator when serving our ends, eh Bob? So lets not wring our hands for the war dead in that period since it was largely at OUR behest. Its dishonest.

3. Before you scream about Iran's Ahmadinejad throwing threats (which were largely overblown or mistranslated according to later reports) at Israel, I remind you that Iran has never attacked Israel. It is in fact Israel which has attacked more of its neighbors than any other nation in the region. Rhetoric isjust rhetoric...but bombs are real.

4. US Ambassador Glaspie actually gave Saddam a green light to invade Kuwait. It was only afterwards, when the US saw the threat to oil exports to that country, that the rally call for "liberation" began. Plus, the AlSabah family (royal rulers of Kuwait) had too much to lose if real democracy happened there. So the US charged in for...well....oil. Not freedom.

5. The gassing of Halbjah is now disputed as to who actually did the act - Iran or Iraq. It was the site of a horrific battle and almost all experts agree that it was an act of war, not genocide. The so called "hundreds of thousands" buried in mass graves....lets be honest. There is one site with about 300,000 buried in it - HOWEVER what the FOXnewsstation doesnt tell you is that it included a huge number of SOLDIERS killed in the war. Not some drive by from Saddam against his people. The truth is so inconvenient isnt it Bob!

There is so much more to add to this but I can wrap it up with the following:

* We were NOT justified in invading and occupying Iraq. It was a scheme based on lies and cooked intel, by the PNAC idiots in the Bush administration who have designs on dominating the planet.

* EVery day we remain there is a day when MORE Iraqis, MORE Americans will die and we are in fact LESS safe because this is a wet dream for the Islamic Fundamentalists who can point to our outrageous venture and say to the world "See....we were right about America."

* This war is most certainly NOT about your freedoms here at home. In no way, shape or form! Saddam never threatened me or mine. No Iraqi ever did. And moreover...

Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11. Stop making your arguments as if he did.

The majority of Americans now are with me...that this is a stupid, immoral war and we need to stop it and bring US troops home now. Not one more dead US soldier.

NOT ONE.

Im with Bob on this one, Thanks for your support Brother!

There is no war. It's an illegal occupation. One that's on its way out, and fast. It's over, you chickenhawk flag-thumpers are gonna have to deal with it. The fraud of the war-for-profit has been fully exposed, the entire scheme has been laid bare and the American people are done with it. Even Republicans are caving daily. The only thing left is to respect the Constitution and impeach Cheney & Bush as the founding fathers called for when an administration goes out of control and embraces an imperial posture against the will of the people.

Withdrawl will take 18 months or more. There are no easy exits when an entire country despises your occupation forces and pits the very police force you have trained and armed in pitched battles against your troops.

Anyways, does this place force you to pay them before you can contact other musicians?

I understand we are becoming a country divided on the war in Iraq, And I hate war just as much as anyone. But as I stated before, My son & nephew is in Iraq now and there isnt a minute that goes by I fear that I will hear from the department of defence of my worst nightmare. Like when I saw 9/11 on TV & knew the fact that my uncle lived in N.Y. & was employed at one of the Twin Towers. I convinced myself it couldnt be, But he just simply disappeared from the face of the earth for no reason. Washington & New York is right next door to our area, And I will admit that the fact alot of government officials were killed on 9/11, simply pissed off our government because they lost friends & collegues & may have reacted out of anger & sorrow without a clear mind. We are at a stand still in Iraq & I pray every night that we reach a soulution that will bring my family home. Its easy to rebell the war when you havent lost or known someone lost in the the war & tower attacks. But to inquire I am a chickenhawk flag thumper is so confusing, anger, disapointment.......And I really understand you guys are true Patriots & love your country. All we, that have lost & have loved ones in the face of danger deserve & only want respect. We ask for nothing! We want [like you] A peaceful ending. And we're not crying for sympathy.....Peace To All.

But you all have to admit, "Chickenhawk Flag-Thumpers" would be a great name for a band.

But you all have to admit, "Chickenhawk Flag-Thumpers" would be a great name for a band.

At least your post relates to music instead of politics, But I always liked 'THE EAGLES' As a great name for a band

I have been reluctant to post to this thread but I feel compelled to do so.

First off how about UN Resolution 1441 from November 8th 2002.

http://www.un.org/Depts/unmovic/new/doc ... s-1441.pdf

Excerpt: Recognizing the threat Iraq’s non-compliance with Council resolutions and proliferation of weapons of mass destruction and long-range missiles poses to international peace and security,

There is evil in the world. There always has been and there will always be. No matter how much all of us wish for a peacful world, I am afraid that wish will never be granted.

There are extremists who want us dead. No discussion, no compromise, no mutual agreement. I will use this anology. You try to reason with me, and I punch you in the face. After you pick your self off the ground and dust yourself off and then try to reason with me I punch you in the face again and I keep punching you in the face untill you no longer get up. If I have to hit several others to get to you is of no concern of mine as long as I put you down. Now when you finally fight back, your the bad guy. That is what we are fighting. The theatre in which this fights takes place is irrelevant, it just happens to be Iraq. Lastly if those in the theatre are not helping or willing to stop the fight betwen us then they are part of the problem.

One other thing. IF the full might of the United States Army was ever unleashed no holds barred, no political BS there would be nothing left standing. There would be so many dead, so much destruction in Iraq it would be beyond comprehension so let's dispense with how much carnage we are causing over there. Anyone remember the road of death from the first gulf war? If not go look it up. I will save you the time:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_of_Death

Irminsul this is directed to you. Saddam was firing on our planes in the no fly zone on a daily basis. Here you go.

http://www.defendamerica.mil/iraq/iraq_nofly.html

That is an act of war and was all the justification we needed to go in so let's just stop about this being an "illegal war" and call it what it is "unpopular". Also after the first gulf war when we allowed the republican guard to go they slaughtered thousands of kurds while our soldiers watched in horror unable to do anything. Don't believe me? Here.

http://www.house.gov/mcdermott/sp040421b.shtml

Lastly if any one of us thinks we are smarter then the intelligence agencies and think tanks of the Untied States, the UK etc. some one is seriously delusional. There is more here then meets the eye and at stake then the war in Iraq. Try to see the big picture.

Now after all I have ranted if you ask me if this war has been run right or well, I would respond with a resounding NO.

As far as not caring for Bush, I can't stand our entire government. IMO they all need to go and we need to start fresh because they do not have the best interests of the American people in mind IMO.

I just caught this and had to address it:

5. Let's not play the "how well would you do speaking out in a dictatorship" game, shall we? It demeans both of our intelligences. Free speech is my birthright as a born American. I do not owe any administration, any politician or any army thanks for it. It is one of my inalienable rights. Do not imply I forfeit this right if my speech becomes critical of my government. Patriotism is speaking out, no matter what I have to say. The First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States was not put there to protect POPULAR viewpoints alone. Think about that.


You owe everything to the brave men and women who have fought this countries battles and died to allow you the freedom of what you speak. You owe the goverment for providing the army to that protects you. It is your "right" because they fought for you to inherit that right, it is not your inalienable right just because.

I'm sorry dude but that comment was out of line, very arrogant and tells me a great deal deal about your MO.

"Excerpt: Recognizing the threat Iraq’s non-compliance with Council resolutions and proliferation of weapons of mass destruction and long-range missiles poses to international peace and security,"

Uh, dude, reality check here. Saddam had no WMDs. Inspectors were on the ground, doing their job effectively, allowed everywhere reporting that very fact when Bush launched his insane war for oil. The UN had to pull the inspectors only because Bush's Haliburton private army was invading a sovereign nation posing zero threat to the US, something that Bush swore he would never do in his campaign.

The "brave men" etc in Iraq are now by majority a private army of mercenaries working for corporations like Blackwater. They owe their allegiance to Blackwater's bottom line, not the US Constitution. They are bound by NO LAWS, including murder. They frequently take joyrides slaughtering Iraqi civilians for fun. Brave? You bet.