General Music Chat

Correct jsantos. The few I know who do music for a living teach or run studios in addition to playing 200 gigs a year. But there's precious few of them.

I could find a lot cheaper hobbies than music my man.
I would expect to get paid too, if I weren't on a mission from GOD

When I gig I do it first and foremost for the money. I HAVE to be rewarded for my hard work.

Wow...

What a sh*tty attitude. Total mercenary.

If your "first and foremost" reason for playing isn't for the love of music, you need to find something else to do. Seriously.

Man, I hate guys like you. You poison the waters for the rest of us who actually give a rip about the art. I had a guy like you in my band last summer. Sucked the fun right out of rehearsals and gigs.

Sorry Bob, but that's the way I feel.

I said whenever I GIG it is first and foremost about the money. GIGGING is hard work. I play music because I love it. I rehearse because I love it. I wouldn't do any of this if I didn't love it. I'm happy to do benefit shows GRATIS becasue I love it BUT if I GIG and make a profit for the venue owner I HAVE TO BE PAID FOR MY SERVICE. Bar owners who TAKE ADVANTAGE of hard working PROFESSIONALS and pay them below minimum wage or NOT pay them are poisoning the waters for "the rest of us who actually give a rip about the art" AND deserve THEIR FAIR PORTION OF THE PROFIT. People who are SO DESPERATE TO PLAY FOR NOTHING are ruining it for the rest of us who take pride and WORK HARD TO PRODUCE A PROFIT. You're missing my whole point. GIGGING is a business. When you GIG you are ANOTHER EMPLOYEE in effect. You need to separate the romantic image of DOING IT FOR THE ART and DOING IT FOR MONEY. There's nothing more deflating to me than to spend umpteen hours working on my art AND HAVE NO PLACE TO SHOWCASE MY ART FOR A FAIR WAGE. I've participated in numerous free benefit shows. I've freely promoted the local radio station KKFI that is listener supported. I've helped out at a small number of jam sessions when asked by respected colleagues to do so. You need to become mercenary when YOUR HARD WORK IS MAKING A PROFIT FOR SOMEBODY ELSE. Don't give away your hard work. There's a very good musician in town who constantly does free shows. Guess who can't get a paid gig? If somebody's making money off you it's time to demand your fair share. If you give away your hard work it is hurting those of us who should be rightfully paid for their hard work...

With all due respect...

I fundamentally disagree.

That whole "playing for the love of the art" thing just doesn't fly with me anymore. You know what? I love programming. There's a reason I've been successful at it. It's because I throw myself into it in a big way. All the best programmers I've ever known really love their work.

Try not paying them what they're worth and see how many of 'em show up for work.

Programming is every bit as creative as music.

So, why should musicians be expected to "play for the love" and not expect to be paid a fair amount of money? You can argue all you want about what constitutes "fair". Supply and demand is an apropos principal.

But if you aren't expecting to be paid what you're worth, you screw over every musician in your area who does.

Look at it like this: being paid for making music makes it a little easier for me to continue making music, which I do love to do. So I like getting paid.

Don't misread what I wrote. If you're a software developer like me then you *should* have some gray matter between the ears. Pay attention.

He said his "first and foremost" reason for playing was money. I'm not saying it shouldn't be a consideration. What I said was if that is your "first and foremost" reason for playing, that's wrong.

I have no problem with people who want to get paid for something their good at doing. I think my track record on this message board is loud and clear on capitalism.

I just don't want money to be THE primary reason for someone wanting to be in my band. They better love music first, and performing, and practicing, and their instrument. Because if money is the #1 thing with them - if that's what motivates them - then that's the wrong reason. And it makes it way harder for me to deal with them, because money skews their opinions on everything from song selection to gigs.


I stand by what I said. And if money is your "first and foremost" reason for programming as well, then you should get out of that line of work too. Because we have enough sh*tty programmers running around who are 9-5 and just picking up a paycheck. I want passion in my people, not mercenaries.

And you can't get passionate people when they think about money first.

The best programmers I know don't do it for the money. They do it because they love it, and their passion makes them great (and yes, they often DO work for free, on projects they are passionate about it. It's called OPEN SOURCE).

I think mercenaries have a bad name and connotation for neo political reasons.
I am a mercenary nurse. I do it first and foremost for the pay and will go to the highest bidder if conditions are right.
Mercenary on the battle field is worth 10 grunts. He's not concerned about going home or his next meal. He's paid to kill, period.
To my way of thinking / seeing the situation. A mercenary will have more passion for his task. It's how he lives.

But that's just me.

Don't worry about me having a passion for music. I've been at this BUSINESS of music for thirty years. My wanting to get paid fairly doesn't skew my song selection or passion for this art in any way. Everybody in the band has an equal say in which songs we play, whether it's cover or original. I know from my many years at this that there seems to be no rhyme or reason which songs work and don't work. If somebody in the band wants to try a song, even if I think it's retarded, we try the song. I let the audience decide if a song works or not. And again, my wanting to get paid for my efforts doesn't cloud my artisitic vision, never has and never will...

Another problem we have is the level of musician in this band. We've got two of the most in demand players in town (I'm NOT talking about me either). If I tell them we've got a gig for the door they just laugh at me. That night they'll take a guaranteed gig from one of several other bands who need thier services. I'm kind of under the gun to get a guarantee. There are experienced people out there who rightfully deserve to get a guarantee. Again, they don't have to prove anything to anybody. If the entire town becomes play for the door, and it's headed that way, there's going to be a lot of very competent musicians and bands that'll be sitting home. ANd a lot of clubs that'll start having dwindling attendance. I've seen it happen to many clubs before...

Don't misread what I wrote. If you're a software developer like me then you *should* have some gray matter between the ears. Pay attention.

Nice. Start with an insult. Wins me over every time.

He said his "first and foremost" reason for playing was money. I'm not saying it shouldn't be a consideration. What I said was if that is your "first and foremost" reason for playing, that's wrong.

Well,

1) That's not actually what he said.

2) I disagree with your premise.

If you start with the assumption that musicians are inherently musicians (and I do), what they choose to do with that can stem from all sorts of motivations, including money.

I want passion in my people, not mercenaries.

And you can't get passionate people when they think about money first.

Once again, I disagree with your premise.

Yes, if I didn't do it for a living I'd still probably write code for my own purposes. But the only reason I write code for other people is...

...the paycheck.

It helps that I fundamentally enjoy writing code, but if I'm writing it for someone else's purposes, well, yeah, I'm pretty mercenary about it.

And, yeah, I like playing for its own sake. I don't like hauling equipment, buying and maintaining that same equipment, rehearsing till the cows come home or dealing with all the non-music oriented crap that goes with it. If I have to do those things in order to play...pay me.

The best programmers I know don't do it for the money. They do it because they love it, and their passion makes them great (and yes, they often DO work for free, on projects they are passionate about it. It's called OPEN SOURCE).

Yes, although, they really like to get credit for their work. And all of them that I know are still looking for a way to turn a profit for their work.
A lot of open source stuff is something they developed for their own benefit that they realized might be useful to other people.

But I get what you mean about people who got into programming because they heard they could make a lot of money at it. They annoy me as well. They'd never write a line of code if someone wasn't paying them.

But, really, how many musicians do you know who got into it because they heard they could make a lot of money? Any of them?

OTOH, I'm probably a bit sensitive about this because of some recent experiences with bands that played in bars we had no business being in. The bar owner at the one gave me a lame line about "real musicians play for the love" as she was paying us a third of what she should have been.

Moreover, it's been my observation over the years that when I play in places that actually pay the bands, the band is better received. People seem actually to want the band to be there. Is it possible, I wonder, that the problems some of these places have in paying bands has more to do with their own clientele than the bands playing there?

I kinda think so.

Maybe my attitude isn't so much "money first", but I expect to be paid when I play out. Actually, there's this old aphorism that I think sums it up:

"Money is the sincerest form of flattery.
Women love to be flattered.
So do men."

So do musicians.

Hey aiki_mcr, I listened to a few of your profile samples. Nice tight playing, enjoyed it. I assume that's you in your profile picture? Looks like you have a real nice bass and bass amp. You're probably a serious musician. I assume that your bass rig was a little on the expensive side, right? (Hopefully you paid for it.) Your profile samples sounded like you are very well rehearsed, right? So all of this means one thing when you gig, you gladly play for free right? Take care...

With all due respect...

I fundamentally disagree.

That whole "playing for the love of the art" thing just doesn't fly with me anymore. You know what? I love programming. There's a reason I've been successful at it. It's because I throw myself into it in a big way. All the best programmers I've ever known really love their work.

Try not paying them what they're worth and see how many of 'em show up for work.

Programming is every bit as creative as music.

So, why should musicians be expected to "play for the love" and not expect to be paid a fair amount of money? You can argue all you want about what constitutes "fair". Supply and demand is an apropos principal.

But if you aren't expecting to be paid what you're worth, you screw over every musician in your area who does.

Look at it like this: being paid for making music makes it a little easier for me to continue making music, which I do love to do. So I like getting paid.

Don't misread what I wrote. If you're a software developer like me then you *should* have some gray matter between the ears. Pay attention.

He said his "first and foremost" reason for playing was money. I'm not saying it shouldn't be a consideration. What I said was if that is your "first and foremost" reason for playing, that's wrong.

I have no problem with people who want to get paid for something their good at doing. I think my track record on this message board is loud and clear on capitalism.

I just don't want money to be THE primary reason for someone wanting to be in my band. They better love music first, and performing, and practicing, and their instrument. Because if money is the #1 thing with them - if that's what motivates them - then that's the wrong reason. And it makes it way harder for me to deal with them, because money skews their opinions on everything from song selection to gigs.


I stand by what I said. And if money is your "first and foremost" reason for programming as well, then you should get out of that line of work too. Because we have enough sh*tty programmers running around who are 9-5 and just picking up a paycheck. I want passion in my people, not mercenaries.

And you can't get passionate people when they think about money first.

The best programmers I know don't do it for the money. They do it because they love it, and their passion makes them great (and yes, they often DO work for free, on projects they are passionate about it. It's called OPEN SOURCE).

I arch my eyebrow at the thought of you doing programming of any imprortance in Lewiston. - but I guess thats off topic.

I'm fixing to play a bar for the door and 10% of the bar.
I think I'll push for the 2 1-hour set idea.

Will post my 'earnings' after. Could be a lot of moola, could be jack squat.

Hey aiki_mcr, I listened to a few of your profile samples. Nice tight playing, enjoyed it. I assume that's you in your profile picture? Looks like you have a real nice bass and bass amp. You're probably a serious musician.

Thanks, Bob, although I cringe a little at being called a "serious" musician. But that's mainly because I've spent a lot of time over the years being critical of people who call themselves "serious" musicians. I like to think of myself as a sincere, committed musician.

But it's really just semantics.

And, FWIW, I only have seven basses, all but two of which were, yeah, pretty expensive.

So, as for playing for free, I will do it under a few circumstances, but I don't like it.

Will post my 'earnings' after. Could be a lot of moola, could be jack squat.

Good luck with that. Seriously. I'm rooting for the 'lot of moola' end of the scale.

I program computers so that I can afford to play music.

I arch my eyebrow at the thought of you doing programming of any imprortance in Lewiston. - but I guess thats off topic.

People make life decisions bud. I've turned down some really nice job offers in other parts of the county; some of that I regret, but that's another thread.

I'm very, very good at what I do.

gtZip and ColorsFade - proof they don't just grow potatoes in Idaho. And just what the f*ck is so special about Boise anyway?