General Music Chat

At the end of the day I just want to play out there. If someone hears something or wants to hire whatever I have, or.......... hopefully by then the band I am in then great.

Right on. Why should a band be any different than any other business.? If some one likes your product they'll pay for it, if not.......

There is a club here that had any band they are going to hire do a free bee on Wednesday. If they are good, they get the gig and the pay. Personally, I wouldn't do it, but then, I don't care if I get any gigs. But on the other hand, if a bar keep doesn't think a band will make the money back PLUS $$$ why should they pay. Imagine the average bar. Not that big. So if the guys are getting $400-$500 a night..... that's a lot of friggin beer to sell BEFORE they see even a pukey dime of profit. So I really do see their side also.

I'm a musician (At least I lie to my friends and relatives and say I am) and If I had a bar I would have to be damned sure the music was a big draw. As mentioned earlier, and a very good point} people are not following bands. But they aren't going to the clubs either. You can walk into any bar in town on a week night and find the places running heat, electricity, and help. For what??? The two drunks that would be there even if the earth was on fire?

It is a two way street. If I couldn't make the draw needed to pay my wages, I shouldn't be hired. A club isn't a friggin charity. If I'm not a good enough hustler to call everyone and tell them to come to "the club" and let people know we were working for the gate, I wouldn't expect to make anything that way either either.

Now don't get me wrong. I was a 7 night a week gigging musician. as well as a Sat afternoon jam session leader for 15 years.

I seldom EVER got along with ANY club owner. But whenever a lead guitar player or a bass man was needed they would call me and if possible I would help out.
Of course a couple of times I got a wee bit wasted and woke up on the road hundreds of miles away with the band I was helping out.

So it is my common sense sticking up for them, not my liking to deal with them. When you look at them as having to bring home the bucks you can understand. I knew many bar owners who worked 9-5 jobs and spent those wages trying to keep the dream of having their own club alive. I knew many that lost a lot, some invested their life's savings. And it didn't work out most of the time.

You know what it takes just to get to the point you can do a full four set gig. Countless hours of practice, a bunch of expen$ive equipment, many hours of rehearsal, finding the right people to play in your band. Just the fact that you've gotten to the point where you can do a professional gig RULES OUT playing for the door. It doesn't matter to me whether 5 people show up or 500 people show up, just the HARD WORK IT TAKES TO GET TO THE POINT OF BEING A PROFESSIONAL AUTOMATICALLY QUALIFIES ME TO MAKE MORE THAN MINIMUM WAGE. I'm not buying anybody's sob story of not making a profit. I know in my own self employment that at times (like now in this recession for example) I lose money. That's the risk of running ANY business. Guaranteeing a PRO band a decent wage is simply part of the overhead of running a venue with live music. I've been asked to come out on a week-night and play for free, I've been asked to bring my band to a jam session and play a set for free. I'M WAY BEYOND THAT STAGE. I don't have to prove anything to anybody. Every place I've ever played at I've been asked to come back. Some of those gigs lost money, but the club owner knew that over time it would PAY OFF to have us return on a regular basis. Like I said earlier, more and more venues getting bands to play for the door is dangerous and it will lead me to STAY HOME....

More and more places are telling me you can play for the door. Is that happening in your town? I'm not playing that game. It all goes to supply and demand. Too many bands, not enough venues, too many bands desperate to get in front of people. If a venue owner tells me I can play for the door they can kiss my ass...GOODBYE...

First rule of playing for the door is, nobody collects the cash other than someone YOU bring and trust well enough not to rip you off.

Second rule of playing for the door is, have the good sense to promote the hell out of your show 1 week in advance starting on a Friday to ensure you get a fair turnover and they're prepared for the cover charge. Posters at all the nearby hot spots, colleges, businesses, banners on band member's cars, hit the college and commercial free radio stations who will promote you for free or a small innocent bribe.
Then the icing on the cake, you give the patrons something in return by having a drawing where they win a band T-Shirt or CD if you have merchandise and if not, you offer something sought after that is certain to be desired like a bottle of Vodka each member chips in 2 bucks on.

You also never send band members out that don't have the confidence and charisma to promote you so at least one of you needs to be a pitchman and "rockstar" personality. The other guys need lie low so as not to scare people off

The way you talk buddy, it's like you're not doing it for the money anyway yet you're expecting your local small time pub to reward you for your hobby.

If you have the reputation, even just playing clubs is done through a booking agent and is contractual so legally they have to pay you and more importantly pay in advance knowing your reputation to fill their business with customers.

When I gig I do it first and foremost for the money. I HAVE to be rewarded for my hard work. Second, I DO promote our band as much as possible IF we are getting a guarantee. It has been my experience over the years that a local dive doesn't get nearly as much customers having a cover charge as not having a cover charge. I simply refuse to play the cover charge game. It's never done any good for us or the places we play. Without a cover charge and a guarantee we always have made a profit for the venue. We get MORE people in the door who buy MORE drinks and MORE food, the bartenders and waitresses make MORE tips and we get asked to come back. Most of the places that have a cover charge I've seen are usually DEAD and it has little to do with the band playing there that night. In some markets it may work well. For some bands it may work well. It doesn't work in the Kansas City market as far as I'm concerned.

In my area if you want to make more than the average $400 a night you have to take some chances and work for the door. Weve done well both ways at times. When my band works for the door I feel like we have basically rented the room to do what we want musically and otherwise. What I mean is we may only play for a couple of hours istead of the standard 4 x 45 minute sets. A lot of time we will play for 2 1 hour sets. Plus we dictate the music that is played between sets to suit us. Working for the door is a way to make more than average but as in anything it just means you have to make sure you bring the people. Unless an original group has some sort of following in my area I dont know how you would even ask for any money. You want maximum exposure for your songs and you dotn want a cover charge to be running people off.

Once again things are tight in bar land. They can get Karoake DJs for $50-100 a night, they can get a DJ for around 50-100. This is your competition, and thats what it is competition.

I dont know what the answer is to working for the door, I guess you need to bring a solid crew of people if thats that case or just stay at home. If you are getting a set fee to play you better play stuff that people want to hear, not all the pet music we all like to play to get our ya yas out.

Bob,

"It doesn't matter to me whether 5 people show up or 500 people show up, just the HARD WORK IT TAKES TO GET TO THE POINT OF BEING A PROFESSIONAL AUTOMATICALLY QUALIFIES ME TO MAKE MORE THAN MINIMUM WAGE."

Then why did you start this thread if you are so inflexible? For sympathy? You get what the market will bear, just like every other musician on this forum. All the bravado about how professional you are and how great your band is doesn't mean crap to a club owner who is barley making it.

I know guys that run professional recording studios and have drop dead bands. Even they have to play by the rules of the guy spending the money. Why should they give a crap about how many hours you spent learning your trade? You stated that don't give a rats a$$ about their bottom line or what it takes for them to stay in business. That sounds pretty inflexible to me.

You'll always get what they think you are worth, not what you think you are worth. Personally, I won't do it because it isn't worth it to me.

The years of practice were for me and me alone. I never started out thinking: "Wow! I can go to "Joe's Zoo" and get paid for it if I practice long and hard enough."

I drive 120 miles round trip just to jam for 5 hours with musicians I like. I wouldn't take $100.00 to play across the street for 1 hour for someone. I like to play guitar. I made a living at it when I felt like it. I quit for 25+ years because I didn't like playing clubs, I didn't like drunks, and I didn't like playing the covers I had to play. I was sick of picking what I knew, and I heard nothing that I wanted to learn. That is a brick wall. I hung it up for good, many years ago, so I thought.

But you are so right that club owners do not understand. Some musicians boast about making $100 for 1-2 hour sets, or how much the band made for a gig. They never count the time it takes to tear down their gear, load it in a truck, drive to the destination, unload the gear, set it up again and play. Then tear it all down, load it haul it and unpack it, and set it up again at home.

But it is the band leader who needs to do all the hustling. If you want what you say, you have to be a damned good salesman as well as a musician. You can't do the hard sell then you aren't going to get the guy to part with his hard earned money. That is the bottom line. If you talk him into trying out your band, and it doesn't pay for him, in the end, you won't be back. And the word will get out to his club owner friends.

If you think the world owes you a living because you practiced, then you don't leave yourself much wiggle room. Anyone who has heard me play knows I have spent a couple hours getting to know my craft. Funny thing, even after all these years, and with a really good reputation as a musician, I still can't go into a restaurant and say "Give me a steak, I'm a pretty fair guitar picker"

Well, I could, but most likely I'd end up out on the sidewalk.

Geeze, it's just simple economics. It's not against or even about you. You just have to play by the rules they set. Or run your own club. The whole story just sounds like mutual financial ignorance to me.

I'll always be on the side of the musician. I are one. So I am not against you at all, In fact, I stand with you. But it is what it is.

Slacker you have some good points. Again it is supply and demand; if you have the product that's needed you can get your price. If you're just another so-so act in an already saturated market you will struggle or seldom gig.

How about this idea? Go ahead and charge whatever you want at the door. You're still going to pay us a guarantee. If the door is less than what you owe us make up the difference. If the door is more than what you owe us keep the difference for yourself. The bottom line is this, when we play at any venue we always get asked back. We are a good band that does what we say will do. The people like what we perform, they tell their friends, the places we play at make a profit above and beyond the guarantee. I don't ask for something unreasonable. They can pay us $300-$400 per gig. If they get a huge crowd and make money I'm all for it. I even tip the bartender out of our pay at the end of every gig. There's bad nights and good nights, you never know about weather, other events pulling people away, whatever. If I do my part (as always) I expect a set amount of money. It has always worked out well for everybody involved. Whenever we have agreed to play for the door it has not worked out. The attendance sucks. Nobody makes any money. With us it has always been a waste of time. I'd rather not waste anybody's time, ESPECIALLY MINE...

When I gig I do it first and foremost for the money. I HAVE to be rewarded for my hard work.

Wow...

What a sh*tty attitude. Total mercenary.

If your "first and foremost" reason for playing isn't for the love of music, you need to find something else to do. Seriously.

Man, I hate guys like you. You poison the waters for the rest of us who actually give a rip about the art. I had a guy like you in my band last summer. Sucked the fun right out of rehearsals and gigs.

Sorry Bob, but that's the way I feel.

When I gig I do it first and foremost for the money. I HAVE to be rewarded for my hard work.

Wow...

What a sh*tty attitude. Total mercenary.

If your "first and foremost" reason for playing isn't for the love of music, you need to find something else to do. Seriously.

Man, I hate guys like you. You poison the waters for the rest of us who actually give a rip about the art. I had a guy like you in my band last summer. Sucked the fun right out of rehearsals and gigs.

Sorry Bob, but that's the way I feel.

Theres some fringe benefits that go with playing ha ha

Sorry Bob, but this is just the samo samo from where I sit, my own band has probalby set our price too high so we arent playing as much as we did a yr or so ago. The Memphis market a lot of the place wont give more than $150 to $250 these days. I think my first paying gig was at the SOmerville Country CLub back in 1978, we were a trio and not a very good one I might add, and we would get $300 a gig and played every couple of monthes. So 32 yrs ago we were generating as much per man at a gig than most bands can expect today. Maybe if everyone just said that we wont work for less than say $800, Imean every band then the ones that are really worthy of the price might get it every now and then. Theres really no answer to this thread, in the end if you want to get out and play you probably have to take whatever someone will offer, be it the door or a guarantee.

When I gig I do it first and foremost for the money. I HAVE to be rewarded for my hard work.

Wow...

What a sh*tty attitude. Total mercenary.

With all due respect...

I fundamentally disagree.

That whole "playing for the love of the art" thing just doesn't fly with me anymore. You know what? I love programming. There's a reason I've been successful at it. It's because I throw myself into it in a big way. All the best programmers I've ever known really love their work.

Try not paying them what they're worth and see how many of 'em show up for work.

Programming is every bit as creative as music.

So, why should musicians be expected to "play for the love" and not expect to be paid a fair amount of money? You can argue all you want about what constitutes "fair". Supply and demand is an apropos principal.

But if you aren't expecting to be paid what you're worth, you screw over every musician in your area who does.

Look at it like this: being paid for making music makes it a little easier for me to continue making music, which I do love to do. So I like getting paid.

That whole "playing for the love of the art" thing just doesn't fly with me anymore. You know what? I love programming. There's a reason I've been successful at it. It's because I throw myself into it in a big way. All the best programmers I've ever known really love their work.

Are you a musician full time? or are you a computer programmer?

Well duh, everyone likes to get paid. But it should not be your primary reason for playing music. You're not a professional musician, you're just an amateur who gigs occasionally and sometimes makes some side cash. That goes for nearly everyone on this site. You really can't expect more than that.

You, like CF and myself, program computers for a living. But if there were so many programmers that some were willing to do it free/cheap we would be out of a job. It's just supply and demand.

Good luck each and every one of you if you think the club is going to pay YOU a set salary when there are 40 million other bands that are willing and able to do it for the door.... I know in la la land, that's awesome....but it ain't happening here no matter how much you think you are worth!

Most of the musicians I know that have either a bachelors in music, or even a masters for that fact, make their money teaching in a classroom or lessons, or working as a session musician and have a certification for sound engineering. The ones that I know who do Performance full time makes only ends meet doing wedding bands, period cover bands or have been lucky breaking through the scene. You gotta do it for the love of music man.