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#9462 by mistermikev
Thu Jun 14, 2007 10:57 pm
MacLeod wrote:"Page brought so many different feels to the rock gtr stage... he really broadened the horizon... Page did the first finger tap. "
No he didn't. Lots of people were trying to finger tap in the 60's and even more in the 70s. The only thing that matters is that it was Eddie that brought it to the attention of the masses. Jimmy isnt even in the top thousand guitarists on this planet.


Don't get me wrong... I don't like page. I am admittedly influenced by him... but he is and was sloppy. He is and was also influential, and to declare him anything less than a potential candidate for the best would be a pretty short sighted view of "whos who of guitarists".
Name a song recorded before heartbreaker that had fingertapping in it. I'm not challenging you... I'm asking you to enlighten me. I will go look it up and would be surprised and delighted to be wrong.
It's not conventional finger tapping (the tap and bend) but it is (as far as I know) the very first recording of a tap that made the popular music charts (Heartbreaker).





MacLeod wrote:"Vai played with more passion than any other on "passion and warfare"... His modal choices were new and exiting."
About as passionate as a robot. Technically gifted but both feel and emotion have escaped him unfortunately

Sure, Gimore plays with more feel... but to say songs like "blue powder" lacked emotion... suggests you didn't listen to it ever. AFA technical... I think steve morse/albert lee/chet atkins have the best techniques...
Let me also point out that with a few possible exceptions (flexible) -I hate most of what steve vai has done. But many consider passion and warfare to be one of the best instrumental albums ever... and if there is a parallel to vais simple but beautiful use of modes... please point that person out to me (and don't say joe pass or al dimeola or any jazz guy... vai gently expands the modal pallet for ya... metheny and such throw it out the window and start over).





MacLeod wrote:Even Dave Evans from U2 is technically poor but invented a style and sound all of his own.




so you think the guy from U2 is the BEST GTR PLAYER EVER? Invented a style... no. I've played many a u2 tune from sunday bloody sunday to bullet to blue sky... this guy is mediocre at BEST. Outright copying cleche riffs stolen shamelessly from 10 years of rock that came before them.
I can hardly take you seriously when you point to an example of someone who has absolutely ZERO technical ability. I think the technical ability to play the instrument has to be there first... and perhaps page doesn't demonstrate that great of a technique... but then jeff beck or john scofield or robert johnson or eric johnson or george benson or larry carlton or jeff watson or brad gillis or scott henderson or djengo reinhardt or BBKing or srv or knopfler or les paul or ry cooder or ralph machio for god's sake... anyone but the edge! I mean friggin Bryan Adams before the edge... (hehe)

#9463 by mistermikev
Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:09 pm
Stephen is a wise individual. You can read it in his post.
I pointed out blue powder before I even read your post(honestly).
I see your comments about the edge (u2) and respect your opinion based on the wisdom in your post.
I don't see any harm in trying to come to some sort of consensus on "who is the best". I think it would have to be someone who was popular on the radio, popular with guitarists, and took art of playing guitar and added something to it that changed it for everyone.

I would just like to point out that Eric Clapton would get my vote for "worste guitarist ever" based on how overrated he is. The edge would win a close second for me.

#9470 by PhrAiLGuitarist
Fri Jun 15, 2007 3:20 pm
MrMikeV wrote:Stephen is a wise individual. You can read it in his post.
I pointed out blue powder before I even read your post(honestly).
I see your comments about the edge (u2) and respect your opinion based on the wisdom in your post.
I don't see any harm in trying to come to some sort of consensus on "who is the best". I think it would have to be someone who was popular on the radio, popular with guitarists, and took art of playing guitar and added something to it that changed it for everyone.

I would just like to point out that Eric Clapton would get my vote for "worste guitarist ever" based on how overrated he is. The edge would win a close second for me.


Good call with the Blue Powder reference! That's definitely a Vai classic that no one should miss. About U2's guitarist: I haven't listened to them much past their greatest hits, so as per their older hits, I've found his writing and sense of note choice to have a good bit of feel, personally. I like the mood he creates with his chords and the mix of delay, etc. Sure, he's not a technically complex guitarist by any means but... I don’t know... I've really changed my perception of what's tolerable for me as a listener. I definitely find value in things these days that I would've scoffed at a few years ago. A prime example for you is I've gone from listening to ONLY Metallica, Megadeth and Pantera to listening to everything from Sting and Seal to Meshuggah and everything in between, lol. I must say that I have the least level of tolerance with listening to power metal, punk, country and most rap these days, though but that's neither here nor there. I just wish some people would give more music a try sometimes, you know? I really feel like people hinder themselves by limiting what they find enjoyable!! I used to be the same way, so I'm speaking from the perspective of having to learn to have an open mind. I'm generally stating that, by the way. I'm not referring to anyone in particular right now.

Yeah, I can see the fun in it for some people to discern "the greatest" within any genre of music or type of musical instrument and I often forget that there are many, many people whose musical vocabulary isn't as open or broad as the one I feel privileged to be open to. Here again, I used to have a favorite and I used to think there was a greatest. You know who that was for me? Kirk Hammet. :lol: It was when I first started playing and I just thought he was the greatest guitarist ever. At some point, I came across Yngwie Malmsteen and I remember sitting there wondering how in the world someone could play a guitar like that. I was more confused than anything, lol. :shock:

But yes, getting back to the point of discussion, I, personally, can't pick a greatest and to be honest, I also can't pick a worst! I totally understand what you're saying about overrated guitarists, though... there are plenty of them and I could absolutely sit here with you and probably agree on a large number of guitarists who are overrated but once again, with the general consensus feeling that the people we feel are overrated are actually amazing, one such as us can't help but sit back and wonder if we're actually the ones missing the boat on something where that musician is concerned, lol. You know what I mean? It's just all relative but nothing (figuratively speaking) pisses me off more than Joe Schmoe with his snide remarks and matter-of-fact opinions coming in and berating someone who likes a musician that they don't. Classy opinions and valid reasons for not liking a musician go over a LOT better than "oh, they suck giant balls," you know? Much like how you did, Mike. You presented your opinions with more substance and that's what I think debates such as these should be about.

Anyone with one-liners should have their opinions null and voided, I think. lol. All they're good for is upsetting people because, hey... let's face it; we're going to defend the music we love. I don't think a lot of people realize exactly WHY they get so offended but just think of it in these terms: If you love music in ANY capacity, when you're walking around and doing something, you're probably thinking of music subconsciously (you don't know you are, basically, but you are). The music you love and the songs that get stuck in your head, sometimes, we make emotional connections to songs. We listen to certain things when we are happy and we listen to certain things when we are sad. Sometimes, the things we listen to are stress relief or we just listen to music just to listen to it. Regardless, what we listen to... the music we love... we tie it all in with life experiences and sometimes we build memories that tie to songs. You know, "when I hear this song, I think about yadda, yadda, yadda."

If there's a musician you love and you find value in their music, you're allowing that music and musician into your life. The most deeply rooted feelings and thoughts; you find ways to relate to the music you listen to. So, when someone comes around and they say "such and such SUCKS," they're basically offending you and telling you that you suck. Everything you think and feel and have invested in the feelings and emotions of the music from that artist is suddenly being insulted by this random person who you have NO emotional link to, so it's almost as if someone is just randomly knocking on your door and telling you that you are a lesser human being than them. Your experiences and the music you listen to doesn't matter but it clearly matters to you, so what are you going to do? You're going to get upset and defensive about it.

Now, on the surface, we think "I LOVE this band!" and that's pretty much what we defend but I believe it's much deeper than that. I believe there are issues that need to be addressed with WHY we get so defensive and how people with brash opinions are essentially inconsiderate as hell and are incredibly selfish individuals. Anyway, the aforementioned is merely personal opinion. I have an affinity for music in which I've only found VERY few people who share the same level of thought but I'd really like to put it out there for people to try to understand more exactly WHY they like what they like and WHY they get so defensive and upset when someone puts down a band they love!

Did any of that make sense or am I just type-type-typing away for no reason? lol. Please let the debating commence...

-Stephen

#9472 by mistermikev
Fri Jun 15, 2007 4:09 pm
"So, when someone comes around and they say 'such and such SUCKS,' they're basically offending you and telling you that you suck."
I usually try not to take it that way... but rather try to explain my position and see if I can get any sort of coherence out of someone whos opinion I don't understand. I am always willing to be convinced... but it takes some convincing.
The edge is a gtr player I know very well (not personally - stylistically).
The guy didn't exactly reinvent the pick slide on bullet to blue sky... it is the most clishe gtr riff I can think of! Now it fits the song so...I give him credit for that.
Sunday Bloody Sunday is a week d-chord riff with a walking bassnote... a deviation of the same idea found in a ton of gtr songs, but specifically from led zeppelins "thank you" to "stairway to heavon" - if you've ever played either song you know just what I mean.
I agree there is something to his style that is unique... but the guy is hardly a contender for "best gtr player". That is my only argument.
My intention is to get closer to the truth of the matter... if we're playing the game "who's the best" then lets debate it and ask each other to justify our opinions. I am not the least bit offended by any opinion... and I respect them all... to a greater or lesser degree -based on how well someone defends them... without getting upset.
So I guess the "best guitarplayer" would have to be someone that the MAJORITY of GUITARISTS would agree is the best...
again "who would that be?"

#9512 by Chano
Sun Jun 17, 2007 6:26 pm
OK all, I'm just an older fat guy who knows my playing will never make anyone's list. (lol)

Now for my humble 2 cents.

Growing up as a child in the 70's I can remember being blown away by Santana, Page, Beck, Clapton, Blackmore, Hendrix, and Frehley(yes the guy in KISS), to name a few. These cats had their own voices and they inspired me to play. I've always been impressed by the great songwriting and production of Lennon and McCartny's lil pop band, You can't tell me that Scotty Moore wasn't a great player, and if you haven't heard of him tis certainly a shame. In my teen years, The 80's, So many great players, Rhodes, Van Halen, Bettencourt, Hagar,(yes Sammy has some great chops too) to name but a few, inspired me to take my playing on to greater heights. The 90's and even into today I find guitarists that impress and inspire me. My point would be, does it matter what any list says??? More to the point, Who inspires you??? Music is a precious gift, not an Olympic compitition, and those of us who aspire to play should be proud. Fewer and fewer people are taking up music seriously.

My greatest inspiration to play guitar was a man named John Butler, He played a Gibson archtop acoustic with the f holes. He played rythym and blues. His phrasing and legato technique was simply mesmerizing. I've never heard music played with so much soul and feeling. To this day I look up to this man and his playing. Now don't bother with the search engines cause you'll never find him. John Butler was the janitor at my middle school. He never recorded. He worked an "honest" job and put his 3 kids through college. He taught me my first chords and scales in exchange for helping him clean the classrooms.

Now let me put this question to all of you.

Who do (or will) YOU inspire
Last edited by Chano on Sun Jun 17, 2007 11:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.

#9514 by Chano
Sun Jun 17, 2007 6:56 pm
For Your consideration,

Go to YouTube, look up Jose Feliciano. (Yeah the guy who sings "I wanna wish you a Merry Christmas")

View Malaguena and Flight of the bumble bee.

Not bad for a blind pop singer! No amp, no pickup, no effects, NO PICK!!!!

paste this in the search and view;
Jerry Reed And Chet Atkins Jerrys Breakdown

Pretty good for the guy who played a truck driver in Smokey and the Bandit. By the way that was Chet Atkins using sweep picking in 1975.

Also; paste and view
Roy Clark - 1969 - Alabama Jubilee
The Hee Haw guy tearing it up on the clean channel, showing style, technique, and humour, live. Groundbreaking for 1969. Talk about underated.

Now maybe you younger guys won't scoff so loud when your granpa says "Oh (insert name here) was a great guitarist."

#9525 by Christair
Mon Jun 18, 2007 11:54 am
Nick McCabe of the Verve and John Squire of The Stone Roses have gotta be up there!! :idea:

#9528 by darockguitar1
Mon Jun 18, 2007 12:26 pm
Nice!

#9635 by HoyHoy
Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:46 am
Vesa wrote:
Django Reinhart...
That's where it starts for me, the rest,
well I could mix it up, too many to mention for a long list,
after him.

(look him up in search/or 'Youtube' video)


:wink: -Vesa.


I agree. Django was the best and influenced everyone after him.

#9709 by PhrAiLGuitarist
Mon Jun 25, 2007 4:56 pm
HoyHoy wrote:
Vesa wrote:
Django Reinhart...
That's where it starts for me, the rest,
well I could mix it up, too many to mention for a long list,
after him.

(look him up in search/or 'Youtube' video)


:wink: -Vesa.


I agree. Django was the best and influenced everyone after him.


See... now, what does that even mean, anyway? "Django...influenced everyone after him." What does that mean? Does that mean that Django influenced every single guitarist on this earth after he picked up and left his mark in music as a guitarist? Does that mean that we should say Django influenced everyone after him but the people who influenced Django don't matter? Do you see what I'm getting at? Yes, Django was amazing but he influenced everyone after him? In what manner? If you mean inspirational as far as his unbelievable talent to play what he played, first of all, and to do it with his disability, secondly, then yes, he was inspirational in those regards but if you mean that Django has a direct influence on all guitar playing that exists sans his time, then that is absurd. I mean, I know we all have favorites but good Lord, what a ridiculous statement!

I'm sorry if I come across as brash sometimes with these things but I just don't understand how in the world someone can comfortably have ONE favorite particular musician who stands above all else. I think it's both frustrating and fascinating.

I mean, it's like... yes, yes... Let's all thank Django for grunge! I'm sure Kurt Cobain knew who Django was. Oh, wait... or is it The Beatles who were the most influential? Django or The Beatles, Django or The Beatles, which one is it... DOH! We've been wrong this whole time! It's actually Mozart! Grunge is the direct product of jazz, classical and classic pop rock! :lol: This is what happens when people argue favorites. When meshed, the perspective just doesn't make any sense. I'm all for people having favorites but I think people could benefit from being objectional about their favorite. First of all, you're not going to get EXTREMELY pissed off when someone comes along and berates you for liking them and secondly, you'll be more apt to discover a new band who you could likely call your new favorite. We're all loyal to something but sometimes, it seems to be to a fault. I'm as such with music as a whole. Because I'm loyal to music as a whole, I'm not open to picking a favorite or most influential... But that's my cross to bear, I suppose. =)

-PhrAiLGuitarist

#9767 by MacLeod
Wed Jun 27, 2007 4:47 pm
The trouble with picking a best guitarist of all time is that its extremely subjectiuve isnt it. Whoi is the best jazzer, Rocker, Punk, Prog player, Country player etc etc etc.

Show me one person who is the best all all those and I'll show my ass. Every genre has its own brilliant players and none of them are any better than any other because they are all individuals with their own style, sound and technique.

#9769 by mistermikev
Wed Jun 27, 2007 5:33 pm
"and I'll show my ass. " how in the hell do you figure that is incentive?
I think ppul get the idea that when you pick a "best" that it is written in stone...
your best today is not your best tomarrow... all anyone can ask is that you attempt to define for yourself who you would place at the very top of your hierarchy this week... and that's the best you can do.
then once you've done that perhaps you can influence others by stateing why you feel that particular one person belongs at the top.
to simply try and disenfranchise the idea of picking the best is the act of someone who can't back up any choice they would make...
don't worry... we're not going to induct anyone into the RandR hall of fame based on these opinions in here...

"none of them are any better than any others" - so the edge is just as good as ynwie malmsteen at playing gtr? -see how stupid that sounds?
I admire that you are driving at the concept of "no one else sounds like you"... "each voice has it's place"... etc... and I agree... but clearly yngwie malmsteen has a superior technique on the instrument... to deny that suggests one doesn't know anything about technique.
Would yngwie sound good as the gtr player for U2? Absolutely not.
Is the edge the greatest guitar player ever? far from it.

#9782 by PhrAiLGuitarist
Wed Jun 27, 2007 9:36 pm
MacLeod wrote:...and I'll show my ass.


Wait... Isn't that what you do in a majority of your posts anyway? lol I'm just messin' with you. =)

-Stephen

#9824 by N1GHTM4R3GR33N
Thu Jun 28, 2007 6:10 pm
what about nuno bettencourt or marty friedman

#9834 by PhrAiLGuitarist
Thu Jun 28, 2007 8:24 pm
CaT killer wrote:what about nuno bettencourt or marty friedman


Both incredibly unique and innovative guitarists.

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