General Music Chat

Don't know about you all. But I was mine regularly.

And yes, Craig, to me it IS pandering, & beneath me.

But again, the real issue is...

Can you accept that, to THEM, it is NOT PANDERING, but heartfelt and natural?

I really don't think I can, cuz it all just seems so frikken contrived, ya know? I don't like ppl trying to program my responses with artificially induced "feelings."

I really don't think I can, cuz it all just seems so frikken contrived, ya know? I don't like ppl trying to program my responses with artificially induced "feelings."

Well, again, while I understand what you are saying, I don't think "YOU" are their target audience. If they are writing songs that CATER (not pander) to the emotions their audience has, and if the artist has those same emotions... They are all happy with the arrangement.

It's just "YOU" having an issue over it, and they don't really know, that you are here bitchin' about it on Bandmix... they just happily go about their own business.

Kind of like those deer of yours.

It "FEELS" intentional, like they are just mockng you... but you know... it really isn't that way, right?

LOL

Actually, from the ppl I talk to, I am not alone. There's a lot of ppl that don't buy into the formulae, Craig.

I don't think it's such a shame, either. I applaud ppl who can see through the smog that's out there. It doesn't mean any of us are anti-American, we're just anti-slogans for the sake of slogans, against those who would tweak us to make a buck with stuff that has no real substance.

I say that if you wanna make a patriotic song, go ahead & make it as beautiful a thing as you can, but don't stuff random patriotic phrases into a song that has no patriotic root just to push someone's buttons. That reeks of propaganda to me, & I find it offensive.

Philby I like the song where Toby Keith says we will put a boot up your ASS ! you might not think that is intelligent but I think its GENIOUS!

Actually, from the ppl I talk to, I am not alone. There's a lot of ppl that don't buy into the formulae, Craig.

I don't think it's such a shame, either. I applaud ppl who can see through the smog that's out there. It doesn't mean any of us are anti-American, we're just anti-slogans for the sake of slogans, against those who would tweak us to make a buck with stuff that has no real substance.

I say that if you wanna make a patriotic song, go ahead & make it as beautiful a thing as you can, but don't stuff random patriotic phrases into a song that has no patriotic root just to push someone's buttons. That reeks of propaganda to me, & I find it offensive.

Geeze, I really hate to say this. But I agree. A lot of country music is pandering. And songwriters and producers are sluts. Meaning, they profile a bass line of a hit song. Then they try to patch that into every other song until it doesn't fly anymore. Like catch phrases. Kiss, Breath, angels, and on and on and on.... And I do truly hate the cutesy double meanings and catch phrases. Ever notice that every male singer sounded exactly the same on most stuff? You had to wait for the DJ to identify them.

Love the hot pickers, and the sneaky licks, melodic, clean, accurate.

Mr. Slacker G you are certainly entitled to your opinion. I have to ask what phase of country music are you talking about. I listened to your tracks today. I think they are good but in the words of whom ever posted them, a little over rated.

I must say Please don't sell out your own genre.

Actually, from the ppl I talk to, I am not alone. There's a lot of ppl that don't buy into the formulae, Craig.

In saying "you", I certainly didn't mean to suggest that there are not others who feel as you do. Of course there are. Jimmy would probably be eye to eye to you with this one, that doesn't negate my point.

The people who feel that way, will "in general" not be big fans of Country music to begin with. This is an argument you can't win, because you are holding up YOUR personal views against the MILLIONS of people who buy these albums, and LOVE these songs.

Why would you even argue about it?

The fact that the people BUY what they LOVE, means, that they WANT what the artists are producing.

Your criticism ultimately is this...

"How dare country artists write songs with lyrics that their audiences want?"

What you are then doing instead, is being defensive.

"I have just as much patriotism as these people do... I just see patriotism differently than they do."

That, is a legitimate argument.

But no one is questioning YOUR patriotism, because you don't wear it on your sleeve. Why question THEIRS because THEY DO wear it on their sleeves?

Our forefathers would have never had rousing arguments and debates, if America was "one size fits all". It took compromise, and respect for MANY VISIONS of what freedom and democracy really means.

You want respect for your brand of patriotism?

That's fair.

But you should also pay the same respect back.

When an artist believes in certain things, and writes music for LIKE MINDED individuals... this is not only good business, but they are able to keep their beliefs intact while doing it.

You shouldn't reduce that to a derogatory dismissal of "pandering"

If giving fans what they want is "pandering" then I suggest that ALL ARTISTS do it, or else consider their music to be a HOBBY, because it certainly wouldn't be a career.

I do think the modernization and homogenization of country music over the last decade has made it more listenable to a larger audience. This sort of dates back to Shania Twain’s record from 1997 called Come on Over that fused country with arena-ready pop/rock. She aimed to change the style and sound of country and proudly boasted on the record sleeve that Come on Over was a full hour of music (before that most popular country albums contained 9-11 songs and were about a half hour long). Also, the current country sound is just the latest thing and will pass like anything else.

Also, it might just be a popular culture thing with people. I’ve noticed many people (especially around my age and younger) who listen to modern pop-country also listen to the equally homogenized pop-rap. For example, my sister listens to both and she’s a very intelligent, musically-inclined person. But she actually enjoys the music while I think it’s all obviously lacking in real substance. Though I can’t define with words what “good music” is, I like to think I can hear the difference. But it’s all opinion anyway… And record companies will keep putting together over-produced crap for the public as long as there is a huge audience to support it (and there definitely is, unfortunately).

To my ears popular country, rap and rock started going downhill quality-wise in the late ‘90s/early 2000s. There are exceptions of course, but on the whole I don’t think there are many quality new bands out there on popular TV/radio stations. Also, I think the slick sounding over-production of modern music kinda kills the sound. But that is just my opinion. That’d be great if more people wanted to hear quality, earthy, real music.

And back to popular culture – part of the downward spiral in quality art in America (movies, art, etc. included too) might have to do with people feeling like they need to be barraged with over-production (on record, with sound systems, with CGI in movies for example, etc.). Something that sounds or looks “under-produced” or “low quality” by today’s standards is usually ignored by young people because simply “it sounds/looks old”. Also, young people (myself included) didn’t live through albums releases like Revolver or Sgt. Pepper… So for many going back and listening to important older works won’t have the same impact they once did because we grew up in a time where pretty much anything goes. So really the only groundbreaking and shock value people have been able to offer in art in recent decades is just unprecedented amounts of violence, sex, expletives, genre-bending, etc. Just a very low-brow, trashy culture. I don’t feel apart of it and probably never will.

Ummm my mind feels tired right now… I’m sure I’ll think of more later… Good topic!

Mr. Slacker G you are certainly entitled to your opinion. I have to ask what phase of country music are you talking about. I listened to your tracks today. I think they are good but in the words of whom ever posted them, a little over rated.

I must say Please don't sell out your own genre.

I'm a picker. I'm not a song writer. Evidently you haven't heard as many bad country songs as I have. I admit I do pick with a country influence. But I already stated why earlier. And I see that quite a few others have said the same about country lyrics. But most music will have far more bad than good lyrics.

As far as my songs. if you were old enough, you would see that I play Rockabilly. I seldom play any country songs. If you read ANY of my posts, I alway warn people that my vocals may hurt their ears.
I'll sing just to get to play lead and add some harmony with my guitar and get an idea down.
If you're playing what you are listening to today, you aren't playing country music either.

When I pick, I do not pick country songs as instrumentals. I quit listening to country music when the Crest White Strip execs decided to put something else in country musics place and call that country music. I'm not selling myself out or selling anyone out.
When I listen to music, I never listen to country. I like movie sound tracks and fusion. That is the extent of my listening.

New country is rockabilly with tacky lyrics in a lot of cases. I am not trying to be smart. I just can not listen to country music. I have tried. but after about two songs I'm almost falling over stuff to shut the radio off.

But in all fairness I seldom listen to any music. When I want to hear music, I play my guitar. I guess I play more old standards when I play instrumentals.

Now if someone writes anything positive or negative in a review about my stuff, what can I say? What does that have to do with me?

I am the one who posted them, and I am the one who always warns people that it may be harmful to their hearing. However, I am curious as to where you heard my stuff was "overrated". I do not recall using that word. Where did you read that?

The only one I didn't post was the YouTube Video. And that was simply a Canon video camera test of my new camera. That vid is so bad, in my opinion, I was going to delete it. However, a rocker friend asked me for it. And it eventually ended up on YouTube. I did not post that. And if you listen to it, it damn sure ain't country.

Below is as country as it gets for me. If you heard most of my songs on the first link of my signature, they are not country.

These are the "Most" country I do. And they aren't quite all the way there. Were they not named, I wonder if you could even recognize them.

http://soundclick.com/share?songid=1403561
http://soundclick.com/share?songid=2368628
http://soundclick.com/share?songid=1595166

However, I won't push it with anyone who plays a Strat.

"1) WHAT HAS MADE COUNTRY KING? (I now hear more country stations than rock in many places)

"2) WHY HAVE OTHERS RESISTED IT? (mock it - don't give it a chance)"

Hey, YOU asked these questions, Craig. I'm merely answering them, & you keep telling me that my answers are wrong...LOL...I'm saying that they aren't wrong at all, but a legitimate way of looking at country, & lots of ppl do it all the time.

When a country composer writes himself into a corner, & needs a phrase to fill out a song, it often seems to me like he has a little notebook where he keeps random phrases about god or country or simpler times that he uses because they are just pleasing to his genre. He doesn't need to believe anything at all, cuz as long as he has a few lines in there that'll tweak someone's heart string, he'll have a hit. Hey, & while he's at it, he oughtta have a few lines in there that are anti-liberal. Yeah, that works, too! (Right, Toby Keith?)

It's easy & it's cheesy as a 2 dollar hooker, but this audience will continually buy into it time & time again & call it high art, when it is anything but.

Ppl that wear thier patriotism or thier religion (or anything at all) on thier sleeves (you know, the ppl that believe what they believe & don't need or want any education to get them to actually question anything) are the easiest to pander to. Give 'em a simple slogan & they'll buy into it as the core of the song & swear it has such value, but, as a song writer, myself, I see what's happening, & I find it basically laughable.

"If giving fans what they want is "pandering" then I suggest that ALL ARTISTS do it, or else consider their music to be a HOBBY, because it certainly wouldn't be a career."

That's your solution. For the rest of us, it's quite fine to stay well away from country, & laugh at the laughable that's inherent in the genre - the attitude, the slogans, the repeated riffs & themes.

There's a whole world of ppl out there who can appreciate quality music without these aspects, & they're a legitimate audience who buy music, too.

I AM surprized at how touchy the country-lovin' ppl are about thier music. Klugmo is an example of that, where he gets all riled about ppl putting down his genre. I don't see that as much with other genres, or to his extent.

Even when a country artist makes a comment about things he dislikes within the genre, he gets comments like this one, from JH - "I must say Please don't sell out your own genre."

I'm sorry, but that is definitely not what's happening. But this audience is the most judgemental I've ever seen. It must be tough to be a country artist & have an opinion that's out of the norm, cuz these ppl will see it as treason or something!

Hey phil, I dont have a problem that you have an opinion. Its just that you seem to resent the fact that so many people love what you dont like. You have said that you play Bluegrass, Country, but you have such a sharp tonge about it. Is it the political lyrics or the religeous lyrics, or just Toby. Do you really think that all Country fans have a low mentality and thats why they buy it. Why cant you realize simply that it is fun, its danceable, catchy, humorous, inspiring sometimes, conective and Buzzily and above all profitable. Take a half step back and look at it. Realize that theres nothin there that other genres dont do too. Mayby not to the same degree but all in all a lot of people enjoy it because it is valid and it brings a smile and a laugh to a lot of people. You see I think thats really the point , its very conective and can get real personal and can touch on a lot of subjects in a funny or serious way. Like some and not like some. Isn't that true with all music areas?

Spice girls sold millions, Susan boyle????? average singer sold millions coz shes ugly, i could go on and on but i wont, sales mean nothing, Zappa? Mars Volta? cynic? every virtuoso instrumentalist on the planet? they dont sell 20 zillion records so Taylor Swift must be a better, ever thought of saying "yeah it's crap but i like it"?? you should, every derogatory comment people here are saying is just plain true, i said it before, i dont dislike all of it, it's impossible to make THAT MANY songs and them all be shite, personally i could listen to Shania Twain all day, but it's still shite, generic unimaginitive and uninspiring accept to those who inspire to very little, mere copyists, i don't disrespect the skill of the players, but wonder why they play that crap, oh yeah MONEY, Celine Dion, Micheal Bolton, both a couple of the best vocalists ever, yet they do the same old ballady crap coz thats where the money is, imagine Bolton in proper rock band, or Dion in evanescence? just an idea, always thought MJ should go metal : )

I recently sang that damned "Live Like You Were Dying," by Tim McGraw. It was challenging in its way, BUT - dropping the "I saw an eagle flying" line in there was almost too cheesy to cover, imho, & I wouldn't ever have sung it if it weren't for a wake for a dead young serviceman, who said it was his favorite song. (Well, I got paid to do it, too. I felt like such a whore!)

I will not sing it again, cuz I think it's insulting my audience to pull crap like that. I'm the same way about much of Mr Keith's works.

If the material doesn't reach me, I don't do it. That's pretty easy to understand, isn't it? It just ain't for me.

When I see ppl falling for that stuff, it leads me to make certain judgements about them that may or may not be true, but we're talking about what's in MY headbone, here, concerning the material & the ppl who fall for it, hook line & stinker.

Most of the ppl I know have these same feelings about the genre. I don't even care if it's "right" or not, really, cuz the way it appears to me is just that obvious. (So I guess that makes me one of them uneducated folk who prefer to stick with thier preconceptions, too, eh? See? I AM a blue-collar guy, after all!)

IS Toby Keith a total right-wing violent jerk? I dunno & I don't care. I just don't like his stuff. IS Tim McGraw, like, the ultimate patriot who truly feels every single oddly-placed sentiment he puts into his songs? It doesn't matter in the end. His songs sound contrived & I don't go for that button-pushing-for-the-knee-jerk-emotions crap, myself. That's all.

When I find myself writing in that vein, I put a stop to it, cuz I don't wanna be associated with that sort of thing. And yes, it HAS happened, when I was writing, a time or two.

DO remember that I'm not condemning ALL country music, here. There's much that is wonderful & celebratory & just plain fun, & I will continue to play that sorta thing. I will not pander to the lowest common denominator like SOME of the artists do, though, by singing divisive or racist material, or by dumping in superfluous material that detracts from the song's meaning just to get a tear or to get the hair to rise on someone's neck...

Your vast audience must appreciate that very much.