General Music Chat

Lyrics first? Music first? Together? Do you always colaborate? Do you have to be high to write well? Do you write songs but never do anything with them? Have you written a million songs that all suck? Are you a genious writer with no funds to develope your songs? Are you your own worst enemy with writing because you think your work will be stolen by everyone? Have you writen a couple songs but don't have the time to get good. Are you talented but your age holds you back somehow.? Do you write music but it always seems to sound like it belongs in the 80s or 70s? Are you the only one that thinks you're good? Are the people around you just being polite and suportive instead of honest? Can you write your ass off but can't put a demo together to save it? Are you one of these people or something else?

I'm something else. Hopefully you'll find out how something else someday soon...

Music 1st. Then I fight w/;yrics until they seem to make some sort of sense to me, Then I try it out on my friends. Then I play it out.

99% of the time it goes over well. Sometimes I get requests for it.

Never have the funds to do anything with it other than play it live cuz I suck at finances.

Geez Klug I think I've done all of the above lol.

Seriously I prefer collaboration myself. I've produced over 120 tracks which resulted in 20 Cds over the past 23 years. I like the control from writing on my own but I like the better results of working with someone. The ideal writing formula for me seems to be receiving completed words which I set to music. I've also written words for existing music but they never seem to turn out as well. Just my three cents.

With me its a switch I turn on or off in my head. I will sit down and find a few chords that I like then decide on a topic ( usually something about Love ) then write both at the same time. When I reach the end I rarely change much. This process can take 20mins to 2weeks. I will continue to play it in my head for days afterward, looking for some way to change it and make it better until I start a new one.

As a guitar player, I write the guitar first. I write all the parts out and then work on arrangement. For me it usually starts with a chord progression or arpeggio or some kind of riff, and I have no idea if that's a chorus or verse or bridge or what until I started trying to play off of it.

Once I have that first thing on guitar, I try and figure out variations - other chord progressions that sound similar but not the same, and still fit. Transitional pieces, etc.

Then, once I feel like I have enough different "parts" I start arranging them. If it's an instrumental piece, the arrangement can be loose and more playful; less rigid. If it's intended to be a progressive piece, I'll probably spend more time on the arrangement and through the arrangement process, I'll probably write additional parts to fill in some gaps or switch things up.

If it's a standard piece that I intend to put vocals on, then I'll try and put it into some kind of standard verse/chorus arrangement, and the variety will come out of bridges and false endings. Depending on the song, I will try and find a place for a solo or solos (a piece I just recently wrote has no guitar solos, and that's actually rare for me).

Once all that is done, then I will reach out to band mates to collaborate on bass and drums and vocals. I may write lyrics, I may not. Depends on how personal the song feels to me at that point in time, when it's still just guitar.

But for me - I like to have the song arrangement "done" with all the guitars before I collaborate with my band. To me, arrangement means as much as anything and gives a song an "identity", and that's the thing I really like to put my stamp on.

For the Talking Heads album "Naked" they did exactly that CF. The band wrote all of the music and arranged it before Byrne wrote any of the lyrics and it worked. So there's no one right way to do it.

Lyrics first? Music first? Together? Do you always colaborate? Do you have to be high to write well? Do you write songs but never do anything with them? Have you written a million songs that all suck? Are you a genious writer with no funds to develope your songs? Are you your own worst enemy with writing because you think your work will be stolen by everyone? Have you writen a couple songs but don't have the time to get good. Are you talented but your age holds you back somehow.? Do you write music but it always seems to sound like it belongs in the 80s or 70s? Are you the only one that thinks you're good? Are the people around you just being polite and suportive instead of honest? Can you write your ass off but can't put a demo together to save it? Are you one of these people or something else?

I've written a few songs but don't have time to get good or record it. I'm a family man, so I go to work in the morning, come home at night, spend time with the family, then after everyone is asleep (around 10:00 p.m.) I practice til 2:00 A.M. or so, then rinse and repeat. Can't record because it's too loud that late at night, so the age/opportunity isn't exactly there at this point in my life. Oh, and I get NO support from anyone in my life, except whatever tidbits of encouragement I can glean off this board. So thanks for being here - I enjoy reading everyone's take on musical approaches and threads like this one in particular I pay very close attention to.

I try to have a guitar within reach or a piece of paper or even use my cell phone voice note thingie to save melodies, not that im any good at it all, but I think when and when ever inspiration hits you shoulod grab it and hang onto it. Most of my stuff comes from pure emotion of some sort.

Good Luck

I will add that in order to develop yourself if you get and idea even one that isnt that good try to develop it all the way thru to conclusion, that will make the process easier over time.

I was watching Brad Pitt the other night in that movie Inglorious Basterds, he was cuttin that swastika in a guye forehead and one of his crew said your getting really good at that. Brad Pitt said 'You dont get to Carnegie Hall without Practice" songwriting takes practice

I will add that in order to develop yourself if you get and idea even one that isnt that good try to develop it all the way thru to conclusion, that will make the process easier over time.

When you lay out a song, is there a general rule you apply in terms of how many bars you commit to an intro, how many for the chorus, how many for the song, and where you place each? I'm struggling with composition in terms of general guidelines for structuring a song. I know rules are meant to be broken in music, but it seems there is a general approach.

I think that I usually work from a lyrical concept...once I find something that I want to make a statement about, I begin bouncing words around until one sentence feels solid. Then I find a melody from that-building from the ground up, so to speak. I mentioned working simultaneously in a previous post, and this is kind of what I mean. While I intially start with some lyrics, it doesn't take long before I'm developing both music and words at the same time.

Now let's see if I can answer the other questions:
*I work alone 90% of the time, but I do like to collaborate.
*Never high, but occasionally drunk.
*I don't think I'm a genius, but I do take pride in my work. I scrape funds together constantly to develop it.
*I'm not my own worst enemy, but I have learned to recognize when I'm producing b.s.
*I don't think that success has anything to do with age.
*If someone steals my stuff, they better know every intricate little detail about my songs-I do. I can tell you what each line means and probably where I was when I wrote it.
*I'm not the only one that thinks I'm good. There's a few others, and many of those people won't hesitate to tell me when my work sucks.
*Not having the people to record my music led me to get better on other instruments and eventually record the ideas myself, with little help. On my stuff, you'll hear electric guitar and drums. I didn't play those. The bass, acoustic guitar, keys, lead and backing vocals (mostly), that's all me. I wrote all the material, from every chord down to the arrangement, and I was there for every minute of the mixdown-giving input on how I wanted it. In other words, I got my "demo" by learning to do it myself (basically).

That was a lot of questions, dude.

I try to write it a little at a time.

I always try to do the chorus first, then lyrical content for the chorus.

If I haven't anything good by then, it goes on the back burner, as no catchy chorus and you've got very little.

Otherwise, melodic verse(s) next..

Next is the change or break, bridge, whatever you want to call it..

Finish with solo content, eval. for background accompaniment or lack thereof.

Discuss with others, re-tweak and hope for the best.

When you lay out a song, is there a general rule you apply in terms of how many bars you commit to an intro, how many for the chorus, how many for the song, and where you place each?

Easily answered and then... not so easy.

It depends on the PURPOSE you have in mind for your music.

Do you want it to be marketable? Or more artistic?

Major Labels have a definite FORMULA they like to follow. A cookie cutter formula.

A typical version of this would be:

intro-verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge-chorus


The "bridge" is similar to a chorus, with the same climax effect a chorus has, but it is often shorter, and the melody will be different than the chorus.

I am TERRIBLE at writing bridges, cause I'm lazy!

Once I have the basics... Intro-Verse-Chorus - I want to be done and move on to the next song.

This is BAD... REALLY BAD.. for Labels and Producers, who will usually INSIST that you add one to a song.

There are alternatives to using a "bridge" and you will find these on alot of songs, but ultimately the main PURPOSE of a bridge, is to change the song up at a certain point. The repetition of Verse-Chorus several times, often lulls the listener into ignoring the rest of the song. They "GET" the structure of the song by then, and often start to TUNE OUT.

Labels know this, and that's why "psychologically" they want a BRIDGE (or something that incurs a similar result) to WAKE PEOPLE UP AGAIN!

"Oh... hey... what's that? Something different... The song is going in a new direction and I haven't heard that melody line yet!"

This is then followed by the CHORUS again, which NAILS THE HOOK in people's head, and leaves them, not only paying attention again, but also remembering the main hook.

Do yourself a favor, if you plan to SELL THE SONG or get it radio play, then... WRITE A BRIDGE or use a special Break or something, that achieves the same effect.

Labels will FORCE you to do it, otherwise, and if you are in the place where that is occurring... guess what? Because you are a NEW and STRUGGLING artist, the Producer, Engineer even.... SOMEONE is going to probably try and WRITE IT FOR YOU, so they get songwriting credit and MAKE A LITTLE MORE CHEESE FOR THEMSELVES and then they are also CO-OWNERS of your song!

Don't let this happen if you can avoid it!

And I say "IF" because.... I know this for a fact... This kind of thing happens EVEN IF THEY LIKE THE SONG -AS-IS- !!!!

They are unscrupulous in the music industry, and many times, THEY WILL try and pull this on you sooner or later. Just because it means more money to them.

HOPE THIS HELPS!

Immense help Craig, thank you! I've never had it explained to me. I just tried to put things together based on what I've heard - never really had an interest in studying it until recently and this helps me get a better grasp of what is going on.

When you lay out a song, is there a general rule you apply in terms of how many bars you commit to an intro, how many for the chorus, how many for the song, and where you place each?

Easily answered and then... not so easy.

It depends on the PURPOSE you have in mind for your music.

Do you want it to be marketable? Or more artistic?

Major Labels have a definite FORMULA they like to follow. A cookie cutter formula.

A typical version of this would be:

intro-verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge-chorus


The "bridge" is smilar to a chorus, with the same climax effect a chorus has, but it is often shorter, and the melody will be different than the chorus.

I am TERRIBLE at writing bridges, cause I'm lazy!

Once I have the basics... Intro-Verse-Chorus - I want to be done and move on to the next song.

This is BAD... REALLY BAD.. for Labels and Producers, who will usually INSIST that you add one to a song.

There are alternatives to using a "bridge" and you will these on alot of songs, but ultimately the main PURPOSE of a bridge, is to change the song up at a certain point. The repetetion of Verse-Chorus several times, often lulls the listener into ignoring the rest of the song. They "GET" the structure of the song by then, and often start to TUNE OUT.

Labels know this, and that's why "psychologically" they want a BRIDGE (or something that incurs a similar result) to WAKE PEOPLE UP AGAIN!

"Oh... hey... what's that? Something different... The song is going in a new direction and I haven't heard that melody line yet!"

This is then followed by the CHORUS again, which NAILS THE HOOK in people's head, and leaves them paying attention again, and remembering the main hook.

Do yourself a favor, if you plan to SELL THE SONG or get it radio play, and WRITE A BRIDGE or use a special Break or something, that achieves the same effect.

Labels will FORCE you to do it, otherwise, and if you are in the place where that is occuring... guess what? Because you are a NEW and STRUGGLING artist, the Producer, Engineer even.... SOMEONE is going to probably try and WRITE IT FOR YOU, so they get songwriting credit and MAKE A LITTLE MORE CHEESE FOR THEMSELVES and then they are also CO-OWNERS of your song!

Don't let this happen if you can avoid it!

And I say "IF" because.... I know this for a fact... This kind of thing happens EVEN IF THEY LIKE THE SONG -AS-IS- !!!!

They are unscrupulous in the music indstry, and many times, THEY WILL try and pull this on you sooner or later. Just because it means more money to them.

HOPE THIS HELPS!

Immense help Craig, thank you! I've never had it explained to me. I just tried to put things together based on what I've heard - never really had an interest in studying it until recently and this helps me get a better grasp of what is going on.

Glad to help brother!


Alot of songwriters don't think about "Song Structure" so much. They know the basics, and what sounds good to them, but unfortunately the Music Industry is about MONEY and not ART.

THIS LINK MAY HELP ALSO:

http://musiced.about.com/od/othermusicgenres/p/partsofasong.htm

There are additional related links at the bottom of that article too!