General Music Chat

Oh boo hoo we're becoming a more socialist country. Maybe if more Americans were better educated and produced at levels comparable to other countries we wouldn't be exporting jobs. Innovation and industry used to be the hallmark of our country, now it's laid off factory workers wondering why they're out of work. Get yer butt back to school and become employable and quit crying about how the evil big government is screwing you.

yeah I tried to join the discussion on the up and coming energy disaster, but it turned into a religious propaganda thread.

Honestly, I don't know if there is a god or not. None has ever presented him or herself to me as such, nor performed miracles. All I get is a bunch of people who have either assumed or have been taught what other people believe to be truths.

Now, I'm all about beliefs and spirituality, but the bible to me is a farce - my understanding (and this is heresay...) is that the "original" was written nearly 300 years A.D.

Now I'm not a rocket scientist, but I remember that game we played in kindergarten, the one where someone whispers a word into the first persons' ear, and then that person whispers it to the next, and so on. 20-30 people later, the word, whatever it was, was always completely changed into something starkly different.

No matter how many times we did it, the end result was the same. It was a lesson, and probably one of the most important lessons I ever learned in a public school (sad to say).

So back to the bible - how can we honestly believe that dozens of stories and hundreds of quotes and events that were passed on by word of mouth, for hundreds of years, are even remotely accurate?

And then the King James who came along and just re-wrote many sections, added chapters, etc..?

But there's more- 2000 years ago, mankind (you know, us, people) were friggin idiots. We were intellectually stunted and socially retarded. Fast forward to today, where we have solid math, science, an understanding of the world we live on, and even our solar system and space...

We just take the "word" of fantasies our ancestors had 1700-2000 years ago, with no proof, whatsoever? That's beyond "faith"... It's outright absurdity, nearly criminal in it's senselessness. but that is my opinion.

Here's the thing though, outside of threads like this, I don't go around telling everyone my opinion. I don't continually beat it into my friends or co-workers. Mostly, because it's not a belief, but at the same time, it's what I believe.

I really liked that movie Dogma, mostly because it was just a funny story, we all like to immerse ourselves into stories.. but they addressed a lot of religious topics, one of which is that the idea that JC was upset at mankind for the sh*t we do in his name, past and present. But what he said was about JC preferring people have "ideas" than "beliefs", you can change an idea, but you can't change a belief (Craig, you are actually proof of that).

So I said my piece. When I see religion thrown in my face, I tend to throw anti-religion back. These threads are getting ponderous.

Craig - my goodness, man! You'll even hijack your OWN thread to push your religious ideas on us!

Wasn't this thread about how they're tearing down America through the financial district? I can't even remember anymore...

My plan is working... BWAHAAHAA!!!

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Oh boo hoo we're becoming a more socialist country. Maybe if more Americans were better educated and produced at levels comparable to other countries we wouldn't be exporting jobs. Innovation and industry used to be the hallmark of our country, now it's laid off factory workers wondering why they're out of work. Get yer butt back to school and become employable and quit crying about how the evil big government is screwing you.

You don't need an education for most factory jobs.

A little history and economics review, would show you guys that we are becoming a SERVICE ORIENTED economy, as England did long before us.

We are still -BY FAR- the largest economy on the planet.

Jobs are not all "leaving" they are CHANGING.

Change with the times, and you'll be fine.

Evolve or die.

No one promised anyone a job for life.


Jimmy is right about education. It's more important than ever. But it's also important to HAVE A PLAN. Don't expect that a job is ALWAYS going to be there. Save money. Invest. Diversify. Educate yourselves. Work two jobs and save the extra income. Start a small but reliable business on the side.

Things always change.

Winners are prepared, and ready to change with the times.

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Now, I'm all about beliefs and spirituality, but the bible to me is a farce - my understanding (and this is heresay...) is that the "original" was written nearly 300 years A.D.

You are speaking of the New Testament, and the earliest manuscripts are actually only 70 years CE, not 300 CE.

Now I'm not a rocket scientist, but I remember that game we played in kindergarten, the one where someone whispers a word into the first persons' ear, and then that person whispers it to the next, and so on. 20-30 people later, the word, whatever it was, was always completely changed into something starkly different.

Yes, that CAN OCCUR, especially with Kindergartners, but that doesn't apply in this case, and it is a misuse of a testing mechanism.

First of all, you cannot compare something said "once" and then made to be repeated ear to ear, to the process used with SCRIPTURE.

The Jews, were completely devoted to PAINSTAKINGLY insuring that their scrolls were copied ACCURATELY. They had a long and tedious process of transcribing documents to new scrolls as the others aged, and then these new scrolls were compared (not whispered) to the old ones, and the characters in each line were counted, line by line, then the characters were further counted for the page as a whole. While this does not eliminate the possibility of error in transcription, it GREATLY reduces the possibilities of errors, so that if they occurred, they would be relatively minor.

This was later confirmed, when the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered (go look that up, to see why that find was so significant) and when the scrolls were pieced together and examined, it was discovered that almost word for word, a copy of some Old Testament texts were more than 95% accurate to more recent translations. Isaiah was found and dates to within 500 years of the original, and copies made hundreds of years later, were nearly word-for-word identical, with the differences being obvious slips of a pen, or spelling errors. Nothing significant was found to be different.

This is an important clue, in understanding how SERIOUS the Jews handled, what they believed to be God's words through the prophets. The Jews killed prophets, found to be false, when anything they said, didn't come true. Speaking for God, and transcribing the revelations of God, were a VERY SERIOUS business, with death often being the end result, for failure or carelessness.

Not your average nursery rhyme being repeated.

And speaking of nursery rhymes, or kids songs...

Anyone remember this one:

miss susie had a steamboat
the steamboat had a bell
miss susie went to heaven
the steamboat went to
hello operator
give me number nine
if you disconnect me
ill cut off your
behind the frigerator
there was a piece of glass
miss susie sat upon it and broke her...


I bet MANY of you do.

Well, I learned that stupid thing as a child, and I am over 40 years old. About 10 years ago, I was visiting my aunt, whose daughters were in elementary school at the time, and guess what?

I heard them singing that song.

My aunt had not taught it to them.

They learned it, as I had before them, from other kids in school.

What amazed me though, was that they sang the EXACT LINES, word for word, to something that had only been passed down, from "ear to ear" and by KIDS... for over 20 years by that time!

So even verbally, the same song, the same story repeated CAN and DOES get repeated PERFECTLY, even when it is something STUPID and for FUN, and not something as important as God's inspiration to man through scripture!

Just remember.... DEATH was the price of screwing with God's messages to man, in Jewish culture.

Not to be taken lightly.

Go research the DEAD SEA SCROLLS... they PROVE how accurately these manuscripts were transcribed and handed down to us!

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Here's the problem Craig-

Nobody can say for a fact exactly when the bible was written. The "common" view I've seen on most sites says 300 years later, so I typed that, as "heresay" in my post, because I really don't know.

But in your response, you state it as FACT that it was 70 years A.D. Do you really know, or are you just repeating something you were told or read?

Really... we are all going by what we are told, or read in a book. The problem is that we really have no idea of the accuracy of anything written.

What we do have is deductive reasoning, logic, experience, and common sense.

Experience tells me that it's the winners who write history, and it's almost always a one-sided and very biased history at that. Experience tells me that MOST, if not all of what I learned from history books in school was generic facts with extremely pertinent details left out, or just plain fantasy.

Deductive reasoning and logic tell me that if god existed, there would be far less random suffering and far less evil-dooers in the world that get ahead in life. There's WAY too much unfairness and suffering in the world to show anything but the opposite conclusion: Faith in a god that commands the world to be "just" and "good" is actually giving people a false sense of trust and allowing the people who do evil to take advantage of them. To the point now that the leaders of the church all take advantage of the "followers" themselves. Just look at how these televanglists live.. look at how much money the vatican is sitting on... it's all a giant screw job IMO.

Common sense tells me a lot more, but way too much to type here...

There's been evidence to support the claim that the bible itself might have just been children's stories used to teach kids (fear) to be moral and fearful of the afterlife, if they lived immorally.

All of this, or none of this may or may not be true-

But again, do I go around defending these points, trying to convince YOU that you live your life incorrectly? Has any agnostic ever tried to "convert" you, unprovoked? I certainly don't waste my time pushing my personal beliefs, which is what almost every religion *requires* it's followers to do.

Screw that, I'm not a follower.

The "common" view I've seen on most sites says 300 years later, so I typed that, as "heresay" in my post, because I really don't know.

I think you are confusing when the Bible was "canonized" (officially compiled and recognized) with how old the various manuscripts that MAKE UP THE BIBLE are, and when they were first "written".

Early canonization efforts, by Origen, a famous biblical scholar, for example, occurred in the early 200's, and more officially, later, in the 300's sometime. Although the same books were accepted, that Origen had originally set.

Nevertheless, the process took SEVERAL HUNDRED YEARS, which you will be pleased to know, is strong evidence, that this process was UNDER MAN'S CONTROL rather than exclusively under God's control... otherwise, it would not have taken God, hundreds of years, to be SURE about, which books were authentic or not. God would have known that, right? And been able to give them a list within seconds.



That's why, though the Bible -IS- a work, inspired by God, it has to be understood in the context, that FALLEN MAN, was filtering God's inspiration, through their own fallen nature. They did the best they could, but HUNDREDS OF YEARS, to be SURE which books may be authentic or not? There will have to be some errors or misunderstandings of God's inspiration present.

That conclusion is unavoidable.

Experience tells me that it's the winners who write history, and it's almost always a one-sided and very biased history at that. Experience tells me that MOST, if not all of what I learned from history books in school was generic facts with extremely pertinent details left out, or just plain fantasy.

You are right. Often this is the case, even with INSPIRED works.

In some defense of the process however, though the canonization took HUNDREDS OF YEARS, proving that God does not always CONTROL man, even where His own Inspirations are concerned... nevertheless, the fact they poured over and debated these texts for so long, also PROVES that it was not a haphazard exercise. They wanted, very sincerely, to get it right! So it would be wrong, in this case, to reduce it to "the winners write what they want" or something similar.

Deductive reasoning and logic tell me that if god existed, there would be far less random suffering and far less evil-dooers in the world that get ahead in life.

I've addressed this in other posts, if you care to go back and check them.

But there are VERY LOGICAL reasons why a God of love, and a world of suffering, side by side with goodness, are completely compatible.

It is as simple as the fact of "Free Will"

We have free will.

Not everyone will choose good. And the world will suffer the consequences when many don't choose goodness and unselfishness. If God were to remove our free will, and thereby remove any opportunity for people doing harm to others, He would be simultaneously REMOVING ANY POSSIBLITY of LOVE existing in this world. Love only exists in FREEDOM. We only LOVE out of a desire, a free choice, to do so. Otherwise we are programmed robots, and like Roxxxy the sex doll, we may be entertainment for someone, but we can never LOVE.

Roxxxy is a PROGRAMMED robot, INCAPABLE OF LOVE.

God did not desire that for us.

THAT is logical.

Then the decision is merely "Was God wrong" to allow us the POSSIBILITY of being LOVING BEINGS, even though He knew, that love would not always be chosen by us.

For those that have tasted God's love...

It is not a question at all.

LOVE is ABSOLUTELY, worth, the price paid to allow it to exist.

The gift you CURSE God for, I praise Him for.

It is a matter of perspective.

But again, do I go around defending these points, trying to convince YOU that you live your life incorrectly? Has any agnostic ever tried to "convert" you, unprovoked?

Generally no.

Neither atheists nor agnostics, as a general rule, push their beliefs on others. What they do instead, is work toward ALL RELIGION BEING BANISHED from the planet, or more often, they mock, degrade and insult, believers for their "ignorance" and "stupidity" for not recognizing the supposedly superior LOGIC of their own positions.

All I can tell you, is that I have studied all sides, of all of these issues, for many decades, from spiritual perspectives and intellectual ones, and I have an IQ that puts me in the top half of "one" percentage point of the WORLD'S POPULATION.

This means, that out of nearly 7,000,000,000 (7 Billion) people on the planet... I am assessed to be smarter than 6,965,000,000 of them.

Call me crazy.

But I am not "stupid" by any stretch of the imagination!



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Nothing to do with wanting to destroy your religion, but there's certainly a will for it to stop trying to inpede my life with such things as legislating morality, or trying to teach bible class in public schools, etc..

Other than that, religion has been around far longer than 2000 years, and in that time, the most complete and compelling circular logic has been achieved in arguing it's legitimacy. There's a reason there's so many 'followers' and there's a reason why it can't be 'disproven', although the reason itself also means it also cannot be proven, either.

So how can anyone argue against something like that? It's totally illogical, and defies common sense, yet, because it simply can't be dis-proven, it's accepted (by many) as fact. You have no idea just how much it assaults the senses to even try and argue with a "believer" because that person will never, ever, change their belief, even if presented with absolute evidence, you would be unwilling to change your belief. Beliefs rarely can be changed, if ever.

So yeah, I'm not going to spend more time wasting away on bmix arguing religion like this. I might comment here or there on future posts, but I'm not going to run circles in a revolving door trying to convince the other guy running circles that it leads to both in and out, not just out.

You have no idea just how much it assaults the senses to even try and argue with a "believer" because that person will never, ever, change their belief, even if presented with absolute evidence, you would be unwilling to change your belief. Beliefs rarely can be changed, if ever.

Well, my beliefs are always evolving.

Some remain consistent...

"God is real"

"God is love"

"The soul is eternal"

These I believe, less on faith at this point, than from evidence.

God has proven himself to me MANY times, in dramatic and verifiable ways.

My wife talked to my uncle -AT HIS OWN FUNERAL- when he was absolutely dead. He told her things she could not possibly know, and that only his wife, my aunt, knew. My aunt later verified that these things were true, and that some of them, only my aunt knew... not even her children.


There is no way around that.

You weren't there, and if you presume me to be a liar, which I am anything but, I would not take offense.

But... THESE THINGS HAPPENED!

"I KNOW" the soul survives death!

And if WE can survive death, and enter a purely spiritual existence, it would only be opposition to God, to believe that... WE CAN EXIST FOREVER, but a loving, intelligent and creative Creator God, cannot, and is instead, a figment of our imagination.

And yes, I fully understand the experiences you have had with many Christians.

But not all Christians are like that.

I am not trying to shove anything down anyone's throat. You cannot FORCE anyone into a belief, that requires a change of someone's HEART to embrace in the first place.

All the logic in the world. All the personal experiences shared, will not CHANGE anyone's heart. It can only help bring them to a place, where THEY DECIDE to reconsider things, and FIND THEIR OWN RELATIONSHIP with God, if they don't have one already!

You cannot browbeat or scare, anyone to Heaven.

People who have done that to you, are misguided.

I'm just having conversations.

And as verbose as I can be personally, I always read everyone's comments and consider them, and I learn things myself, in the process.

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These I believe, less on faith at this point, than from evidence.

One man's evidence is another man's definition of mental illness.

"I KNOW" the soul survives death!

See, Craig, if you say, "I believe the soul survives death" then you get no argument from me, because it's your belief, and who am I to begrudge a guy his own beliefs?

But when you say you "know" - then that irks me.

You know? Fine - prove it. Prove it in a way that is repeatable and predictable.

You can't.

I'll not argue your beliefs. I will argue with beliefs presented as facts.

"I KNOW" the soul survives death!

See, Craig, if you say, "I believe the soul survives death" then you get no argument from me, because it's your belief, and who am I to begrudge a guy his own beliefs?

But when you say you "know" - then that irks me.

You know? Fine - prove it. Prove it in a way that is repeatable and predictable.

You can't.

My wife talked to my deceased uncle.

Carried on a conversation with him.

He told her things NO ONE ELSE KNEW!

That's proof enough for me.


What's your take on that?

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btw...

My wife and I have only been together for 7 years now. I have been exposed to similar things before, even from my mother.

My mother is a TRIPLET!

Two are identical and one is not, but all born the same day, within minutes apart.

ALL THREE TRIPLETS when they were young, around 12 years old? Watched their recently deceased grandmother, walk over to their bed, and outstretch her hand over them, as if to say she was protecting them, or watching over them.

They all saw this at the same time.

They did not have the same hallucination.

They did not see a sheet blowing around on a clothesline and mistakenly thought it was their grandmother.

They recorgnized her quite clearly, and she WALKED over to them, right up to their bed, and put her hand out over them.

Of course, my mother and my aunts could be maintaining a decades long held conspiracy and are merely lying to me about this.



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Sure is ironic that when the tv cameras and scientists come in to validate such claims, all the ghosts just vanish, without a trace. Interesting also how these dead relatives only appear and speak to the most devout "believers", when non-believers are not present...

It's almost as if everything supernatural is afraid of being seen... what are they scared of?

My wife talked to my deceased uncle.

Carried on a conversation with him.

He told her things NO ONE ELSE KNEW!

That's proof enough for me.


What's your take on that?

My take is - repeat it. Have your dead uncle talk to me.

Until you can repeat a feat, it's just fantasy. There are lots of explanations.


A one-time event is not proof of anything.


If I happen to stand in the right place at the right time, and a fireball appears to shoot of my fingers, is that good enough for you to call it "proof" that I can shoot fireballs out of my fingers?

Or would you prefer that I repeat that amazing feat before you are willing to believe it?

Sure is ironic that when the tv cameras and scientists come in to validate such claims, all the ghosts just vanish, without a trace. Interesting also how these dead relatives only appear and speak to the most devout "believers", when non-believers are not present...

It's almost as if everything supernatural is afraid of being seen... what are they scared of?

Exactly.

Until a regular, average "non-believer' can witness it - better yet, until a camera can catch it - it's just ghost stories.

I'm open to anything being possible. But until it happens and IS REPEATABLE then I just can't bring myself to blindly believe in something. It's not real.