General Music Chat

Because I don't necessarilly see them as lesser beings, it doesn't make me a "cannibal," Craig. I'm not eating people, after all. What an odd thing to say!

There is much to support the idea that we are all inter-related, you know. Add to that idea that perhaps these animals aren't really stupid, like we were taught. Now add to that the j/c idea that everything in the world was put there for mankind to use. Seems a little big-headed to me, but wtf.

The end result is that those things we were taught were wrong, in that these animals do not exist for our exclusive use. Our environment is not ours alone, yet we certainly treat it that way. We need these other species, because somewhere in the food chain, they are a necessity.

No one can go back & do a study to really see the impact of the loss of the dodo, or the tazmanian tiger, or any of a host of other species that mankind has eradicated. Nor can we, with all of our technology & "knowledge," predict the actual impact of the loss of the polar bears, or any other plant or animal.

I've said it before - we are as stupid as yeast, as a species, cuz we use up our resources & drown in our own sh*t just like yeast. So you tell me - how are we so much loftier than a dolphin? Cuz we have religion? Cuz we have books? Politics? Greed on a grander scale than any other creature known? Pffft! We ain't all that, man.

Things eat other things because it's easier to get nutients necessary for life by consuming your neighbor than lying in the sun.

I think it's a little more complex than that.

If they didn't already have the nutrients necessary to become life (by means of their current solar diet), then how did they get to the "life" stage in the first place?

It doesn't make sense to me that even if the first organism had any sense of itself or it's nutritional needs, it would require sacrificing energy to acquire energy from a foreign resource using some internal ability to locate, consume and then transform into energy that foreign energy source (solar to organic).

It's a little more complex than "just going over there and eating that thingamadoodle" is the point I'm trying to get accross.

No Chris it's not any more complicated than I stated. Everything on earth is competing for survival. Over time some species become better adapted at exploiting their environment and become dominant. We have become so adept at exploiting the environment that we are actually killing it - and ourselves in the process.

Craig, I'm not sure God setup evolution (or anything else). If he did he's one twisted freak. A truly good, loving and magical god would let us all absorb sunlight and live in utopia. But no, he setup this system where life forms live through difficulty and hardship and sometimes die painful and brutal deaths. That dude has issues but I must say he has a sense of humor.

Because I don't necessarilly see them as lesser beings, it doesn't make me a "cannibal," Craig. I'm not eating people, after all. What an odd thing to say!

It's not odd to follow the logic to a certain conclusion.

What I am pointing out, was that EVEN YOU do accept that they are lesser in value than humans to some extent, because you would not eat a human, but you would eat a Dolphin or something similar.

But we don't need to get caught up in semantics.

I was just making a point, that THERE IS, even in your mind, an absolute difference between the two.

But we agree almost completely on this.

Animals are often similar to us socially, and even in intelligence, the ability to use tools... many things.

I agree with you, that traditionally, some religious peoples have used religion as a justification for abusing nature, and even other people. Sadly, they miss that the Bible calls on man to be a GOOD STEWARD of the resources nature provides.

We agree on all this.

It was merely a small point, and it makes me reflect yet again, on my own understandings, because eating animals is somewhat of a moral dilemma for me at times. I play with the idea of being a vegetarian.

Even in Genesis, it says...

Genesis 1:29-30 (New International Version)

29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food." And it was so.


That verse alone, has made me wonder if God originally intended for us only to be vegetarians.

I don't know the answer.

Anthropologists would probably suggest that primitive man's teeth are literally MADE for eating meat, and for untold years and through many evolutionary processes it has remained so.

Maybe... but, I don't know.

Just because our teeth are good for chewing meat, doesn't mean they weren't originally designed to chew other things, that grow from the Earth.

The jury is out for me on this.

I don't have the answer yet.

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No Chris it's not any more complicated than I stated. Everything on earth is competing for survival.

Er em, "Survival of the Fittest" is not Evolution, and it comes after the first survivor, which is what we're talking about.

Ya, well I declare that scientists are the second most gay creatures after gays.
Particularly biologists.

Exactly what I am trying to do. Bust the egg and get out.

Things evolve.

A truly good, loving and magical god would let us all absorb sunlight and live in utopia.

As to the Sunlight...

If only God would let us ONLY do what? Did you say ABSORB sunlight?

Not so different from INGEST.

The argument would be that nothing DIES as a result. But even scientists tells us that there is no NEW STUFF. It merely TRANSFORMS from one state to another... Economy.

THE NATURAL WORLD is an "organism" and reflects principles found on MANY levels, from lower states to larger systems.

We live in a... universe right?

And there are moons revolving around planets and planets revolving around suns... In the make-up of our physical bodies, we are also constructed and maintained by a REVOLVING process of sorts, where protons and electrons REVOLVE on differing axes and angles around a nucleus... not so different from imagining the Sun as a nucleus around which other bodies rotate on different axes, forming a spherical path. If you could, for example, film the motions of heavenly bodies without closing the shutter, you would see large SPHERES forming, where these bodies rotate around some other heavenly body, at so many angles and differing axes, that it would look like a larger sphere when it was filmed over massive periods of time. Storms rotate in circular patterns... I see it in EVERYTHING... this CIRCULAR ENERGY if you will... even in human relations... you talk, I respond, you respond back... circular... Or in the interdependence of species... We inhale oxygen from plants, then exhale carbon dioxide, which they then take back in... Circular... and INTERDEPENDENT!

INTERDEPENDENCE does not have to be BRUTAL or EVIL. In fact, to me, it is BEAUTIFUL and MYSTICAL. Phil and I were discussing "lower" animal life, and yet, how low would plants be on a scale like that? Way down at the bottom of the scale.... Yet I cannot exist without them.

One thing I DO KNOW in my heart, is that God CREATED us all to be interdependent! From eco-systems to animal and human life forms... ALL INTERDEPENDENT! And I know God arranged this in such a way, as to involve us in the WHOLE... to be part of a BIGGER PICTURE.

That is what makes me question whether what APPEARS brutal to me, really is... brutal?

WE ARE A SYSTEM

We live in a complex SYSTEM and it is a SERIES of SYSTEMS making ever larger SYSTEMS.

On a molecular level, protons and electrons circle around one another, forming higher forms of matter, making our BODIES possible. In our bodies, we like to think we are in control, but other insects live all over us, microscopic, but they are there nonetheless, and they are INDEPENDENT critters, that could just as easily live on YOU as on ME. For them, our bodies are like THEIR EARTH, and they depend on OUR RESOURCES... eating our dead skin, scavaging on our eyelids, even INSIDE us as well... And as you ZOOM OUT to higher and higher levels... the Earth is part of a SOLAR SYSTEM and that solar system is part of a larger COSMOS. All in circular motion... ALL DEPENDENT on everything else.

NOW...

IF... IF... we are all, people, planets, stars, microbes... ALL MATTER, made of the SAME STUFF, and there is no LOSS of what exists, but only TRANSFORMATION... then maybe it is not the vicious brutal act it appears? Since we are STILL there, molecularly, and all the MATTER is still present?

In other words... from a purely PHYSICAL perspective... If the molecules that make up grass, are eaten by a cow, and then translated into me, through consumption of the cow, and those molecules are now INSIDE ME and give me nourishment, and then I poop some out, which fertilizes the grasses, and are then ingested by ANOTHER cow... do you see?

A SYSTEM!

AND CIRCULAR MOVEMENT!

A SELF-CONTAINED SYSTEM of SYSTEMS that make a cohesive ORGANISM or WHOLE!

People's like Native Americans thank the animal they kill for food, for giving up it's life, but even they were likely unaware, that the animal did not really DIE in the sense of it's physical property itself, but it migrated into another being and other forms, where the circle of life continues on.

Maybe not so "brutal" or "competitive" after all?

I'm gonna keep thinking on it!

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Chris - "Survival of the Fittest" is indeed a major component of evolution. Go read some Mayr and Darwin and get back to me.

Craig - Dude I want some of what you're smoking. Life on planet Earth is brutal, regardless of how cushy we've made it for ourselves. Life has been evolving for 3.5 billion years, and for most of that time animals have been killing other animals (the first billion or so was just algae-like organisms). Watch some nature shows and then tell me how wonderful and non-brutal the world is. We've done our share of killing too (no Neanderthals, I wonder where they went?)

People tell themselves the most unproveable and fantastic stories just to blind themselves to the truth. That's fine if it works for you but it's not good enough for me.

Science is the only way the human race will survive. If you don't believe it you're part of the problem.

But no, he setup this system where life forms live through difficulty and hardship and sometimes die painful and brutal deaths.

Do you like having your own thoughts?

Or would you prefer having a software program installed, that FORCED you to laugh when programmed to, FORCED you to stay with a certain girlfriend even though you came to realize she was not the best for you. FORCED you to have an interest in piccolo rather than electric guitar, etc.. etc...

WOULD "YOU" REALLY BE "YOU" WERE YOU NOT FREE TO MAKE YOUR OWN MISTAKES?

In robbing God of allowing us the GIFT of FREE-WILL, you are inexplicably ROBBING YOURSELF of being the "YOU" that you are now!

Is that Utopia?

Being a robot?

The evil that occurs in the world, is the SIDE-EFFECT of free-will.

It is a sometimes DANGEROUS existence, because FREE-WILL is a dangerous gift... an autonomous mind we are allowed to possess, by the Creator's own design... But what are we capable of, with such god-like powers?

We have seen in history, THE BEST of what that gift offers.

And the WORST!

Jesus sacrifice on a cross, Gandhi's self-sacrifice for his people's independence, etc... - - - THE BEST!

Hitler wanting to exterminate an entire RACE of people... Stalin STARVING millions of peasants to death... THE WORST!

Why does God allow this?

Because LOVE is WORTH the risks and WORTH the COST!

That's why.

If you don't FEEL that love personally, and don't know what it is like, then it would be hard to appreciate why the LOVE which comes from the SOURCE OF LOVE is soooo WORTH the difficulties! And why those difficulties are unavoidable as a side-effect, to a species of "humans" having been given a dangerous "gift of the gods" -FREE WILL-

But to judge God for WHAT MAN DOES to himself, is a little ridiculous.

He can only MAKE us stop hurting one another, by taking back the gift He gave. The gift of FREE WILL.

The VERY gift that makes LOVE ITSELF possible!

Love cannot exist without FREE WILL.

If you want UTOPIA WITHOUT SACRIFICE then you want a world WITHOUT LOVE!

Try tying up a chick in a chair (spare the jokes) and though you bring her food every day, and her favorite books, and change the TV channel and read to her daily, and massage her, etc...

WOULD SHE BE CAPABLE OF TRULY LOVING YOU when she is your prisoner, being MADE or FORCED to do what you want?

If you programmed a ROBOT to respond lovingly-sounding to your every command, would you EVER believe that the robot loved you?

Of course not!

FREE WILL is the necessary ENVIRONMENT for love to exist.

We only LOVE those whom we WANT and CHOOSE to love.

God knew this.

He wanted children, extensions of Himself, and wanted us to be able to LOVE as He loves, as His very nature is. To do this, he had to give us FREE WILL, but as a DANGEROUS GIFT, God had to LIMIT what we could do with it, as we were GROWING and MATURING that gift, by creating a PHYSICAL WORLD, where we are limited by TIME and SPACE and where EVERYTHING WE DO in our... BODIES... is limited to THIS PLANE of existence.

My spirit is CONTAINED within a BODY, so that I LEARN to control my spirit, and my impulses, and HOPEFULLY, learn to use my FREE WILL to "LOVE" and to be a child of God... rather than a selfish, self-centered, loveless being that only acts in my own self-interest and chooses to ABUSE free will, rather than HARNESS it for all the gifts God has to offer, which are even greater than the mere gift of having been given life itself!

Do you want a world without love?

I don't.

God doesn't either.

Our free choices play out HERE, side by side, good and evil, in the CONTAINED ENVIRONMENT of this PHYSICAL COSMOS, so that -IF- we come to accept God's love and choose to love others (some will and some won't) we can then GRADUATE to the lighter and purer existence where we are surrounded by LOVE ONLY and where there is NONE of the pains you oppose in THIS PLANE of existence.


IT -IS- A PLAN JIMMY!

And a DAMN GOOD one, if only more people understood how it works!

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Oh, and...

NATURAL DISASTERS?

Are those worse than a crack mother prostituting her own daughter out for drugs, making her hate men, and though she gets to be ALIVE, she never comes to find joy or happiness in that life, with such baggage?

This world is temporary.

WE ARE SUPPOSED TO DIE.

It is a limited lifespan for a deliberate reason.

The real tragedy in "tragedies" is often how WE DEAL WITH THEM as opposed to the tragedies themselves.

Tragedies are shocking sometimes, or sad, but they are ALSO huge opportunities for LOVE and SACRIFICE OF OTHERS. Sometimes it takes a TRAGEDY to bring us out of our selfish natures, and help us find our higher selves. People often come together in the aftermath of tragedies.

Is God supposed to have allowed the FUN of skateboarding, without the possibility of getting a skinned knee?

Sometimes, the potential danger, is the exciting part. Making our hearts race. Making us feel alive!

Would we feel that way, if NOTHING harmful was ever a possibility?

Everything could very well seem boring to us, without the chance of accidents or problems.

Would we value as highly... things that could never be lost?


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Life on planet Earth is brutal, regardless of how cushy we've made it for ourselves. Life has been evolving for 3.5 billion years, and for most of that time animals have been killing other animals

It's evolving right?

Our spirits are evolving too.

Human relations and governmental systems are evolving too.

When we stop eating like we should, guess what...

OUR BODIES EAT THEMSELVES!

But you will accuse me of being on dope for having a positive worldview as opposed to your fatalist one?

Come on Jimmy.

The natural world may be more organized and more purposeful than you realie. Is that outside the realm of possibility?

You seem not to want to FORFEIT the life YOU HAVE.

Can't be that bad for you, huh?

And yet you want scientists to be your savior. You say life is so worhthless, yet you live it... and you maintain hope for an improvement in human relations... You just want to leave GOD out of it.

That is a BIAS.

Your heart is struggling with your life-giver and you are completely unaware of it bro.


Yes, I believe evolution exists... yes, science is a valuable tool... but my God, my Father, had such a phenomenal plan and hope, to have other beings like Himself, capable of LOVE, that YES... He has invested BILLIONS OF YEARS creating us, evolving (maturing) us, and has created a Cosmos large enough to house BILLIONS AND TRILLIONS of future generations of his CHILDREN, so that the process continues... only it will get EASIER as humanity's CONSCIOUSNESS enlarges and learns from it's mistakes.

Why am I a fool for beliving that, as opposed to beliving that life has no other meaning than to destroy itself?

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And I thought this post might have been about the Dolphins and how Chad Henne is still a Joke! Look it up! Another great song from those TRUE Ohio State Buckeyes, the Dead Schembechlers - Chad Henne is a Joke ... Great song!!! O-H-I-O!

Chris - "Survival of the Fittest" is indeed a major component of evolution. Go read some Mayr and Darwin and get back to me.

Save me some time by quoting the sections that deal with the question: how does a self-sufficient organism benefit by giving up its self-sufficiency? I may have missed it.

Craig - somehow you've gotten the mistaken idea that I don't believe that the system of life is intricate, beautiful and worthwhile. It totally is! But it doesn't require a designer or overseer to exist; it does it on its own! That is the beautiful part; no magical man or great plan is required for all of the wonder you see.

Chris - I'm not exactly sure what you're asking but I'll try to respond:

"how does a self-sufficient organism benefit by giving up its self-sufficiency?"

First of all, nothing is self-sufficient. Every living thing is a system that takes in inputs (food) and processes them. Even the algae that clung to the rocks for the first billion years of life converted sunlight into nourishment. This was as "self-sufficient" as life has ever been.

How do you benefit from eating? You are taking the energy that another living thing stored and converting it into the materials you need to live and grow. I don't see how that is giving up anything so maybe you could rephrase your query?

Chris - I'm not exactly sure what you're asking but I'll try to respond:

"how does a self-sufficient organism benefit by giving up its self-sufficiency?"

First of all, nothing is self-sufficient. Every living thing is a system that takes in inputs (food) and processes them. Even the algae that clung to the rocks for the first billion years of life converted sunlight into nourishment. This was as "self-sufficient" as life has ever been.

How do you benefit from eating? You are taking the energy that another living thing stored and converting it into the materials you need to live and grow. I don't see how that is giving up anything so maybe you could rephrase your query?

Thanks for the response Jimmy. Well, self-sufficient is as you put it - the organism doesn't have to hunt for food, it just basks in the light.

At some point, the basking in the light changed to being a predator which requires an entirely different 'digestive system'. I'm not seeing how 'Survival of the fittest' fits into this context. What environment would cause a self-sufficient organism to be able to digest, or even know that a replacement energy source exists in the first place? I doubt two organisms bumping into each other sparked a digestive system and the an insatiable carniverous diet.