General Music Chat

He was a spiritual Billionaire.. lol

Craig, you are citing things that cannot possibly be counted.

Of course not. Estimations are made, to make a reasonable assessment. But, people with vested interests in proving their own case will tend to inflate numbers, and the other side will tend to deflate them.

You read alot of resources and find the best average you can.

No more can I PROVE that more people died by religion than you can PROVE that more people died by communism.

Communism has been a SCOURGE on humanity. There is no doubt that TENS OF MILLIONS have been murdered or starved to death under Communism


If we were speaking only of MASS DEATHS in history, it is likely that more people have died of diseases and plagues throughout history than anything else.

After that, might be economic reasons. A statement attributed to both Hemmingway and McArthur is... "Wars are caused by undefended wealth".

Maybe not all of them, but it is likely that MOST of them are.

So, if I were to guess on the top 2 causes of death in the world, that would be my guess.

1) Diseases/Plagues
2) Greed

But focusing on a SINGLE political, religious or philosophical entity?

Communism would have to be way up there at the top.

Religion is not even close to ANY of those.

I believe there is abundant evidence that religion has done far more good in the world, than harm.

In this country, we have a tradition of honoring the "Rule of Law".

Law has probably been one of the most important milestones toward civilized society. Peoples group together, for safety, support, economic stability, etc... But traditionally "LAW" is what allows such a large group to coexist in relative peace and cooperation.

I would propose that the establishment of the "Rule of Law" has it's origins in RELIGIOUS observance. Among the oldest legal codes, of which a copy exists, was The Code of Hammurabi which dates back 3800 years. Hammurabi claimed he had been chosen by the gods to bring law to the people. The preface to this document states:


"Anu and Bel called by name... me, Hammurabi, the exalted prince, who feared God, to bring about the rule of righteousness in the land."

Going further back, (almost 5000 years) the Egyptians had a goddess called Maat.

From Wikipedia:

"Maat was the Ancient Egyptian concept of truth, balance, order, law, morality, and justice. Maat was also personified as a goddess regulating the stars, seasons, and the actions of both mortals and the deities, who set the order of the universe from chaos at the moment of creation."


If you go back through ancient history, tracing the origins of "The Rule of Law" it is inescapable, that law was motivated by RELIGIOUS BELIEFS.

One of the most powerful parts of this reality, and one in which America actually shares, is the concept that even Kings were not above certain fundamental laws. Because the laws were not given by the Kings themselves, but originated from a God, or gods, they were immutable and unchangeable. (the Kings were chosen representatives of the gods to bring the laws to the people)

Our own Declaration of Independence states...

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights"

Despite those who would remove such language from our founding documents, the power of those words is that our RIGHTS and FREEDOM come from GOD, and therefore CANNOT be taken away by MEN... Even Kings! Our Forefather's understood the necessity of such a statement, in order to put our FREEDOM beyond the reach of ANY man, no matter how powerful, and that is the very reason they BEGAN with such a statement.

Religion can be used for bad purposes, just as ANYTHING can be, but humanity would not have reached the level of civility it has, without it.

.

He was a spiritual Billionaire.. lol

I like that.

But I can't buy a 60" flat screen LCD with it.

LOL

.

Has there ever been a person who has spread MORE priceless riches after his death for as LONG as Jesus?

Yes - Buddha, for even a longer amount of time - but that's only a matter of opinion, I suppose.

3 travelers brought him gifts, among 1 was gold. surely for a travel that far and long, it was not for a few tokens. with the family trade of carpentry and a wise head for those times, they would seem to have survived without serious problems.

Yeah he was.

Yes, his family was not destitute.

Yes, he was given a gift of gold.

Yes, he was wearing an expensive tunic, woven without seam, so that the guards drew lots to get it as a souvenier, because they didn't want to rip it into pieces.

But Jesus made himself of no account.

If He had money at one time, they used it for the ministry, traveling expenses, and also feeding the poor. Jesus had a few wealthy benefactors who believed in his ministry. If He was "wealthy" like that, he wouldn't have needed their assistance. He was not hobnobbing with the elite, he was hanging out with whores and drunkards, the reprobate of society.... wink... "The very people which alot of good Christians avoid these days, by staying away from bars and pool halls, just as the faithful high-standard Pharisees did!"


.

Man I wish I'd had that start in life
Gold. Mind the end wasn't good either.

What bothers me is that more is known about king Tut/Rammeses II/Ahmose and plenty more besides. Why is that?

Some good Christians stay away from those places because they present a stumbling block for us.
Guess I aint so f**k good.

OMG!!!!!!

OMG!!!!!!!!!!


Boy am I glad I put that little "barb" in there, about the holier than thou types, who are "better" than to associate with so-called "reprobates" of the community.

OMG!!!!!

I was just ministered to... myself.

In making that statement, I was thinking about how Jesus was always with the reprobates of society, though he was not only a King, but the Son of God... even... God in the flesh!

This made me jump (in my mind) to the story of Jesus being taken through the streets on a colt (or ass or both - biblical translations ) while people threw their cloaks into His path, in honor of the "royalty" passing through their streets.


HERE IS THAT ACCOUNT:

Luke 19:28-40 (New International Version)

The Triumphal Entry

28.) After Jesus had said this, he went on ahead, going up to Jerusalem. 29) As he approached Bethphage and Bethany at the hill called the Mount of Olives, he sent two of his disciples, saying to them, 30) "Go to the village ahead of you, and as you enter it, you will find a colt tied there, which no one has ever ridden. Untie it and bring it here. 31) If anyone asks you, 'Why are you untying it?' tell him, 'The Lord needs it.' "
32) Those who were sent ahead went and found it just as he had told them. 33) As they were untying the colt, its owners asked them, "Why are you untying the colt?"

34) They replied, "The Lord needs it."

35) They brought it to Jesus, threw their cloaks on the colt and put Jesus on it. 36) As he went along, people spread their cloaks on the road.

37) When he came near the place where the road goes down the Mount of Olives, the whole crowd of disciples began joyfully to praise God in loud voices for all the miracles they had seen:
38.) "Blessed is the king who comes in the name of the Lord!"[a]
"Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!"

39) Some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to Jesus, "Teacher, rebuke your disciples!"

40) "I tell you," he replied, "if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out."

Now...

This verse details an event in Jesus' life, that was also a fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy. And many Christians today, think of this verse as triumphant, since many of the people were praising Jesus as their King (the poor people anyway) And in fact, as noted above, it is even referred to as the "Triumphal Entry" into the city.

But it is not awe-inspiring my friends.

It is nearly humiliating.

Jesus, having a LITERAL bloodline of Kings in His veins, and being the intended true King of Israel, the Messiah, they had been waiting thousands of years for... This KING OF ISRAEL should have been crowned with a crown of gold and jewels... NOT THORNS!

This KING OF ISRAEL should have been ushered through the streets with a massive procession of tens of thousands, on Chariots, with a full attachment of guards and servants in a long procession group... NOT ON A DONKEY!

This KING OF ISRAEL should have had his name and title... "JESUS - KING OF ISRAEL" etched into gold plaques and erected on palace walls... NOT something written by the one who sentenced him to death (Pontius Pilate) which was then placed on the cross, the very device of his execution, with the notice stating... "JESUS - KING OF THE JEWS"... but displayed in mockery, as that was the official "charge" which he was pronounced guilty of violating.

JESUS IS A KING

He should have enjoyed the real trappings of royalty.

But look at how the people... particularly the ultra-religious ultra-fundamental ones among them, treated Him? They screamed for His crucifixion!

And here's the thing...


HE TOOK IT!!!!!

HE TOOK IT ALL!!!!!!

And not in hatred or judgement.


What love. What meekness... what humility.

The poor and retrobate among the people worshipped Him as a King in that story, but only in the "spirit" of a royal occassion, because in poverty... they couldn't supply all the accoutrement that should have accompanied such an event... but they offered what little they had.

Jesus accepted it.


It would be like having the brain of a Stephen Hawkings, yet almost no one in the world that "mattered" acknowledged or even realized your intelligence, but one poor kid from the ghetto sees you, and walks up and hands you the little "certificate" that his 3rd grade teacher had given the child in school as a reward, and it stated "Brainiac". And you are moved, though you know you have the best mind in the world and are not appreciated for it... still... you are moved by this child's gesture.

And what if you had to live your life as the world's best brain, and yet NEVER EVER get the recognition for it?

How hard is that?

We would feel as if we had just lived a failed life.

All this potential, all this talent... OUR BIRTHRIGHT!!!! ... All seemingly stripped from us, and living as if we were of no consequence whatsoever.

Humbling... to say the least.


YET OUT OF LOVE... JESUS ENDURED JUST THAT!!!


Not to mention His incredible physical suffering, involving beatings that were so severe, that the Bible describes Jesus as being "marred more than any man" - unrecognizable, for the disfigurement. And then a slow, excrutiating execution that lasted 6 hours, before He succomed to death.


Now...


There is a reason that all this ministered to me TODAY, and very meaningfully so, though I have read this account in the Bible over 100 times easily.


Last night... I was literally starting to walk from Georgia (I'm living in Saint Mary's Georgia now) all the way to Florida... probably a 15 or 20 hour walk or more, to get to the closest homeless shelter I could find when I searched the internet.

Homeless Shelter?

Yep. I almost posted this last night.... "May not be on the internet for many months, guys"


I thought my marriage was over last night.


Without getting into details, the last 7 years of this life, have been exceptionally trying on me, and even the last year and half, for my wife, has been a nightmare for her, because of her two boys going to juvenile... one just came home btw... (it's been a year and three months)

A bunch of sh*t has happened in our lives over the last few years. Her boys in juvie, the economy, our finances, my band basically firing me because I would not give them copyright to my songs, etc...

We had a huge argument, involving not just her, but her step-brother and his wife as well.

I decided this was enough, after 7 years.

I didn't want my mother knowing where I was either. I just planned on going to a shelter that puts you up for several months, so you can get on your feet, and I was basically going to be starting over.

But I couldn't leave last night, because I had no way down there, and that long of a walk in this cold, for a big guy like me? Not a wise thing to do at 3am in the morning.

She didn't want me to leave, when she found out what my plans were.

We talked and she told me... "It's just your temper... you talking too strong to the kids... that's the only real problem I have with you! Are you telling me you don't care enough about us to fix that one thing?"

"No, what I'm telling you, is that from where I sit, if I toned down my volume, you might be happy, but it wouldn't solve the issues I have with you, your kids or your family for that matter!"

Ooops #1

"What issues?", she asked.

"I can be as good an influence as possible on these kids, teach them everything that I know in my heart is right and teach them about what good character consists of, and why it is so important, and yet... It is accomplishing nothing apparently... look at the trouble they got into last year... look at the poor influence their extended family is... they have affairs... they lie... their own father gave them pot to put them to sleep when they were only 5 and 7 years old!!! How does one person overcome an entire family... an entire culture... so that my influence remains stronger on them than the bad ones in their own family? It's not possible!"


Ooops #2


"Oh".. she said, "So, you are saying that you are better than all of us?"

"No, what I am saying is that I have more CHARACTER than anyone in either side of these kid's family! And surrounded by your family all these years, it just feels as if, I was a person who never ate pork, for religious reasons, but was surrounded by nothing but pork-eaters for 7 years!!! It's breaking my spirit! I feel like I can't breathe...spiritually!!! This has gone on long enough!"

Ooops #3


And that's where Jesus' humility came into play!

I had posted the other response in this thread, the one with the barb against the "self-righteous", I was re-reading it after I posted it, for errors, and suddenly I thought about these events in Jesus' life once more. All these occassions, where he was treated like a King, but it being more like His having been crowned King of the Cow-Poop festival.

This was the Son of God, who was not "too good" to humble Himself, and allow evil people to have their way with Him, mocking him, beating Him... Even MURDERING HIM!

Rather than being TRULY CROWNED a King, it was more like they CALLED him a King while putting a dunce cap on His head every time, as some pseudo-crown.

His love overcame that.

The one who deserved ALL PRAISE, accepted ALL MOCKERY. To win their hearts over. To give them an example of true love, love unto death... love that is ever flowing, whether they return it or not... love that survives death... love that changed the hearts of His disciples, who ALL went to torture and executions for His testimony... Love that occurred in an obscure part of the Middle East, among people who would have NEVER EVER been known or remembered by history, and yet... That love story, has now spread throughout the world, and touched millions upon millions of hearts worldwide.


YES... I really was saying I was "BETTER" than her and her family, afterall!


And yet the one who TRULY WAS better than anyone who ever walked the Earth... He didn't feel the need to stand up and demand, what was in truth, His birthright!

He didn't demand palaces... He hung out with the poor and reprobate!

He was a King, and yet hung as a criminal... and from the cross, He didn't yell back at his executioners... "You'll see... wait till you see what will happen to your lives for rejecting me!!!!" No... He said "Forgive them, for they know not what they do."

But the family I committed my life to, the woman I committed my life to...

I'm too "good" for her? For them?

What an arrogant ASS I am!


Jesus suffered all that He did... for one single reason... for love.


And I am offended inside myself, because people needing a closer relationship with God in their lives make moral mistakes?

Of course they do.

Why should I have expected something different?

But here was the REAL question...


"Why was I not bringing them that same love, that I know God gives me?"


Hmm....


Because I am sharing God's truth out of self-righteousness maybe, and not enough out of.... LOVE!


Oh... wow!!!


This is one of those pivotal moments.

If I show my self-righteous ass again, here on this forum...

PLEASE... just remind me of this day!


Meanwhile I have some repenting and making up to do!

.

Won't go into a whole big exlanantion of my views on religions in general, as it seems to fire people up, and, lets face it, opinions are just that and nothing more...opinions.

But, I would say "No", he wasn't wealthy.

Some good Christians stay away from those places because they present a stumbling block for us.

That is wise.

It is the others I was referring to.

The ones who judge ACTIONS above the HEART.

This is like when Jesus CLEARLY violated the law, and His disciples with Him, when he didn't wash his hands for instance, and the religious-fundies rejected Jesus and His disciples for it.

They felt...

"Look... Clearly these are sinners. How can they be of God? They didn't follow God's laws... They violated proper worship protocol! Beware everyone! Don't listen to these people!"

The Bible is full of examples of people who APPEARED irreligious at times, even though God's hand was upon them, and they were literally in the midst of doing God's work.

That is the danger of elevating RELIGION and RELIGIOUS OBSERVANCE, over LOVE, and REAL service to God, and service to His children as well... lost or otherwise.

Yeah brother...

I wasn't suggesting that all Christians should start hanging out in strip clubs enmasse or anything!

LOL

.

What bothers me is that more is known about king Tut/Rammeses II/Ahmose and plenty more besides. Why is that?

Because Jesus was an obscure preacher in an obscure part of the world, with less than a handful of followers at His death... in fact, only one disciple even went there to be near Him, when he was executed.

The other disciples feared a similar fate... death on a cross, as criminals, so they abandoned Jesus in his darkest hour.

This is part of what makes the RESSURECTION of Jesus so believable.

These disciples completely, almost to a man, ABANDONED Jesus... BEFORE he was executed. They feared torture and death, as most people did.

But AFTER THE EXECUTION.... When Jesus resurrected from the dead, and began appearing to the disciples, and ministering to them, they REALIZED that Jesus had told them the truth. He had beaten death. They were talking to their messiah, and friend again. This PROVED to them, that they had nothing to fear from death, as followers of Jesus Christ.

They were reinvigorated, and eventually...

ALL THE APOSTLES, all but one (and even that one is questioned) DIED SIMILAR TORTUROUS DEATHS as Jesus... This time WILLINGLY and ON THEIR OWN!!!

One even demanded that he be crucified upside down, because he felt unworthy to die in the exact manner as his Lord and Savior.

Something accounts for the 180 degree turn around in the apostles.

One day running from the prospect of death.

And not long after, welcoming it.

Something had convinced them that death was nothing compared to what awaited them after death.

The resurrection is the only thing I know of, that acounts for it.

They not only SAW Jesus, after knowing He had been crucified to death, but they ATE with Him... They TOUCHED Him... They embraced him.

It changed their entire outlook, from weak cowards, to boldly facing torturous deaths themselves. And EVERY SINGLE one... tortured and murdered for the faith, except the Apostle John, the one who had remained with Jesus' mother at the foot of the cross when Jesus was executed... and he is also the Author of "The Gospel of John" and "The Book of Revelation" as well as... 1 John, 2 John and 3 John (although there is some scholarly dispute about those last three)

John who was banished to the Isle of Patmos, was kept alive, like his counterpart Daniel, before him, in order that revelation of future things could be given and transcribed.

The result was The Book of Revelation.

.

God led me to share this project with "musicians with a mission"...
If you feel the calling, please visit: www.HearGodSpeak.net

Allen Petrowski
Co-creator of "Hear God Speak"
Email: Allen@HearGodSpeak.net

God led me to share this project with "musicians with a mission"...
If you feel the calling, please visit: www.HearGodSpeak.net

Allen Petrowski
Co-creator of "Hear God Speak"
Email: Allen@HearGodSpeak.net

Welcome to BandMix Allen!

I'll check your project out tonight sometime!

.