General Music Chat

Phil,

You have free will. Everyone does.

That's your "belief". But not a fact... There are quite a few people who believe Free Will does not exist. You're behavior is the product of your brain programming...

Just interjecting...

We discussed this a little before. I think it's an interesting concept, but I just can't buy into it. Think about human interaction alone. You are suggesting that when we have deep or serious conversations, that the topics begun... and the responses that then get offered, and then the responses to those responses, etc... All the back and forth banter... All programmed? Programmed to start conversations, and then other people programmed to answer them in preconceived laid out ways, as if following a script? Who wrote the script? Why do they need to have conversations with themselves through other beings? Is this driving, or rather PROGRAMMING "force" that is doing all this programming... actually schizophrenic?

And if the response to that, would be... "There is not a "single" programmer, but individual organisms independently, are programmed through evolutionary processes, so that there are billions of independent programmers."

My response would be... how is that possible? How is it that the individual cells that make up my being have somehow programmed what becomes a cohesive whole... And yet, the brainpower, the sense of self, that I call "ME" cannot control this organization of cells that make me... me? How is it that I, being the controller of the conscious thought of my own being, is somehow unable to control the self... MY... self, even though this is what I desire?

Which leads to another question...

"How am I programmed, BEYOND MY CONTROL, and yet "I DESIRE" to HAVE free will, to make my own choices?

Did this "controlling" or "programming" presence... Also program me, to want to be free of the very programmer that programmed me?

Isn't that self-defeating?

Evolutionary processes help us develop traits that INCREASE our chances of survival, not lower them. Wouldn't this be de-evolutionary? Evolution somehow working against itself? Otherwise, how can I be divided in "PURPOSE" from what I am "PROGRAMMED" to do, and even to want?

I think that is impossible, the more I think about it.

Yep.

Utter nonsense.

Amazing how these highly educated people, come up with the most nonsensical and illogical theories.

.

Amazing.

Amazing.

.

I must intercede and disagree here Craig. (only on the part about evolution)
The weakening of the human race in resistance to disease. As well as
our "science" continually interfering in the natural selection process thereby allowing the physically and mentally unfit to breed for generations is a form of de-evolution if you will.
The majority of the global population would not survive a week in the natural state of animal existence. (how many would die of heat stroke because they are too weak or too fat, if the electrical power grid would fail for a year due to a sun spot)
Thus in a way our mental evolution has weakened our physical evolution.
Accounting for our numbers this may seem quite irrelevant. However I for one believe that our planetary future holds for us a failure of technology that will lead to a near mass extinction (again) of the human race.

George,

Technology seems at times, both a blessing and a curse.

I don't necessarily disagree with you there.

I think about the Unibomber, and that was his whole schtick. He bombed people because he was against a technological society. Although, as happens with deranged individuals, it is unusual, that his solution to an IMPERSONAL world, was to PERSONALLY kill people.

But he did have a point to some degree.

Technology probably has contributed to a harsher, less personal world, in some ways, although it greatly improves our lives in others.

What I decided though (so far - LOL) is that God expects us to utilize technology. There is no possibility of exploring the cosmos to settle other worlds in the distant future... Which is God's goal, and is precisely the reason He created, what seems to us, almost an infinite expanse. God gave us room to grow, expand, prosper and survive.

It was a waste of His energies to create something so vast otherwise.

So, I conclude that we NEED technology, and that God WANTS us to harness technologies, to develop and spread the species. However, we need to learn how to utilize technology in safe, non-wasteful, productive and helpful ways. Only the last hundred years, has seen unprecedented advancements in science. It is still relatively new to us. We need to learn to use these gifts WISELY, and for the betterment of ALL humanity.


BTW...


No one ever commented on my theory... well, not a theory, as much as playful theorizing. But, awhile back, I had posted some "thoughts" that occurred to me one day, where I wondered whether aliens were possibly...

1) Time travelers from the future.
2) People having VISIONS of OUR FUTURE.

On the first one... Time Travel is a very real possibility, as weird as that seems. Nothing in the accepted theories of physics prevents the possibility of Time Travel existing. (So I have heard). And time travel "technically" has already been proving, although, not traveling BACK into time. An astronaut which spent a year and half in space or something, was literally .2 seconds (2/10ths of a second) younger, when he returned from space. It is known that the faster an object is moving, the slower that object ages. So for example, a spaceship moving a blazing speeds, would cause the people INSIDE the spaceship to age more slowly.

On the second one, I have pondered that, if the aliens and spaceships people see are NOT physically real, perhaps they are having some vision, some premonition type of experience, and actually looking into the future?

What both these ideas kind of come from, is the thought I had awhile back, that aliens could very well be an evolutionary advancement of... "US"

Think about evolution for a moment. Our earlier ancestors were hairy compared with us. More like animals with hair all over their bodies. As man's ancestors have advanced and evolved over millions of years, particularly the last few hundred thousands I suppose, we have lost hair because it serves less of a purpose for us now, after harnessing tools and using clothes and controlling fire, etc... Hair all over our bodies protect us from the elements, just as they do on animals. That protection has been less required, as we have moved out of the trees and plains of the jungles and into clothes and man-made shelters. Consequently, we have lost much of our body hair over time.

What else has occurred over that time?

Our brains have become larger.

If you look at artist depictions of alien encounters with supposed eye-witnesses, they most commonly look similar to this guy...





What are the obvious features, when contrasted with humans?


1) Hairless bodies
2) Enlarged head
3) Enlarged eyes


If through evolution we have lost most of our body hair, as we have retreated from nature into the indoors, perhaps far down the line, when we are traveling through space and have harnessed technologies we only dream about now, maybe we lose ALL OF OUR HAIR?

Large heads, would accomodate large brains. Which leads me to believe that perhaps this evolution continues, as we gain more and more knowledge, and our brains get larger, hence the out of proportion head to body. And we rely so heavily on vision (most people) and they are perfecting programs now, which allow visual control of computers, as opposed to having a hand on a mouse, or voice commands... perhaps that would explain the larger eyes?

Anyway...

It struck me as an interesting idea, as I thought about it, that these "aliens" may very well be what "WE" would like, with continued evolutionary procresses.

Any comments?

.

Dang he's ugly.

If they exist. And they are here among us. SOMEONE KNOWS !!

These are the people I'd be concerned about.

Dang he's ugly.

If they exist. And they are here among us. SOMEONE KNOWS !!

These are the people I'd be concerned about.

True that!


LOL


ON THE CON SIDE:

It bothers me there is no REAL and TANGIBLE physical evidence, that is without question, authentic. The government cannot possibly collect EVERY piece of whatever evidence there may be, they cannot confiscate EVERY video, every photo, etc... And with the proliferation of video surveilance, and devices like cell-phones and traffic poles, that have cameras... I mean, there has never been more CAMERAS and VIDEO-CAMERAS worldwide, at any other time in history, than today. Why is there not a corresponding increase in documentary evidence of these people and their vehicles? It seems like, the more devices we have to record these things, the less photos and videos there seem to be? How does that work? Do the "aliens" know we can film them better now, so they don't visit us often? Sounds silly.

ON THE PRO SIDE:

There are manhy numerous rerports of such events, with artist depictions of what the creatures supposedly look like. How do people worldwide, come up with the same imagery of these beings? Before widespread news through CNN and internet, and in the past, less contact internationally, between our CITIZENS (not government relations) and other CITIZENS... how did these people manage to come up with such similar depictions of these things?

And a more powerful point to me, is the high caliber professionals that are now on board, demanding government opening the books, because these professionals I am speaking of, pilots and military personnel, are coming forward in higher numbers, claiming they have seen phenomena that, as pilots, are not possible with our technologies. They have seen what to them, could only be moving vehicles, that move in ways, and at speeds, which are foreign to our understanding at this time.

They even gathered together, many of them, and had a press conference not long ago (I had posted the link here before) where they told the world...

"SOMEONE is out there! Time for the governments of the world to release what they know, if they are witholding information."


These are well respected people.

Of course, what they "SAW" could be some other natural phenomenon that we are unaware of, I suppose.

But they seem convinced.

And they are the experts among us, on FLIGHT through the air, and through space.


.

We discussed this a little before. I think it's an interesting concept, but I just can't buy into it. Think about human interaction alone. You are suggesting that when we have deep or serious conversations, that the topics begun... and the responses that then get offered, and then the responses to those responses, etc... All the back and forth banter... All programmed? Programmed to start conversations, and then other people programmed to answer them in preconceived laid out ways, as if following a script?

Not a script Craig.

This is where it is going to be difficult for me to explain because you're not a programmer. I am, and so that gives me a leg up on understanding this... I'll try my best.


A computer program is not the same thing as a script. An SQL script, for instance, is meant to be executed in a linear fashion and accomplish some work. And if that is all programming was, then I wouldn't "buy it" either.


But a computer program can be a very complex thing that is not script-like in it's execution. It doesn't just execute instructions in a linear order - it responds to input. Most computer programs sit around idle in a waiting loop, until they receive input. Then they analyze that input. If it meets a certain criteria, the program takes action.

The bigger and more complex the program, the more different kinds of input and combinations of input it can respond to.


The human brain is incredibly complex. It's completely in the realm of possibility that it can respond to all inputs given to it because most input can be simplified and categorized. After all, most input can be broken down into broader categories. For instance - a threat to a person's life. That can take any number of shapes and forms, but the brain can categorize that quickly into "life threatening situation" and from there, it can quickly analyze the context (place, time, number of other people involved, weapons, hazards) and can formulate a response (output).

Who wrote the script?

There is no script.

"How am I programmed, BEYOND MY CONTROL, and yet "I DESIRE" to HAVE free will, to make my own choices?

These are just concepts. "Desire" is something you feel. It takes a different form than something more direct and basic, like pain. But what is pain? Pain is a response to stimulus. You "feel" the pain when some part of your physical being is "hurt". So just like a computer program - you have input (hurt) and you have an output (pain). And according to your programming, you will respond to the pain (some people will try and avoid that pain, others might confront it, others may actually *enjoy* it...)

Did this "controlling" or "programming" presence... Also program me, to want to be free of the very programmer that programmed me?

You're thinking of God. That's the wrong way to think of this. Your programming is in your head - in your neurons and cells. It's an actual, physical thing.

In a computer, the programming is in the memory chips - it resides in there as zeros and ones. The CPU interprets those zeros and ones and does its work.

Your zeros and ones are your neurons in your head. They form a complex programming language in your brain. Your brain knows how to interpret those neurons and other brain chemicals and perform actions.

And sometimes, people's brains don't work correctly. For example, some people's brains, when interpreting language, don't interpret them in the same order that most people do. They transpose letters. They have a condition called Dyslexia. Their brain - their CPU - works slightly differently.

Other people, for instance, are aroused sexually by young children. Or they suffer from a feeling of depression. Or they are bipolar. Or they don't have the capacity to feel the way most people do (Asperger's). All of these things are directly related to the way their brains work.

Evolutionary processes help us develop traits that INCREASE our chances of survival, not lower them.

Ah, but we thwart evolutionary processes all the time! We don't let our sick and cripple die out - we save them. We have elaborate health care agencies setup just to make sure our least favorable genes continue to breed. We perform plastic surgery on our bodies to make us more attractive so that we can propagate. We are ensuring weak genetics in every generation, more so now than we were 5,000 years ago.... We are our own worst enemy when it comes to the evolutionary process...

Evolution somehow working against itself?

We work against evolution. We've reached a critical point in our evolution. We've become smarter than other creations, so natural evolutionary forces don't have as much impact on us because we're using our intelligence to thwart it. But we're not smart enough to realize what we're doing. We still have a lot of growing up to do... as a species..

You're thinking of God.

Nope. Not at all.

I am addressing your term... "Programming"


Programming, by definition, requires a PROGRAMMER.

You can call that PROGRAMMER... nature, or whatever else you want, but PROGRAMMING is done by a PROGRAMMER. Someone or Something, creates the INSTRUCTIONS. Amazingly, you even used yourself (a programmer) as an example of someone who creates PROGRAMS. So, even in your example, your PROGRAMS required a PROGRAMMER!

YOU are the programmer.

Although, you shouldn't call yourself that, if you really believe that we have no free will. Cause in that case, YOU are not the programmer, but "YOUR" PROGRAMMER, whatever "it" is, has programmed YOU, to create what you seem to think are YOUR programs... when in reality, YOU have been programmed to create other programs, so you are just a pawn in all this.... with no original ideas and no independent will, which begs the question of why I even argue with you, and hope for some Eureka moment for you?

But, I realize of course, that you have been programmed to disagree with me, so I won't bother asking you not to do that.

But... PROGRAMMING?

Maybe you want to use different terminology?

We still have a lot of growing up to do... as a species..

I certainly agree with your puppet master (uhh... programmer) on that one!



.

Colors,

You know I am just being tongue in cheek with you on that last response?

I love debating stuff like this.

It's just too extreme and illogical of a position for me to buy into.


If you were postulating that through millions of years of evolution, we have become hardwired to generally make stock responses to familiar scenarios, so that we have MUCH LESS free will, than we would like to believe, say... "70% instict... 30% free will"

I could probably agree with that.

But to say "NO FREE WILL" as an absolute statement?

That's just an extreme position, and quite frankly, to me... foolish.

Why are we even sitting here arguing about anything? Why is there ANY division, if we are both PROGRAMMED by something else?

Sounds like a typical atheist argument (lack of argument) which is designed to allow them to remove RESPONSIBILITY from their lives.

"We can do whatever we choose, because we can't help ourselves... we're programmed to do those things."

Wild West Baby!

What fun!!!

Well...

Not really.


Chaos and cruelty are the only possible results from that line of thinking, and it is always only a matter of time, when our own cruelty, revisits us, through someone else's cruelty.


Did you see the thread disproving the lie that religion has been the cause of more deaths than anything else? The facts are, that ATHEISTIC Communism has been UNEQUALLED in the tens of millions they have murdered.

But this makes perfect sense to me, because atheists do not find the same intrinsic value in human life, as religious people generally do. It's all programming without heart... People are expendable and disposable (a hint of which you even acknowledge in suggesting that we should NOT be keeping old people alive) Yet, when people are thought of as disposable, without any Creator to answer to, then there is no real ULTIMATE recourse, for atheistic communists in murdering as many people as necessary for the "Revolution" to maintain control and spread.

We become nothing more than a more advanced animal.

Killing a person, would not be much different than killing a rat.

We're all, only animals after all.

.

.

Tiger Woods scandal cost shareholders up to $12 billion

MIAMI (Reuters) - The sex scandal that engulfed Tiger Woods may have cost shareholders of companies endorsed by the world's No. 1 golfer up to $12 billion in losses, according to a study by two economics professors from the University of California, Davis.


FULL STORY:

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE5BS38I20091229?type=sportsNews

.

There would be a significant loss in the short term, but 12 BILLION?

That figure seems really high to me.


.

In the 1st place - I wonder about your numbers, Craig, for religious-based deaths. You are only taking the Spanish Inquisition into account. Howzabout the islamic jihads of the past? Now add in the deaths perpetrated by Charlemagne & his ilk. Then add in the Thuggee (followers of Kali) & thier unknown numbers of ppl killed in the name of thier religion. You really should add in the nazi killings, as well, since that movement so closely followed the religious paradigm. Same with the followers of Confucius, & yes, even the frightening communist model closely follows the parameters of a religion.

When all of these are taken into account, it's possible that the numbers will actually come close to that which is caused by greed & economic needs (the source of deaths in ouir civil war).

I wouldn't say that religions cause more war-related deaths than anything else, but it's right up there in the top 2, I'd wager.


Second - if indeed we ARE "programmed" by our evolution, there would indeed be random responses to random stimulae, which would eventually become part of our future programming.

If you tend to look at our brains like a psychiatrist, you will see all of our actions as chemical actions within the brain. All thoughts are chemically produced. All responses can be predicted, provided you know the make-up for any particular person's brain. There is some credence to this view, when you look at how our new brain drugs are working on us, both as individuals AND as a society.

We have "evolved," in a societal way, to accept sicknesses of the brain. We have been taught that some ppl simply cannot help being what & who they are. Alcoholism is a disease, not a life choice. Ditto for heroin addiction, or sex-addiction, or gambling addiction, or...well...pick a fetish, if you wish, & there's someone out there telling you that it can't be helped, & that it needs to be treated chemically.

If the psychiatrist view is the correct one (& I'm not really saying that it is) then there is no free will. We are victims of our chemicals, combined with life's random stimulae, & we have no control.

Therefore, we ARE animals, pure & simple, in this view. Nothing whatsoever lofty or spiritual about us at all.


Third - your theory on the aliens being from the future is nothing new. I've read it in sci-fi, & seen it on tv movies. It seems a little off to me, though, when you consider the distance involved. What I mean is - in a single month, our world travels through space quite far (I forget the actual distance, but our entire solar system is constantly on the move AWAY from the original big bang). In order for us to travel through time, we must also travel through vast distances in space, simultaneously. Terrain is vastly different over time, as well, & defining the perfect point in time & space seems to me to be difficult to the point of impossible.

If these are future ppl coming back to see whatever they wanna see, there would bound to be a LOT more crashes - impacts with jets in flight, or buildings, or hills & mountains that don't exist in some far distant future. The crash at Rozwell was supposed to be where 2 alien vehicles hit each other. That would seem to me to be far more common, if these are time travelers. There is no way they could know every point in time & space where it would be safe to pop into this time frame.

Nah - I just don't believe that's the case.

But this makes perfect sense to me, because atheists do not find the same intrinsic value in human life, as religious people generally do.

Tongue in cheek or not, that's offensive.

I find Atheists actually value human life more than Christians do. This is anecdotal, of course. But logical, if you think about it. An Atheist doesn't believe in life after death, so that makes the life MORE valuable, not less. Christians are the ones who, to me, seem to value life less. They're the ones that are always first to want to start wars and fight; they don't care as much about throwing away a few hundred thousand lives because, hey, you get to go to heaven afterward, and that's a better place anyway. Right?

People are expendable and disposable (a hint of which you even acknowledge in suggesting that we should NOT be keeping old people alive)

I never suggested that. Again, Craig, don't put words in my mouth. I stated that what we do works against evolution. I did not make any statement about how I feel about that. Quite honestly, I don't know how I feel about it. So don't try and read things into what I say that isn't there. Okay?

Yet, when people are thought of as disposable, without any Creator to answer to, then there is no real ULTIMATE recourse, for atheistic communists in murdering as many people as necessary for the "Revolution" to maintain control and spread.

The ultimate recourse to an Atheist is losing your life. And since you only have one, that seems pretty ULTIMATE to me.

You should spend a day thinking like an Atheist, instead of thinking like a Christian trying to think like an Atheist....

There's a big difference.

Colors,
It's just too extreme and illogical of a position for me to buy into.

Not illogical. You need to educate yourself about logic Craig.

But to say "NO FREE WILL" as an absolute statement?

You have to be open minded about it, and I can understand how that would be hard for you, a Christian.

If you really think about it, you can see the logic. If your brain is nothing more than chemical reactions AND if those chemical reactions control your behavior, then it's completely possible that everything you think and feel and do is controlled by your brain.

What I find astounding is how much people can credit their brains with, yet when it comes to certain things they just can't accept that their brain is responsible.

Like, you can tell someone that your brain is responsible for controlling your breathing because it sends electrical signals to your body and thus you involuntarily breath in and out and fill your body with life sustaining oxygen. But tell that same person that their brain controls their reaction to child pornography, and they immediately dismiss that and say "Free Will" and "responsibility". It's a load of B.S. It's just your brain reacting to input.

That's just an extreme position, and quite frankly, to me... foolish.

Doesn't seem foolish to me. Seems like if we were to accept it as a fact, or if we can eventually prove it to be so scientifically, then we can begin to take steps to correct many of our problems.

What seems "foolish" to me is ignoring the possibility, and continuing to pray to an invisible, and quite possibly nonexistent "God".

Imagine if we were able to prove, without a doubt, that all of our behavior is governed by our brains and the chemical process in them. Imagine what road that would lead down? What could we do if we knew that with certainty? Could we cure ourselves of things like pedophiles? How many pedophiles have you heard of who feel like they're cursed? They don't want to be the way they are, but they are. They can't help it. What if we could develop a drug that altered the brain chemistry in just the right way so that we could eliminate the "urges" they feel when they're around children? What if they could "feel" the same way a normal person, like you or I do, when we're around kids?

But we'll never develop that drug and we'll never pursue that solution because we continue to believe in "God" and "Free Will" and we believe that poor person is just evil and full of demons...

I say is much less foolish to throw out the witchcraft and start focusing on the science of our brain... We might actually be able to come up with ANSWERS instead of hocus pocus.

Why are we even sitting here arguing about anything? Why is there ANY division, if we are both PROGRAMMED by something else?

I don't know what causes the programming - but I am guessing it is a combination of factors. Genetic, social, environmental... I know we "learn" as we grow. Some instincts are obviously built into us through our genetic code.

As to the first part of that question, Why are we arguing about anything? Because our brains are programmed to do that. It's that simple.

Sounds like a typical atheist argument (lack of argument) which is designed to allow them to remove RESPONSIBILITY from their lives.

I don't see it that way. I see it as putting the responsibility where it belongs. I think as long as you think a persons "Free Will" is where the responsibility lies, then you will forever - for as long as man is alive - have problems. You will always have pedophiles and killers and rapists and people who seek destruction and discourse.

But the moment you put the responsibility where it belongs - in the brain - then you can actually start to solve problems.

I am a problem solver by nature. It's what I do. And one thing I hate is people who refuse to solve problems because they first refuse to find the root cause.

The root cause of someone who is, for instance, a pedophile, is what? What do you think it is? A bad spirit? Possession? A demon?

I think it's their brain chemistry.

Which of these problems can be solved?

"We can do whatever we choose, because we can't help ourselves... we're programmed to do those things."

Wild West Baby!

Wrong way to think about it Craig. The correct way to think about it is like this: "I now know where the CAUSE of the problem is. I know where the RESPONSIBLE component is. I can troubleshoot that component and I can FIX IT".


When your truck craps out, what do you do? Do you call a clergy? Do you call a priest? Do you perform an exorcism? Some kind of holy ritual and hope it works?

Or do you call a MECHANIC and have them DIAGNOSE the problem? And what happens when he tells you the fuel filter is busted? Do you tell the truck to use its WILLPOWER to fix itself? Or do you fix the component that's broken?

Your body is a machine. A highly evolved, complex machine. But a machine nonetheless. And if we would quit treating it as a mystical force of supernatural nature, and start treating it as the machine it is, we could actually go about fixing it.

Fortunately, some people are already doing this... We do it for Alzheimers, and we do it for Cancer... and we're beginning to develop drugs that can help fight things like bipolar disease... There's hope because we do have some scientists around...

Chaos and cruelty are the only possible results from that line of thinking,

I think that's incredibly narrow-minded. I think there are other possibilities, of which I just outlined.

We become nothing more than a more advanced animal.

We're an advanced machine.

Killing a person, would not be much different than killing a rat.

It already isn't any different. That's what's funny about you Christian types... you actually think there's a difference...
[/quote]

You have to be open minded about it, and I can understand how that would be hard for you, a Christian.

Let's start with this statement, which kind of pisses me off, because of how ridiculous it is, if you have read even a little of the things I post.

Didn't you say that you were offended by the comment I made about atheists not valuing life as much as religious people? And yet at least I added the caveat... "In GENERAL" so as to avoid you thinking I believe that would apply to ALL atheists, and yet, after getting mad at me for a GENERALIZATION, you up it, and label ALL CHRISTIANS as closed minded.

A little hypocritical, isn't it?

And I take personal offense to that particularly, because I am the most open minded Christian you are ever likely to find. And I am a VERY open minded person, as ALL PEOPLE go. I'm not locked into ANY belief system, that I won't change if shown how it is wrong, or shown a better way.

How many Christians do you know who...

1) Supports legalization of drugs.
2) Supports gay marriage.
3) Accepts that there are errors in the Bible.
4) Accepts that some of the Bible is mythologically based. i.e. The Creation story... and Noah and the flood, for example.
5) Believes that ALL RELIGIONS have received inspiration from God, and not just Christianity.
6) Believes that salvation is between ONE PERSON and GOD, and is not dependent on scripture, or which religion you belong to, or even whether someone has a clue about Jesus' sacrifice on the cross or not.


Do you find that any of those are typical positions for a Christian?


.