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#94567 by philbymon
Sat Dec 26, 2009 12:35 am
sans, I didn't say that god wanted to control us, but ppl do try to in his name all the time, don't they?

God is quite fond of our having free will, unlike the uber-religious or politically active people of any given time.

As far as the trigger finger, well, my penis ain't gonna kill anyone (too small, alas - it's hell being hung like a bug!), & trust me, it's used far too rarely to really get me into any kind of trouble with anyone. Still, given the right circumstances, I would use it as well as I might.

I won't have any Falwell or Pope or Bin Laden or Bush or Obama tell me what I may or may not do with the thing, in any case, & the opinions of others mean nothing to me in this area.

I do my very best to do no harm, but when ppl stand in my way, well, they sometimes are apt to get hurt when they try to control me. I figger that that is for me to do, & not others. I usually choose pretty well, & I can accept it when I flook up, like any other guy does.

I cannot & will not accept others trying to tell me what to do. Never have. Never will. What I choose to do with my body & mind is mine to choose, & that includes the subjects of sex, drugs, rock & roll, food, spare time, reading material, etc etc etc.

#94574 by HowlinJ
Sat Dec 26, 2009 6:30 am
jimmydanger wrote:Tiger would be Lion if he said didn't like Cougars, but he's a Cheetah anyway.


All sounds like pu**y to me, Jimmy! :D

HJ

#94576 by gbheil
Sat Dec 26, 2009 3:45 pm
LOL.... Hung like a bug! now that's funny.

I agree, people always want to control other people and it sucks.
I am just as independently minded as you are Phil.
And it keeps me in trouble for the last 49 years.
I don't dispute over rights either. But when bad choices affect others it becomes more complicated.
I knew you'd bite on the trigger finger comment.
And despite size a poorly managed penis is a deadly weapon.
The WHO say that approximately %40 of the peoples on the African continent (some say %70) are affected with HIV. No one will say for sure about the US population.
We can advertise to inject our young women with anti HPV vaccines. But we can't educate them that f**k like rats is the cause, and the only cause of it's rampant spread.
HIV
HPV
Hepatitis
Syphilis
Gonorrhea
Herpes The list goes on.
Gods "directions" on how to live are intended to protect us so that we may have long healthy productive lives. Not to limit how much fun we have.
So if your going to jump off that cliff. Be sure to use a bungee!
:D

#94580 by CraigMaxim
Sat Dec 26, 2009 6:00 pm
Phil,

You have free will. Everyone does. A religious or philosophical creed that offers instructions or advice for moral living, does not negate your free will, or somehow undermine God's gift of free will in the first place.

Think of it as our own "Freedom of Speech". Freedom of speech allows us to protest a President or Congressman, and even wear a T-Shirt that said something like "Bush Sucks" or "Obama: Socialist States of America" and get away with it, having our voice heard, expressing ourselves freely, etc... But, if we were to scream "Fire!!!!" in a crowded theater, when there was no fire, and people were injured or killed as a result of the prank, then even though this was an act of free speech, because of the nature of the act, and the resultant injuries, we would be prosecuted for a crime.

On the highways of "free" America, we are free to drive across this great nation, to just about wherever we choose, as free citizens. But if we decide to drive on the sidewalk, or through a playground, or through someone else's private property, then we would be in trouble. Even in our "free" society, we have RULES that are designed to ensure freedom for everyone, within reason. The rules help avoid our MISUSING our freedom, and thereby threatening other people's freedoms, or they help protect other's from harm, from our unchecked freedoms.

In a free society, we have freedoms.

In a civil society however, those freedoms come with "clauses".

For a civil society to exist and thrive, it is ESSENTIAL that some agreed upon standards are arrived at, in order for us ALL to have the best balance possible between FREEDOM and CIVILITY (peacefully co-existing).

As a society we make a CHOICE to voluntarily give up certain "freedoms" (like the freedom to drive automobiles on sidewalks rather than roads) in favor of "orderly progression of traffic" - "public safety" and many other considerations.

BALANCE is the goal.

EXTREMISM is the enemy to order and peace and saftey.

To say that "I have a penis" so I should use it whenever and however I choose, regardless of the possible harm brought to others, is simply an uncivil, irresponsible and even childish, position to hold.

You likely wouldn't hold the same position were we speaking of something else, rather than sex.

I would assume that you understand the logic of having laws prohibiting the MISUSE of "free" speech? For example, I could argue that it was my right to free speech, which allows me to ruin your life, by spreading false information about you, to your wife, family and business associates, but if my facts were false, we enter another arena known as "libel". And if I ruined your marriage and your business, through a well-crafted disinformation campaign, besides wanting to kick my ass, would you not be supportive of laws which would have made my actions illegal, and now give you some recourse to punish me, and maybe recoup lost earnings, etc...?

Or even as Sans pointed out, basically that... Regardless of any promises which may have been made, if you feel horny, then that is your green-light, your license to screw whomever you choose. Well, Sans gets urges to murder certain people, he doesn't think are worthy to share our oxygen. :shock: Shouldn't he "obey" those urges, just as you do? You could argue that there is a difference, because sans is enforcing his will against someone else, without consent, by murdering them. But you too, may very well be enforcing your will on others, and without their consent. Like bringing venereal diseases home. Or maybe even introducing a psycho into your wife's life that could eventually bring her harm? Think of Amy Fisher, the young girl who fell in love with the garage owner, and then she went and tried to kill his wife so they could be together. The innocent wife, now has a face that is permanently frozen on one side. That man's wife, has to live the rest of her life now, disfigured, because Why? Because, hell... he had a penis, and when a fairly attractive 17 year old wanted it, by george, it was his OBLIGATION to his own penis to oblige her.

The MOTHER of his OWN CHILDREN, paid a hell of a price for that indiscretion.

They're long divorced... and she's still paying!

You shouldn't hate religious principles and rules so blanketedly.

You don't have as much problem when it is found in other areas of your life. I imagine the "stickmasters" have their own set of rules, that are expected not to be broken? I don't see you bitching about those?

Religion's problem, is that, over time, they take a good thing, way too far.

But many of the initial insights I believe, really are spiritually inspired, and they are there for the BENEFIT of others, not their detriment.

I realized a long time ago, that many, if not most, of the rules that religions lay down, are simply COMMON SENSE! No sex before marriage. Fidelity "IN" marriage. I can give you a laundry list of why these behaviors, while taxing on our self-control, are wise and logical, and help give a couple the best opportunity for a successful marriage. Same with the "weird" dietary laws and laws on cleanliness that are found in Jewish religious laws. Is washing your hands before eating, a bad rule? The admonitions against certain foods, like pork and shellfish, particularly in a more unscientific age, probably alone, saved countless lives.

We can also find examples of extremism there, of course.

Which agreed, are wrong... like stoning your children to death for being disrespectful, but all in all, religions have rules meant for healthy lives, successful families and productive lives.

But interestingly, these sometimes very diverse religions, seem to have one big thing in common.... DENIAL OF THE FLESH. Meaning, ALMOST ALL religions, practice some form of denial of the desires of the flesh. i.e. No sex before marriage, or Monks who may take a vow of silence for a year or more, or Priests who remain celibate throughout their ordinations, or fasting at certain times... no meat on Fridays or for Muslims at Ramadan, no food before sunset that month.

It is not always the rules themselves that have value... God could care less whether we refrain from eating before sunset for a month, or instead we fast for 3 days with water only, or we don't eat meat at certain times of the week, etc...

It is not the FOOD that is the issue.

The deliberate practice of abstaining from things our bodies crave, for certain periods of time, have nothing to do with the food or the sex or the talking, itself. It is all about SELF CONTROL. One of the most obvious things that separates us from animals, is our ability to CONTROL our natural urges, for some greater purpose, whereas animals, do what is instinctual WHENEVER and WHEREVER they are, providing nothing else interferes. The animals will take a dump, and then screw their own sister, right in front of you, and anyone else who cares to watch. To most humans however, this is not civil, healthy or productive behavior.

If your urges were allowed to go unchecked, as they do to varying degrees, in most wildlife, then your own son could be shopping at WalMart just in time to witness you raping the cashier, because you had the urge to sleep with her, so why wait? Animals don't wait. They obey urges. Some have penises after all. And then maybe you decide to just steal the stuff you had in your cart without paying, and maybe you shoot some people and kill them on the way out of the store, because they had something to say about you raping the cashier in front of everyone.

Do you really believe the abandonment of laws or rules of conduct themselves, leads to a positive scenario? Is that "really" what you want your WalMart experience to be? (Don't answer that... I can hear the jokes now. LOL)

But seriously...

Is that the kind of WalMart experience you want for your family? It may be YOUR son who gets shot next, or YOUR sister who was raped in front of everyone.

Clearly rules of conduct, are meant for the BENEFIT of society.

Religious rules are no different.

They are guides, to help us learn how to MANAGE our free will responsibly.

Without these guides, and most are religiously inspired, where would the world really be right now?

It may have remained in a more primitive form, where people lived not unlike animals, and "DID" rape whoever they chose, right in front of everyone else, because the urge happened to hit at that time.

As I have said before...

God has been helping mankind move AWAY from our animal inheritance (our bodies) and to strengthen the spiritual nature He infused us with. As we learn to subjugate physical animal-like desires, and control them, using them responsibly, we learn then, to live as more spiritual beings. As we move away from our physical inheritance, we move more closely to our spiritual destiny, where ALL LAWS become unecessary, because our CONSCIENCE alone, becomes the only law necessary.... we won't do a certain thing now... not because it is illegal, but because it is wrong... because it may hurt someone or cause some grief to others, and our conscience couldn't bear that.

We aren't there as a society, or as a world.... not yet.

But with religion's inspiriation and help, and with modern psychology working along side, and as these lessons are being entrenched into the human psyche, before long, it turns then, into political will and action. And as this is occurring (as it is now) and as we learn to RESIST animalistic urges that are unhealthy when unrestrained, and become more spiritual people, the place where God always designed us to reach to... Then...

Even these conversations will become uneccessary.

It will, one day, be OBVIOUS, why we have to find our better natures, restrain our animal urges, and cooperate as a COMMON SPECIES... for the benefit of our own survival and success as a PEOPLE.

The human race.

History has been bringing us to that day.

And trust me... God, is the guiding hand, helping us to bring it to fruition.

.

#94600 by philbymon
Sun Dec 27, 2009 1:32 pm
Ah, Craig, I'm amazed how little it takes to get you proselytizing. LOL

Dude, take it easy. I ain't out there doing a Tiger...or a cougar...or any other sorta cat thing.

Still, your perfect life choices notwithstanding, I still say that your rules don't apply across the board. My own situation is one that I will not expand upon, for reasons all my own, but suffice it to say that my life has certain other parameters in it, & your path simply won't do for me, no matter how much Jesus may love me.

I do not walk the traditional path in many areas. I do not make excuses for myself, but can recognize when other choices outside the norm should be made. I have no fears for my immortal soul, either.

Not every religion is so absorbed in the denial of the flesh as the j/c one. Yes, it's essential to keep things in moderation, but that is not what the j/c's teach. They teach total abstinence from so many of life's gifts that I think them to be a bit ridiculous & overbearing. That is only one of the myriad reasons I do not join them.

I don't really expect you to understand those things outside the parameters of your own headbone, though. By the same token, you should perhaps open up your mind just a tad when other ways of life come up, cuz your absolutes really don't work for everyone, nor are they necessary or even reasonable, in some cases.

#94607 by CraigMaxim
Sun Dec 27, 2009 3:10 pm
philbymon wrote:

Yes, it's essential to keep things in moderation, but that is not what the j/c's teach. They teach total abstinence from so many of life's gifts that I think them to be a bit ridiculous & overbearing. That is only one of the myriad reasons I do not join them.



It's a little difficult to fit ALL of Christianity into the same mold. There are more than 1000 different denominations of Christianity, and some of them are as you say, totally abstinent, from things like even a glass, hell even a drop, of alcohol. And of course they totally gloss over the fact that Jesus drank alcohol, and many of His disciples too. Gloss over is not the right word, they rearrange history to change this fact, saying Jesus drank non-alcoholic grape juice only, not fermented beverage. That is NOT the testimony of the Bible however, and they just make this up, to force an extreme puritanical lifestyle on others.

And the Bible wants you to enjoy sex. God designed it to feel good, after all. But those pleasures intended for us, are preferred in the context of marriage, or a committed relationship.

In my view, it's all very practical though, and not mystical in nature.

There is no magic spell that gets cast, from who you do, or don't, have sex with. There's no special sin-meter for sexual issues, as opposed to other sins.

Sex is good, healthy and procreational.

But let's switch the issue to "parenting" and try it out...

"I have alot of parental love to give, and that is a natural urge, so I'm gonna parent AS MANY KIDS AS POSSIBLE... even though they belong to other families! - So let me just kidnap my neighbors kids, and I will give them parental love every day, but in some other place in secret, so I don't get caught!"

Why would it be wrong to kidnap someone else's kids to parent them? You've got the love to give. You've got the urge. Your neighbors kids are still getting love from "someone" right? What's the problem?

Well, for one, those kids belong to someone else's family. As such, THEY are connected, and THEY are responsible for providing parental love to their own children. We should be responsible for our own actions, and the success of our own families. Not someone else.

When you have a sexual relationship with someone, there is ALOT going on potentially, than just some feel-good friction going on. Diseases are possible. Emotions play a big role. Some people confuse sex with love itself, and interchange the two, leading to disappointment and heartache. And more importantly than DISEASE being a possible outcome of sex... CHILDREN are a possible outcome of sex.

My point is, that many actual and potential events can result from just one single sexual encounter. And responsible adults should take RESPONSIBILITY for the things their actions cause.

You're having sex with someone?

"You should also be assuming responsibility for any outcome it produces."


And that right there, that last sentence, is a HUGE part of the problem with multiple sexual partners or even multiple wives, as opposed to a committed lifelong relationship between TWO people.

Assuming responsibility for ANY outcome, remember?


Those outcomes can be....


1) Contracting a venereal disease
2) A sexual partner falls in love with you (you're breaking someone's heart)
3) Your wife suddenly gets stalked (your sexual admirer it turns out, is psycho)
4) You bring unexpected and likely UNWANTED children into the world
5) Your most recent sexual partner has a psycho ex-boyfriend of her own, and he threatens you and maybe your family's lives because you slept with HIS woman.

I mean, not only could this list go on, but we could expand every single issue above into all sorts of varied possibilities and their resultant complications. And because it is SEXUAL in nature, many of these "complications" can be PERMANENT!

So that in the case of venereal diseases... Some are incurable. Does your wife stay with you anyway, even with your new incurable disease? And if she does, is that fair to her? The inconveniences she now lives with? The potential for contracting it herself, when PREVIOUSLY she had the luxury of belieiving this would never be an issue, since she thought you were both monogamous. You now impact HER LIFE potentially forever, if she stays with you, and yet she didn't ask for or consent, to such a fate. What you thought of as your own private business, suddenly becomes HER BUSINESS and impacts her life forever in a bad way.

What about children? Your partner maybe has the kid and suddenly you are paying child support to someone OUTSIDE the family you live with. Now your wife has to live with the change in income for the family, until this "bastard" child becomes an adult at 18?

There are SO MANY major problems possible with affairs and secretive sexual encounters, even with prostitutes you may never see again, that it begs the question... Is it really worth the risk? When you ALREADY HAVE someone you can SAFELY have sex with, every day of your life? I understand the desire for diversity, but seriously, we are talking sexual relationships and marriage here, not food. If you had an old car you prized, chances are you could own that vehicle for the rest of your life, and be perfectly content with it, and never get "bored" with it. On the contrary, you may dote over it on a daily basis, and add little accessories to it as you can afford them, all the while bragging to your friends how lucky you are!

Maybe if we treated women, with as much loyalty and interest as some guys do, a classic automobile, these guys would not be in a "boring" or "lifeless" or "thankless" marriage? Maybe the woman who is TREATED like a queen, actually lives up to the attention and loyalty and BECOMES a queen for you?

But again...

We have to assume responsibility, one way or another, for the results of our own actions.

It is kind of crazy, to assume that level of responsibility, for STRANGERS, when in all liklihood, we haven't even mastered taking responsibility for OUR OWN RELATIONSHIPS with our wives yet.

A life already burdened with hardships, can hardly stand the added burdens of living with the bad results of sex with the wrong person.

That kind of irresponsibility eventually ensures the failure of ANYTHING it is applied to. Would you be so haphazzard with money? If not, then you value paper over people. But if you ARE that irresponsible with money, it is unlikely you have much of it.

You see where I am coming from?

This is an issue, to me, not about "sin" or religious superstition or protocol. No. For me, this is a simple issue, of being a man, and taking RESPONSIBILITY for one's life choices.

If someone were to spread their money around to strangers as quickly as they share a penis with one, that poor dumb f*ck would be "perpetually broke". Why live that way though? Perpetually broke... when another path is possible?

And why be in a "perpetually broke" marriage, when another path is possible?

.

#94617 by philbymon
Sun Dec 27, 2009 4:46 pm
Oh my you can go on, can't you?

Tiger Woods could not have hidden the fact the he was married, so his "using" those women for his own ends is as a ridiculous an assumption as saying that JFK did. Come ON, Craig! It takes two (or more) to tango. Those poor used women knew that what they were doing was not considered the correct thing, in our society, so I feel zero compassion for them. They had thier own agendas at work in all of this.

I don't get your comparisons, once again. No one has been kidnapped, dude. Don't go off the deep end on me. Do try to stay on the right page.

I do see where you are coming from. I also will continue to say that your way does not apply to every case out here in the real. If you can't see that, I can't teach it to you, because you are, & will continue to be, an absolutist. I'm glad it's working for you.

Treating the spouse like royalty is a two-way street, btw, but it's become very popular to bash the menfolk in our society for simply being men. Too much of that will result in less than optimal results, ladies, no matter how fun or harmless it may seem.

I will continue to be a man. I will continue to do what I believe is right & good for myself, my family, & the world at large. That doesn't necessarilly mean that I will do everything YOUR way, however, Craig. Nor does it mean that I will follow the traditional j/c way, which I believe is often counterproductive to one's health & overall happiness. And I will never allow anyone to force thier views of perfect human or societal evolution upon me, either.

#94643 by CraigMaxim
Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:18 pm
I'm a pretty open minded person Phil.

Sometimes when I am making a point, I am speaking from the "Ideal" as opposed to the norm, or whatever.

What I am trying to say, is that, not having sex before marriage and then being faithful INSIDE that marriage, is a more ideal way of life, where the marriage is concerned. It excludes almost 100% the possibility of passing on sexually transmitted diseases to others. When a couple has no experience sexually, with anyone else but one another, that can be a powerful shared bonding experience, it also helps eliminate comparisons... "I really love this girl, but my last girlfriend was better in bed!" - In the IDEAL case, there would be no comparison possible like that, and it opens the door for the couple to grow SEXUALLY together, as they do in other aspects of their marriage.

However...

I did tell you that I didn't care how many single people f*cked each other and everyone else, till their privates fell off.

My biggest problem is the UNECESSARY committment of fidelity in marriage, when someone is not planning on keeping it.

Why get married?

Stay f*cking single!

Is that an illogical statement somehow? Or overtly religious?

If you promised to stay inside one particular vagina, STAY THERE.

Keep your word, or end your marriage and let her find someome WHO WILL keep their word to her.

It is totally selfish to do anything else. You (speaking generically) are just using someone then. They aren't getting their needs met (believing in their husband's faithfulness) but as long as they serve your (anyone's) purpose, then it is somehow accptable to USE them for what you get out of the arrangement, while lying to their face, cheating behind their back, and making a fool of their partner AND their marriage?

That's just selfishness.

It is not excusable.


All sin, is pretty much an expression of SELFISHNESS.

It's why the world is not better than it is.

We are too selfish.

.

#94644 by CraigMaxim
Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:21 pm
philbymon wrote:
Tiger Woods could not have hidden the fact the he was married, so his "using" those women for his own ends is as a ridiculous an assumption as saying that JFK did.



????????


We crossed lines somehow.

I only labelled Tiger's wife and kids as "victims" no one else.

I never claimed that his whores were anything other than whores.

If I did, I mistyped.

.

#94662 by ANGELSSHOTGUN
Sun Dec 27, 2009 10:52 pm
Craig, I do not have a clue as to how you can type so much so fast :)
Most of the folks here don't understand the complicated simplicities of what you are trying to write.
Keep up the good work, I love it.

#94664 by CraigMaxim
Sun Dec 27, 2009 11:10 pm
GLENJ wrote:Craig, I do not have a clue as to how you can type so much so fast :)
Most of the folks here don't understand the complicated simplicities of what you are trying to write.
Keep up the good work, I love it.



Thanks Glen... I think...

"Complicated simplicities, huh?"

LOL

Maybe that's appropriate, cause darn it, somehow people are determined to find a way to complicate, what to me, appears pretty simple.

Thanks again brother.

I know I run my mouth exceedingly long, repeat many of the same points, etc...

But I like learning from others. And I hope others have the ability to learn something from me as well. So, whether my original target is getting the point or not, or maybe they get the point, but don't buy it... My hope is that SOMEONE, even if it is someone just reading the thread, may have their own questions answered, or hopefully I at least gave them food for thought.

That's the hope anyway. :)

.

#94700 by ANGELSSHOTGUN
Mon Dec 28, 2009 12:48 pm
Craig, Please continue to speak boldly. Period.
If it is with your guitar, or your words, I appreciate it. Period.

#94726 by ColorsFade
Mon Dec 28, 2009 3:52 pm
CraigMaxim wrote:Phil,

You have free will. Everyone does.



That's your "belief". But not a fact... There are quite a few people who believe Free Will does not exist. You're behavior is the product of your brain programming...

Just interjecting...

#94769 by ANGELSSHOTGUN
Mon Dec 28, 2009 11:13 pm
Colors, You play and write so good, that sure doesn't come from being a sheep. IF I am wrong, than I guess I am standing on the wrong line.
I must be cause this line is not that long. :)

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