General Music Chat

Now I have you with me, under my power
Our love grows stronger now with every hour
Look into my eyes, you will see who I am
My name is Lucifer, please take my hand

LOL

This just seemed like the perfect time for Black Sabbath lyrics huh?



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LOL . . . just being imbecilic! (is that word?)

Craig, may I ask you what belief system you follow? You seem to have more than a clue with occult themes.

God doesn't change and neither does his will.

Don't confuse God's character not changing, with God Himself not being able to change, or alter things about Himself.

You misquote Bible verses all the time.

God "DOES" change and so does His will. The Bible has examples of MAN HIMSELF affecting God, and bringing about a change in God's will, like when God instructed Moses to go to Pharaoh, and tell him to let the Israelites go. Moses argued with God that he wasn't a good speaker, and that the Israelites didn't listen to Moses, why would Pharaoh listen to me? God then instructed Moses to bring Aaron with him, and that Aaron would tell Pharaoh to let the people go. God's original will called for MOSES ALONE to go to Pharaoh. Moses complained, and God ALTERED his will, to accomodate Moses' lack of confidence.

You remind me of my alcoholic grandfather, though, who loved to quote Bible verses to everyone, while simultaneously missing what half of them were actually saying. But boy, he thought he impressed everyone with his ability to rattle off verses for any situation.

But, the Bible has to be understood in CONTEXT as well as in HISTORICAL CONTEXT, with allowances made for HUMAN INVOLVEMENT, and consequently, containing errors.

For example, the Sun does not "rise" on one side of the planet, and then "set" on the other side of it. God, having CREATED the cosmos, knows this. But those verses were written from a human's perspective... A human perspective that preceded the benefit of scientific knowledge... so the Bible describes what the man who wrote those verses witnessed.

God would NEVER have stated that the Earth doesn't move, knowing full well that, not only does the Earth itself move, but everything on the Earth moves as well, think plate techtonics.... and yet, the Bible states quite clearly that the "Earth" does not move. This is stated because it was ancient man's belief that the Earth DID NOT MOVE, but the Sun did. And the sun rose on one side of the flat earth, and set on the other side of the flat Earth.

This is a CLEAR ERROR (among many) found in the Bible, and yet, rather than this crushing my faith in God, or His inspirations to man as revealed in the Bible, instead, I simply accept everything AS IT IS IN TRUTH. Ancient man was completely unaware that the Earth rotated on it's own axis, as well as simultaneously rotating around the Sun.

You on the other hand find it necessary to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

The Bible however, like God's history with humanity itself, has been a PROCESS. The Bible spans thousands of years of time, and as mankind progressed to higher forms of consciousness, God has, over time, revealed more and more of Himself to us.

God doesn't change right?

Well you can bet your ass, that the God of love you know from the New Testament is not the God that men thought they knew from the Old Testament. God's love NEVER changes, so what changed? Man's understanding of God and man's relationship to God. God would NEVER inspire parents to stone their children merely for backtalking, yet the Bible claims this, and even COMMANDS it.

God didn't change.

God's love was ALWAYS available for mankind to receive and share with others.

But mankind was primitive emotionally and spiritually, and not ready for what God wanted them to have, even back then.

Mankind was not ready for a God of love, or God as a "father", back then.

God's providence however, has been deliberately and patiently, pushing through man's animal tendencies over thousands of years, until society and humanity WAS READY for a message such as was brought by Jesus.

When mankind was ready, the higher revelation came, to the point that "The Golden Rule" (found in MOST religions, cause this teaching comes from God) is quite commonly accepted throughout the world.

When mankind embraced the higher understanding, societies began to elevate into a new age.

When you are ready to embrace a higher understanding, you too will be elevated.

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You misquote Bible verses all the time. .

As expected. No examples. All I do is quote. Kind of hard to misquote when all I do is quote.

God "DOES" change and so does His will. The Bible has examples of MAN HIMSELF affecting God, and bringing about a change in God's will, like when God instructed Moses to go to Pharaoh, and tell him to let the Israelites go. Moses argued with God that he wasn't a good speaker, and that the Israelites didn't listen to Moses, why would Pharaoh listen to me? God then instructed Moses to bring Aaron with him, and that Aaron would tell Pharaoh to let the people go. God's original will called for MOSES ALONE to go to Pharaoh. Moses complained, and God ALTERED his will, to accomodate Moses' lack of confidence.

Old testament. Doesn't happen today. "That which is perfect" came. The new testament. Unchanging.

You remind me of my alcoholic grandfather, though, who loved to quote Bible verses to everyone, while simultaneously missing what half of them were actually saying. But boy, he thought he impressed everyone with his ability to rattle off verses for any situation.

Isn't that nice of you to ignore what the verses say while simultaneously accusing me of trying to impress. Craig I'm trying to get you to accept the truth found in God's word.

But, the Bible has to be understood in CONTEXT as well as in HISTORICAL CONTEXT,

Sure does. Are you implying I didn't consider context? There you are again with no examples.

and yet, the Bible states quite clearly that the "Earth" does not move.

Again, you HAVE to back it up with scripture Craig. Where is it?

You on the other hand find it necessary to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

What?? What?? How?

The Bible however, like God's history with humanity itself, has been a PROCESS. The Bible spans thousands of years of time, and as mankind progressed to higher forms of consciousness, God has, over time, revealed more and more of Himself to us.

Wrong. It WAS a process. It is now complete.

When you are ready to embrace a higher understanding, you too will be elevated.

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Hippy new agey wannabe crap Craig. Try having faith.

I like a lot of you people here. I think you all know that too?
What I don't like is the constant barracking about who is right on what principle, word, doctrine etc.

Everyone has a thought process on something or other, that's a human right and you cannot............. no matter what you say or do........... take that away.

There are just so many judges these days. WHOOOOOPIE We are all safe once more...

Doubt it.

I like Craig. He's done nothing to harm me or my family. Paul hasn't either. In fact no one has here to my knowledge? In fact I knocked Craig some time back and have apologised for that too.

I would with anyone if I felt the need, no guilt. A multi coloured multi cultural, multi belief, multi thought world it is. I rather like it that way too, its fantastic and interesting!

Just my two cents of course. I haven't got many, but I think these two are well spent.
Keep well all.

Writing?

LOL . . . just being imbecilic! (is that word?)

LOL... A little injected humorous diversion is probably a good thing, in conversations such as these, where things easily get too heated.

Craig, may I ask you what belief system you follow? You seem to have more than a clue with occult themes.

I definitely have "more than a clue" on many religions and philosophies, but you are far more researched on occultic history and it's varied branches than I am. I would be out of my league if I got into an in-depth discussion on SPECIFIC disciplines of the occult, and their terminologies.

I have a well rounded knowledge of many things, but particularly religion, philosophy, history and maybe science. And this would be, because very sincerely, all my life, I have been a seeker. Since my earliest memories, and my family backs this up, I am famous in my family for two specific things especially:

1) Honesty
2) Why?

That second one, means questioning. I have always had an insatiable desire to KNOW why things are the way they are... to know what truth is.... To discover the underlying principles of life, creation, why people do what they do, what the meaning and purpose of life is, if any.

My family says I was never satisfied with a simple answer, or a non answer.

I wasn't rude they said, like being a smartass, I just sincerely needed to know why things, were the way they are.

Shakespeare's line from Hamlet, may as well have been marching orders to me, from God Himself...

"To thine own self be true."

Without first being true to yourself and your own heart, and what your real motivations are, etc... Without first being true to YOURSELF, it is nearly impossible to find deeper truths in this life.

I seek truth, whenever and wherever I can find it, and I have no egotistical personal bias about what that truth will be, or "should" be.

I want the unvanished truth.

The most liberating prayer I ever prayed was...

"God, I need to know the truth... I don't even care what the truth is anymore, I just need to know WHAT IT IS, and if it comes from you, I will follow it, even if I am the only person in the world doing so, and the whole world mocks me for it."

I was tired of being misled by people.

So many viewpoints, religious or philosophical, can be presented so "intelligently" that of course you would have to buy into it... until... a competing viewpoint actually seemed MORE logical. When they contradict, they can't really both be true.

I had a high IQ, I read alot of books... I talked to alot of people... I needed more than that. I needed God to tell me.

In tears, that literally began soaking my shirt, I was so confused about a certain issue, that it was driving me crazy. I wanted to follow the truth so badly, it hurt... the problem was, I didn't know what the truth was. I was confused. I had maxed out my research and conversations with experts. I needed a supernatural experience... something beyond my ability to question it and take it apart.

In tears I prayed for such an answer, and God gave it to me.

Before that time, because I was young perhaps, I far too often bought into an intelligent or interesting philosophy, merely on it's own merit, using itself as it's own judge, without exercising "critical thought" more often, without challenging the positions being presented, without comparing it wth other religious views, philosophies or scientific evidence, to be sure they were true.

This is partially what allowed me to get sucked into a cult in my early 20's, where I thought I was doing God's will, and serving mankind. And after being liberated from it, and later becoming a famous critic of the group, I learned to employ critical thought on a far more consistent basis.

In any event...

I do believe in a Creator God, who is the origin of love and goodness. Yet this also means that wherever love and goodness are found, so too must God be there. In other words, if a religion teaches something good, or is practicing love, this is an inspiration of God. God wants to inspire and improve people's hearts. This is more imprtant to Him than what "package" it is delivered in.

God is bigger than all the world's religions combined, so any SINGLE one of them, cannot possibly claim, in honesty, to CONTAIN God. God inspires people, and the PEOPLE develop the religions.

God's love and truth can be found in MANY religions.

Sadly though, when people begin to love the RELIGION that they created "to enshrine the truths", more than they love the truths themselves, then chaos and mistruths slip in, and the honesty and goodness of the original inspiration often gets lost.

That's always the challenge. Keeping the original inspiration PURE, and not decorating it with man-made foo-foo.

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The Bible however, like God's history with humanity itself, has been a PROCESS. The Bible spans thousands of years of time, and as mankind progressed to higher forms of consciousness, God has, over time, revealed more and more of Himself to us.

Wrong. It WAS a process. It is now complete.

What's complete?

This will be good...

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A multi coloured multi cultural, multi belief, multi thought world it is. I rather like it that way too, its fantastic and interesting!

Just my two cents of course. I haven't got many, but I think these two are well spent.

I think they were too Chippy!

I quite agree. Diversity in people and cultures, is like diversity in flora and fauna. Engaging. It serves various purposes. It is exciting to behold, like the diversity of flowers. It would be a boring world if all flowers were the same, and likewise, if all people were the same.

Luckily God doesn't seem to believe in "one size fits all"!

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The Bible however, like God's history with humanity itself, has been a PROCESS. The Bible spans thousands of years of time, and as mankind progressed to higher forms of consciousness, God has, over time, revealed more and more of Himself to us.

Wrong. It WAS a process. It is now complete.

What's complete?

This will be good...

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Yes the word of God is good.

1 cor 13:10 But when what is complete comes, then what is incomplete will be done away with.

Yes the word of God is good.

1 cor 13:10 But when what is complete comes, then what is incomplete will be done away with.

No. no.

You said the PROCESS was complete. What process? What's complete now? What needs no further revealing or understanding?

What changed?

Do you have all knowledge?

Explain yourself.

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rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

No adding to or taking away from the bible. It is complete.

The process of writing the bible has been completed.

We all have all the knowledge we need to be forgiven of our sins and obtain heaven.

rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book,

(snip)

No adding to or taking away from the bible. It is complete.

To be technical... Not the Bible.

"THIS" book of prophecy.

THAT book of prophecy was the Book of Revelations. Remember that the Bible contains 66 "books", and the Apostle John was clearly referring to the BOOK OF PROPHECY that he had just written. Not the entire Bible itself.

In any event, I have not ADDED or TAKEN AWAY from the Book of Revelation, or the Bible either. I don't produce and print Bibles, so I have NEVER written my own Bible, using my own words, or altered any of their verses and pretended that my new version was original.

The process of writing the bible has been completed.

The cannonization proccess too... And?

We all have all the knowledge we need to be forgiven of our sins and obtain heaven.

That's a little like saying "I know how to eat food and drink to stay alive, and that is all I will ever need to know about life."

Is that what you believe about "life"?

If not, then why do you believe something similar about "God"? You are more interested in investigating life, than invesigating the Creator of life?

The more knowledge you have of someone, the deeper the relationship.

In suggesting indirectly, that you don't need to know anything about God other than that he gave you eternal life, that would be like saying... "I don't need to know anything about my mother, other than that she gave birth to me."

See how that fails?

Yet that is the relationship you paint of yourself and God.

If I didn't care to learn much more about my mother than the fact that she gave birth to me, does that sound like a solid relationship? A deep relationship? Or does it appear that I really have little interest in my mother at all?

I don't think you can love someone, without being interested in them, and wanting to know as much as possible about them.


Chances are no one knows more about you than your wife and family. When you love people, you become a part of their lives... you can't help but learn alot about them, and want to learn even more. You have such a relationship with your wife and kids I bet.

Why not God?



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We all have all the knowledge we need to be forgiven of our sins and obtain heaven.

That's a little like saying "I know how to eat food and drink to stay alive, and that is all I will ever need to know about life."

Is that what you believe about "life"?

No Craig, just no. The bible contains instructions on how to live, thrive, please God, obtain heaven, be happy in this life.

You are more interested in investigating life, than invesigating the Creator of life?

No just no. I am interested in the creator. That is why I study.

In suggesting indirectly, that you don't need to know anything about God other than that he gave you eternal life, that would be like saying... "I don't need to know anything about my mother, other than that she gave birth to me."

That's you inventing stuff.

I don't think you can love someone, without being interested in them, and wanting to know as much as possible about them.

Well it's a good thing he gave us his inspired word so we can learn about him and how to please him and ultimately be with him. Then we will know him.

Chances are no one knows more about you than your wife and family. When you love people, you become a part of their lives... you can't help but learn alot about them, and want to learn even more. You have such a relationship with your wife and kids I bet.

Why not God?
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Why would you even say that? His word is how we learn about him. Obviously I want to learn about him. That is why I am familiar with so much scripture.

Why would you even say that? His word is how we learn about him.

Yes, you can learn about someone to some extent by reading a BOOK.

True.

But I read books to learn about FAMOUS people that I DO NOT KNOW, or people who are DEAD and maybe a book is the main way you could learn something about them.

We're talking about your FATHER here though.

Is He dead? Is He a famous person you do not know?

You aren't gonna get this Paul. I'm wasting my time, unless someone else is learning something from this.

I tried to point this out before, and asked you a question, which I think you ignored, if I remember correctly (which you do on all the things you can't handle).

But the gist was...

Would you be satisfied having a relationship with ANYONE ELSE you love, by READING ABOUT THEM? Or would you prefer to have them in person? Would you be satisfied having a relationship with your wife, mostly by READING about her?

You wouldn't.

And yet, you are content with this type of "relationship" with your own Father?

You don't get how you speak of God more like someone who is UNKNOWABLE or someone who is DEAD, and LIVED IN ANOTHER TIME, so you have to read about them, since you can't know them for real... in person... in a REAL relationship.

Reading "ABOUT" someone, may teach you some things about them, that you didn't know, but it will NEVER... NOT EVER... be the basis of a RELATIONSHIP with ANYONE.

Relationships are about "RELATING" to others.

Not READING about them.

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All the info available to us is from reading. I NEVER avoid tough ones. You don't have any. God does not speak to us directly. If you say he does to you you are lying or crazy.