General Music Chat

Thanks for biting. the bible never says more than that there were wise men. There were 3 gifts - gold, frankincense, and myrrh and people have commonly said there were 3 wise men.

There are several common misconceptions about the bible.

Eve ate of the apple and gave it to Adam.... not there - it was "a fruit"

....and we all know that an apple is a pome!

(I still have some frankincense locked up in that Norway spruce that I milled to side my workshop , however, its a different variety then that which those presumed wise guys gave to the birthday boy)

Now let's get ready for NEW YEARS! (Who all got gigs?)
Howlin'

The wise men were what would now be called astrologers. They were following the star. King Herod upon learning this, wanted the maji to bring Jesus to him once they found him. King Herrod's goal was to put the baby to death. Jesus birth had been predicted many years beforehand and was expected by many, especially rulers.

The star was probably luminated by Satan who also wanted Jesus dead. Satan's way of saying "he's here". This was not a pleasant time for the baby or his family. When the astrologers saw the baby they "forgot" that it was their mission to return the child to the king and eventually moved on without Jesus. Soon the king placed an order to kill all boys 2 years old in hopes that they kill the Son of God. So chances are Jesus was not an infant in a cradle but most likely an older child. Something else, Jesus was most likely born in October.

Any takers?

Yah.
Born in october? That is absurd.
If anything he was born under the sign of the fishes.

the bible never says more than that there were wise men.

"Wise men" is a King James misinterpretation. The correct term would be "Magi" which is where the term "Magic" is derived. They belonged to a priestly religion which relied heavily upon astrology. The Magi were famous throughout the world for this knowledge.

As a side note, it is rather interesting that the Bible clearly uses this story as a partial evidence of the importance of Christ's birth... "So important that Magi from the East came to worship Him" and yet, that religion would be considered occultic and likely against a strict interpretation of the Bible. This is almost like saying something along the lines of... "The Devil is a pathological liar, you cannot believe a word he says!!!"... and then moments later, displaying a statement by the Devil, where he acknowledges Christ's divinity... "Look, even the Devil believes in Jesus, see? It says so right here." as proof that Christ is divine.

Kind of a mixed message, to say the least.

There were 3 gifts - gold, frankincense, and myrrh and people have commonly said there were 3 wise men.

Correct. It is a basic Christian "tradition" that there were 3 Magi, which is derived from the idea that each would have carried one, of the three gifts. They are sometimes known as "Three Kings" too, based on Old Testament prophecies of Kings worshipping Jesus in the future, although Matthew, the only Gospel mentioning this story never suggests they were actual kings. However, the widely held view of them as kings, changed after the Protestant Reformation.

There are several common misconceptions about the bible.

That's an understatement.

But, sadly there are also many misconceptions about the Bible held by Bible believing Christians themselves, who have accepted the passed down INTERPRETATIONS provided by early church fathers as TRUTH, when often, these interpretations are just that... interpretations. And some of them horribly misguided.

Cleanliness is next to Godliness..... not found in the bible.

Yes. I've known people that assumed this was an actual bible verse.

We are to celebrate the birth of Christ.... not there either.

LOL

Sounds like you threw this one in, just to expound on your personal religious views? I don't know any people who think there is a literal COMMANDMENT to celebrate Christmas?

But in any event, why stop at Christmas? Easter (the most important Christian "holiday") like Christmas, was derived from pagan traditions. We aren't told to celebrate Easter either.

But, maybe we shouldn't be singing hymns either, since the disciples did not write them for us? Funny that God would allow us that freedom and creativity, where hymns are concerned, and yet creating days of observances or holidays, based on Christian theology and history, are somehow off limits?

The early church met in secret in people's houses. Why aren't we still following that clear tradition and example?

Careful brother.

It is easy to get completely lost, when pursuing a path of legalism.

Eve ate of the apple and gave it to Adam.... not there - it was "a fruit"

But why would this matter to you though?

You likely believe this verse is literal rather than metaphorical don't you?

I mean, you believe that the Bible is detailing a literal piece of fruit right? That grows on actually trees, and can be eaten, just like normal fruit, only with the addition of being a "magical" and "dangerous" bit of agriculture, that not only has the power to kill you (after your normal lifespan - LOL) and provide you with a "sin nature" that will now, not only infect the rebellious Adam and Eve, who clearly disobeyed God, but this fruit also has the potent ability to go ahead and curse EVERY SUCCESSIVE GENERATION OF HUMAN BEINGS to come down the pike for thousands of years now since Adam and Eve's dietary infraction, People who never even had the chance to obey God's special "don't eat the fruit" command, even if they wanted to obey it, since they are now BORN with the HEREDITARY special "God-fruit" curse.

Why does it really matter to you whether it is thought of as an apple by some?

Sadly, God didn't give us the name of this rare "murderous-sin-nature-fruit" or it would have saved the need for people feeling as if they should name the damn thing.

We could blame church artists, who depicted biblical events like this, and often painted this yummyful and tempting "generational-death-fruit" an enticing "RED" color, and hence, appeared to be an apple, or we could blame John Milton's epic poem "Paradise Lost", for the infraction, which literally calls it an apple, but hey... whoever is to blame... is it really consequential?

It is a small error, in comparison with the one which holds that...


God is so damned inflexible, in His commanding people to follow His rules, that He created a tree with a death-fruit, that has the power not only to kill you and condemn you to living with a sin-nature, but you will then pass on this penalty of death, and of the inherited sin-nature, to EVERY LIVING SOUL THAT WILL EVER BE BORN ON PLANET EARTH for untold THOUSANDS OF YEARS!!!

That is a hell of a punishment my friend. Imagine... The first humans, with no previous experience of sin, are left to fend for themselves at the hands of the
Devil... the originator of sin, with only a simple instruction to follow, while God is apparently hiding somewhere else, yet WATCHING... to see what his first children will do.... will they pass this test or not?

Following God's instructions perfectly is Sooooooo important to God, that he will condemn HUNDREDS OF GENERATIONS (and that's just to-date) of future unborn children to DEATH and to being born with a hereditary disease popularly known as a "sin nature" as a penalty for this SINGLE infraction!

But God loves us, and so...

After hundreds of years of such penalty had already passed and all the human suffering that went with it.... God sent Jesus, FINALLY... to forgive us for ALL our sins, not just that first one, but forgive us, just like that, for ALL SINS we commit or even WILL COMMIT in the future, and he will do this by our faith alone! Not even by obedience like poor Adam and Eve had to follow.

So we have gone somehow, in God's providence, from a SINGLE mistake causing 500 generations of death and hereditary diseases, as a penalty for not following one single rule of God's, to the point where we could theoretically follow NO RULES at all now, and even be forgiven in advance, for sins we will commit in the future, as long as we have faith.

Wow!

God's so interesting... how he really creamed us, for hundreds of generations, all because of one juvenile mistake... and a dietary one at that! Nobody shot anyone, or molested a child... they just ate that tempting-looking fruit off that fruit tree in the garden, and WHAM! That was all she wrote. That trickster God, boy... making a fruit tree so tempting, and then putting it right smack in the middle of a garden, filled with "less deadly fruit" while promising to his children, ALL THE FRUIT IN THE GARDEN... well, except that really yummy looking one in the middle! And all just to test the integrity of the universe's very first humans.... God's brand new children, fresh from being created! Hardly had time to clear their throat, let alone have experience of the dangers of sin, or of crafty creatures like Satan. How will they ever learn without making an error or two? But never mind... rules are rules, and one mistake.... KAPOWIE!!!! 500 generations of your descendants will pay for ADAM AND EVE'S one sin!

Well, until God got around to sending Jesus to renegotiate the penalties and get-out-jail-free cards.

Now though... new motto for God... "No mistake is too big to make now!"

Or maybe... "Rulez-Schmoolz! The new FORGIVING GOD is here to stay!!!"

Traditional Christianity's outdated and mythological portrayal of God is, to say the very least... unfortunate. God is either an OGRE or a MORON or... BOTH!

I mean, this is a God who, in an act of love, creates BILLIONS OF GALAXIES into what becomes our "cosmos" as a place for his children to dwell. How much work, thought and heart went into just the preparations for our living arrangements alone? And yet, traveling through that vast expanse of billions of galaxies, we come to one relatively small planet... Earth. And peering down through it's atmosphere, we get closer and closer to ground level, until we are spiraling down, toward ONE TINY SPOT of real estate in the Middle East, where our Creator and our Father, has placed a beautiful garden for his children's sustainance and enjoyment.

But in the center of this small garden, our father has deceptively created a tree so tempting that it was virtually irresistable, and yet fruit from that tree will kill us, and all our own children as well, for thousands upon thousands of years afterward.

And when God's children do end up taking that irresistable bait that He placed in front of their faces to tempt them with, not only do Adam and Eve get punished with a delayed death sentence, and in the process, sentence all future generations to death and sin-disease, but God even kicks them out of the garden, and blocks the way back into the garden with angels and a flaming sword that are impenetrable!

Don't strike me down for these suggestions, but hey God...

1) Why didn't you just put the impenetrable angels and flaming sword, around the damn tree we weren't supposed to eat, and we could have avoided all this sh*t!!! You know?

2) Even better... Why make an irresistable death-fruit tree to begin with? Are you perverse? Honestly Lord, I don't know many parents on Earth, who would poison a single cookie, and place it in the cookie jar with all the "safe" cookies, just to test our resolve to... "Don't take a cookie from that jar, without my permission, or else!"

You parents can certainly speak up here? Unlike myself, maybe you are the more god-like kind of parent, who WOULD poison a cookie, and place it in the cookie jar, to test your children, at the penalty death?


--

There are several common misconceptions about the bible.

That's an understatement.

But, sadly there are also many misconceptions about the Bible held by Bible believing Christians themselves

That's what I meant. That was the point of the thread. To suggest we all actually study what The bible says about how God wants to be worshiped.

We are to celebrate the birth of Christ.... not there either.

LOL

Sounds like you threw this one in, just to expound on your personal religious views? I don't know any people who think there is a literal COMMANDMENT to celebrate Christmas?

I threw it in there to make us think about scriptural worship as opposed to how we think God wants to be worshiped. If my personal religious views are what I can read in the bible then yes it is my personal religious views.

But in any event, why stop at Christmas? Easter (the most important Christian "holiday") like Christmas, was derived from pagan traditions. We aren't told to celebrate Easter either.

I don't stop at Christmas. I also don't celebrate easter as a religious holiday. I also encourage people at that time of year to look to their bible for instructions on how to worship God the way God sees fit.

But, maybe we shouldn't be singing hymns either, since the disciples did not write them for us?

Yes we should. we can read it here.

Speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord (Ephesians 5:19).

Funny that God would allow us that freedom and creativity, where hymns are concerned, and yet creating days of observances or holidays, based on Christian theology and history, are somehow off limits?

I guess it's funny to you. But it's just black and white to me.

The early church met in secret in people's houses. Why aren't we still following that clear tradition and example?

Because nobody is going to kill us for assembling to worship. They met in buildings and so do we.

Eve ate of the apple and gave it to Adam.... not there - it was "a fruit"

But why would this matter to you though?

It matters to me as it is the perfect opportunity to make the light go on in peoples heads. You mean it wasn't an apple? I wonder what else I can find.... through study.

God is so damned inflexible, in His commanding people to follow His rules, that He created a tree with a death-fruit, that has the power not only to kill you and condemn you to living with a sin-nature, but you will then pass on this penalty of death, and of the inherited sin-nature, to EVERY LIVING SOUL THAT WILL EVER BE BORN ON PLANET EARTH for untold THOUSANDS OF YEARS!!!

That is a hell of a punishment my friend. Imagine... The first humans, with no previous experience of sin, are left to fend for themselves at the hands of the
Devil... the originator of sin, with only a simple instruction to follow, while God is apparently hiding somewhere else, yet WATCHING... to see what his first children will do.... will they pass this test or not?

Following God's instructions perfectly is Sooooooo important to God, that he will condemn HUNDREDS OF GENERATIONS (and that's just to-date) of future unborn children to DEATH and to being born with a hereditary disease popularly known as a "sin nature" as a penalty for this SINGLE infraction!

But God loves us, and so...

After hundreds of years of such penalty had already passed and all the human suffering that went with it.... God sent Jesus, FINALLY... to forgive us for ALL our sins, not just that first one, but forgive us, just like that, for ALL SINS we commit or even WILL COMMIT in the future, and he will do this by our faith alone! Not even by obedience like poor Adam and Eve had to follow.

So we have gone somehow, in God's providence, from a SINGLE mistake causing 500 generations of death and hereditary diseases, as a penalty for not following one single rule of God's, to the point where we could theoretically follow NO RULES at all now, and even be forgiven in advance, for sins we will commit in the future, as long as we have faith.

Wow!

God's so interesting... how he really creamed us, for hundreds of generations, all because of one juvenile mistake... and a dietary one at that! Nobody shot anyone, or molested a child... they just ate that tempting-looking fruit off that fruit tree in the garden, and WHAM! That was all she wrote. That trickster God, boy... making a fruit tree so tempting, and then putting it right smack in the middle of a garden, filled with "less deadly fruit" while promising to his children, ALL THE FRUIT IN THE GARDEN... well, except that really yummy looking one in the middle! And all just to test the integrity of the universe's very first humans.... God's brand new children, fresh from being created! Hardly had time to clear their throat, let alone have experience of the dangers of sin, or of crafty creatures like Satan. How will they ever learn without making an error or two? But never mind... rules are rules, and one mistake.... KAPOWIE!!!! 500 generations of your descendants will pay for ADAM AND EVE'S one sin!

Well, until God got around to sending Jesus to renegotiate the penalties and get-out-jail-free cards.

Now though... new motto for God... "No mistake is too big to make now!"

Or maybe... "Rulez-Schmoolz! The new FORGIVING GOD is here to stay!!!"

Traditional Christianity's outdated and mythological portrayal of God is, to say the very least... unfortunate. God is either an OGRE or a MORON or... BOTH!

I mean, this is a God who, in an act of love, creates BILLIONS OF GALAXIES into what becomes our "cosmos" as a place for his children to dwell. How much work, thought and heart went into just the preparations for our living arrangements alone? And yet, traveling through that vast expanse of billions of galaxies, we come to one relatively small planet... Earth. And peering down through it's atmosphere, we get closer and closer to ground level, until we are spiraling down, toward ONE TINY SPOT of real estate in the Middle East, where our Creator and our Father, has placed a beautiful garden for his children's sustainance and enjoyment.

But in the center of this small garden, our father has deceptively created a tree so tempting that it was virtually irresistable, and yet fruit from that tree will kill us, and all our own children as well, for thousands upon thousands of years afterward.

And when God's children do end up taking that irresistable bait that He placed in front of their faces to tempt them with, not only do Adam and Eve get punished with a delayed death sentence, and in the process, sentence all future generations to death and sin-disease, but God even kicks them out of the garden, and blocks the way back into the garden with angels and a flaming sword that are impenetrable!

Don't strike me down for these suggestions, but hey God...

1) Why didn't you just put the impenetrable angels and flaming sword, around the damn tree we weren't supposed to eat, and we could have avoided all this sh*t!!! You know?

2) Even better... Why make an irresistable death-fruit tree to begin with? Are you perverse? Honestly Lord, I don't know many parents on Earth, who would poison a single cookie, and place it in the cookie jar with all the "safe" cookies, just to test our resolve to... "Don't take a cookie from that jar, without my permission, or else!"

You parents can certainly speak up here? Unlike myself, maybe you are the more god-like kind of parent, who WOULD poison a cookie, and place it in the cookie jar, to test your children, at the penalty death?


--

Wow Craig you seem really bitter and antagonistic towards the creator. It was a big plan. It works. I am grateful for it.

It's like you were driving a honda. Awesome in it's durability, simplicity, economy. Then someone came along and poured sugar in your gas tank. Instead of disliking the sugar and the person pouring it you decide to hate on the honda.

We can see in the old testament how God feels about changing the method of worship from the way we are instructed. Luckily God won't kill us. But he will judge us on that final day.

Lev 10:1 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not. 2 And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.

I will continue to worship the way the new testament prescribes and continue to encourage people to study their bible to know whether their worship is acceptable. This is pleasing to God.

Acts 17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

II Tim 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Paul,

Of course I am not antagonistic toward the Creator. He is my father. I love Him more than I love any human being. I am antagonistic toward the mentally derranged version of Creator God, that funadmentalist Christians (or Muslims, or anyone else) presents to the world, as representing God the Father.

Sadly, you got NOTHING out of my entire response, and happily continue on with your blinders fully attached. Your denomination would be pleased.

You are a faithful party hack.

If only you were that faithful to Father God Himself and to TRUTH.

Self-delusion, avoiding facts, playing with the truth, to preserve the failed version of "truth" you have bought into... Not a healthy lifestyle. It burdens the conscience to "pretend" all the time, and "ignore" the rest of the time.

You are like a flat-earther in the midst of the accepted knowledge that the Earth is actually spherical and not flat. You would have been among those screaming for Copernicus and Galileo to be executed for heresy, had you lived back then. You have the same outdated and inferior thinking.

Just realize that at one time, MOST PEOPLE bought into the church's BIBLICALLY BASED view, that the Earth DOES NOT MOVE and is the center of the universe, with the Sun rising on one side of a supposedly flat Earth, and then setting on the other side of that flat Earth.

You have the benefit if being born in a modern age though, don't you?

And this biblically based misconception of the Cosmos has been proven false, and it is COMMON KNOWLEDGE now that the CHURCH was WRONG. Though, more than a few people were tortured and killed for heresy before this view won out.

Amazingly however, though you accept for some reason that the Earth is spherical and rotates around the Sun, which is the center of our Galaxy and not the Earth... still, you cling to the mythological church view, that the entire cosmos is less than 10,000 (ten thousand) years old, despite scientific evidence to the contrary, that our galaxy is BILLIONS of years old. This view has now won out also, yet you cling to the outdated church version still. You are in a disturbing minority.

It's baffling though.

Why would you believe in a 7 day creation or a 6 to 10,000 year old Earth, and not also cling to the church's position that the Earth is flat?

How do you pick and choose, which accepted scientific findings, you will accept and which ones you won't?

I'm curious how you work that out?

Did the photos from space of planet Earth convince you?

Those could have been faked.

.

Paul,

I am coming across as being offensive toward you personally, but really, I am focused on CHALLENGING you, to find truth on it's own merits, and not based on what you grew up learning from Sunday School teachers.

I suspect that you realize that defending the Bible as scientifically reliable, is a lost cause, but you cannot afford to follow the yellow brick road all the way to the end...

"I lead music in church... people respect me... I have friends there... what happens if I suddenly didn't believe in and uphold the party line for our denomination? Can I still lead music there? Will I maintain my friends? Will I be ostracized as a heretic because suddenly I don't believe some of the outdated beliefs they hold?"

Or maybe...

"Who the hell is Craig Maxim? I belong to a denomination with 5 million adherents! How can this guy be right, and 5 million of my flat-earth soulmates be wrong????"

Well, the same way that much of the world believed the earth was flat, in Copernicus' day. The same way that "turn the other cheek" was a foreign concept in Jesus' day. The same way that many Christians still today, believe in a perversely torturous parent... God, who "loves" us, but places poison killer-fruit in the middle of our approved fruit, just to "test" us. A God who loves us, but will torture us unmericifully, FOREVER - WITHOUT END, if we don't love Him back.

The times they are a changin'

Change with them Paul.


Free yourself from your flat-earth philosophies.

Your brain will thank you!

.

Paul,

Of course I am not antagonistic toward the Creator.

God is so damned inflexible,

Following God's instructions perfectly is Sooooooo important to God, that he will condemn HUNDREDS OF GENERATIONS

Don't strike me down for these suggestions, but hey God...

Paul,

Of course I am not antagonistic toward the Creator.

Sadly, you got NOTHING out of my entire response, and happily continue on with your blinders fully attached. Your denomination would be pleased.

In order for there to be a denomination there must be a division. When you follow the clear new testament pattern there is no division therefore no denomination. But of course you already know that. You just like to try to antagonize.

You are a faithful party hack.

My how classy. Actually I'm faithful to the bible, God's will for us.

If only you were that faithful to Father God Himself and to TRUTH.

If only you were faithful to the clear truth in the bible God so lovingly put in front of you. Then and only then would you be faithful to the God you claim to be faithful to.

Self-delusion, avoiding facts, playing with the truth, to preserve the failed version of "truth" you have bought into...

Got any examples? Nope, didn't think so. Again here we are I show in the bible why I believe and you contest the God breathed word at every turn.

to preserve the failed version of "truth" you have bought into...

So the God breathed truth is "the failed version of "truth""? Wow wouldn't want to face God on judgement day with that on my head. because....

II Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

It not only is dependable. It is the only way we have to know God's will for us.

You are like a flat-earther in the midst of the accepted knowledge that the Earth is actually spherical and not flat. You would have been among those screaming for Copernicus and Galileo to be executed for heresy, had you lived back then. You have the same outdated and inferior thinking.

Just realize that at one time, MOST PEOPLE bought into the church's BIBLICALLY BASED view, that the Earth DOES NOT MOVE and is the center of the universe, with the Sun rising on one side of a supposedly flat Earth, and then setting on the other side of that flat Earth.

You have the benefit if being born in a modern age though, don't you?

And this biblically based misconception of the Cosmos has been proven false, and it is COMMON KNOWLEDGE now that the CHURCH was WRONG. Though, more than a few people were tortured and killed for heresy before this view won out..

You spew refuse Craig. "The CHURCH" you reference is not the bible or of the bible.

The bible actually says the earth "Hangeth upon nothing. And that it is round.

Isaiah 40:22 and Job 26:7

But you've heard that from me before. Looks like you are wearing the blinders you accuse me of wearing.

So obviously it was not biblically based.

You are in a disturbing minority.

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

How do you pick and choose, which accepted scientific findings, you will accept and which ones you won't?

Picking and choosing is your signature move Craig. If you can't trust some of it why do trust any of it. You scar the mission.

Paul,

Of course I am not antagonistic toward the Creator.

God is so damned inflexible,

Following God's instructions perfectly is Sooooooo important to God, that he will condemn HUNDREDS OF GENERATIONS

Don't strike me down for these suggestions, but hey God...

Paul,

Of course I am not antagonistic toward the Creator.

Are you going to INTENTIONALLY ignore where I repeatedly said that I was mocking LIES ABOUT GOD, and not the real God, whom I love and revere?

That is dishonest of you.

.

Again here we are I show in the bible why I believe and you contest the God breathed word at every turn.

What do you think God "breathed" means?

I suspect, like many other fundamentalists who use this verse to claim that God wrote EVERY WORD of the Bible, that you believe it means the words lioterally CAME OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD. He breathed them.

Whereas, the term "God breathed" literally means, only "God inspired"

And as mentioned previously, if you were to see a movie INSPIRED by true events, you would not assume that there was no creative license used by the authors and directors of the movie. Instead, you would accept that THE BASIC PREMISE of the movie is faithful to the facts, whereas there could also be some embellishments, meant to enhance the story, fill in gaps, whatever, while remaining faithful to the important and essential facts.

Do you believe that the Bible is "Inspired by God" or do you believe that the Bible is LITERALLY God's own words? Because these are not compatible. It's one or the other. If the words are literally God's own, then he did not "inspire" the words of the Bible, he AUTHORED them.

Are you getting it?

If the Bible is God's literal words, then how did He "inspire" them? They're his words I thought? Did He have to inspire himself?

.

Paul,

I am coming across as being offensive toward you personally,

That is your usual m.o. Craig. That's ok. I have the bible to back my beliefs.

but really, I am focused on CHALLENGING you, to find truth on it's own merits, and not based on what you grew up learning from Sunday School teachers.

Those sunday school teachers actually taught me the truth Craig. The same truth they teach today. The truth that like God is unchanging.

I suspect that you realize that defending the Bible as scientifically reliable, is a lost cause,

Whatever. The bible talks about the earth being in space and round long before we could detect that. It talks about freshwater springs in the oceans and "the path of the sea" modern shipping lanes long before we could detect it. It said life is in the blood while we were still "bleeding" people. Nothing in the bible is contradicted by science. God could have easily created an adult earth and universe just as he created adult humans.

"I lead music in church... people respect me... I have friends there... what happens if I suddenly didn't believe in and uphold the party line for our denomination? Can I still lead music there? Will I maintain my friends? Will I be ostracized as a heretic because suddenly I don't believe some of the outdated beliefs they hold?"

Got your blinders on again Craig? Remember when I told you that one time there was a teaching in the church that was not biblically sound. My dad showed the members where their teaching was against the bible. They didn't change. We had to leave and worship with a biblically sound church. That was in 1978. Since then we drive twice as far to get to the church that follows the guidelines found in the new testament. The "party line"? There is no party line. There is only the bible. The one you don't trust. If we were doing something against the bible and I brought it up it would be changed to match the plan in the bible. it has happened before. Church discipline for instance. Anther one I brought up you chose to forget. If you remembered that last paragraph wouldn't be here.

II thess 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

We weren't doing that. someone brought it up. We changed it to match the bible.

Or maybe...

"Who the hell is Craig Maxim? I belong to a denomination with 5 million adherents! How can this guy be right, and 5 million of my flat-earth soulmates be wrong????"

There is no division. There is only the new testament guide. There is no "5 million members" There is only the autonomous family of 180 or so Christians we worship with. Autonomous is the only biblical church government.

Well, the same way that much of the world believed the earth was flat, in Copernicus' day. The same way that "turn the other cheek" was a foreign concept in Jesus' day. The same way that many Christians still today, believe in a perversely torturous parent... God, who "loves" us, but places poison killer-fruit in the middle of our approved fruit, just to "test" us. A God who loves us, but will torture us unmericifully, FOREVER - WITHOUT END, if we don't love Him back.

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

The times they are a changin'

ecc 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

10 Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.

Change with them Paul.

God doesn't change. Truth doesn't change. The only change I need is to sin less and learn more from God's inspired word.

Free yourself from your flat-earth philosophies.

I don't have to because I was never there. The bible never was either.

What do you think God "breathed" means?

I think it means this....

II Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

I suspect, like many other fundamentalists who use this verse to claim that God wrote EVERY WORD of the Bible, that you believe it means the words lioterally CAME OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD. He breathed them.

Whereas, the term "God breathed" literally means, only "God inspired"

You mean God inspired the bible?!

Well we better trust it then.

Fundamentalist.... It has a negative connotation of course. You'd like to apply it to me negatively. But what does the word mean? Lets get down to the fundamentals of what the bible says. Sounds wise to me. Am I a fundamentalist? I guess by definition I am. Am I a Christian? Yes a Christian only.

Do you believe that the Bible is "Inspired by God" or do you believe that the Bible is LITERALLY God's own words? Because these are not compatible. It's one or the other. If the words are literally God's own, then he did not "inspire" the words of the Bible, he AUTHORED them.

Are you getting it?
.

The bible is the inspired word of God. He guided the writers. It is dependable.

Rom 12:2
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Either you believe the bible is dependable or you don't.

You aren't arguing with me. You are arguing with the verses I quote. You are arguing with the bible. Good luck with that.

You know what...

STOP BEING AFRAID PAUL!!!

You have the spirit of the living God, dwelling WITHIN YOU, don't you?

Yet, you cannot TRUST that inner voice that is LITERALLY GOD HIMSELF talking to you, can you? You somehow find that WRITTEN TEXT from thousands of years ago, is a more faithful guide for your life, than GOD HIMSELF living within you!

It's a shame you cannot understand that.

You are limiting yourself. You are in effect, limiting God as well.

It's almost like ignoring God Himself, standing right before you, because He cannot be trusted, and you turn away from the God STANDING RIGHT THERE, so you can READ ABOUT HIM in a book.

And you think this makes sense?

You actually think this is a reflection of a solid relationship with another being? That you can trust more, what was written about him, by other men, by intermediaries, than you can trust listening to God HIMSELF who dwells within you?

You'll never punch your way out of that paper sack.

"God lives within me, but He doesn't communicate with me, unless it is through a physical book, OUTSIDE of me, found somewhere else. Here's God HIMSELF, LITERALLY right inside me, living in my heart, but I need to look around for where I placed that Bible, so I can communicate with Him. Cause we can only communicate effectively with Him, by READING books published by Zondervan or some other book publisher."

What would you do if you were ever imprisoned for your faith?

What if they allowed you no Bibles?

How are you going to learn anymore? I guess learning about God would be over for you then? Unless you memorized the entire Bible, and even then... what if you got some of those God breathed words wrong? Pretty risky. Nope, I suppose your spiritual life, where learning about God is concerned, would effectively be over. You are imprisoned, and no reading material is available to you. And without READING, we can't learn about God, or experience His love... or wait... can we feel God's love, just not hear Him communicate with our hearts?

But this changes after death, right?

Then God no longer requires a long distance relationship, where we are only allowed to communicate or learn anything, by READING TEXT on a page, right?

Or will some of us be inside the pearly gates, while you hang outside, and read your book?

"Where's Paul?"

"He's outside reading about you, to please you, by communicating the proper way with you Lord... indirectly, through text and reading glasses."

"But I'm right here... doesn't Paul want to have a relationship with "ME"???

"I'm sure He does Lord..."

"Then, why would he stay OUTSIDE, reading books ABOUT me then, when he can have ME MYSELF?

"Some people have funny ways of expressing love Lord."

.

Paul,

Of course I am not antagonistic toward the Creator.

God is so damned inflexible,

Following God's instructions perfectly is Sooooooo important to God, that he will condemn HUNDREDS OF GENERATIONS

Don't strike me down for these suggestions, but hey God...

Paul,

Of course I am not antagonistic toward the Creator.

Are you going to INTENTIONALLY ignore where I repeatedly said that I was mocking LIES ABOUT GOD, and not the real God, whom I love and revere?

That is dishonest of you.

.

You were not clear. You rarely are. You have no guide. You waffle on your own ideas. Man - you - fallible.

Prov 16:25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

You can't rely on your reasoning. Ego gets in the way. That especially effects you. Trust the bible Craig or don't claim to be a Christian.

With me you are going to know where I stand by reading the bible.

You know what...

STOP BEING AFRAID PAUL!!!

Are squirming because I have pinned you? Because that makes no sense. God doesn't change and neither does his will. Where do detect fear?
That is just weird to me.

You have the spirit of the living God, dwelling WITHIN YOU, don't you?

Yet, you cannot TRUST that inner voice that is LITERALLY GOD HIMSELF talking to you, can you? You somehow find that WRITTEN TEXT from thousands of years ago, is a more faithful guide for your life, than GOD HIMSELF living within you!

It's a shame you cannot understand that.

Craig the inner voice is your ego. Swaggart. The inner voice is also your conscience molded by parents and life. Hopefully molded by study of the bible.

25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Read the bible to know if something is a sin or not.

It's a shame that you do not trust the bible or trust God's promises that his will for us is found there.

You are limiting yourself. You are in effect, limiting God as well.

You are not trusting God when you deny his clear will. He promised it contains all we need.

Communicating with God is part of my Christian life.

It's called prayer Craig.

He doesn't speak to me as an inner voice. The bible doesn't say he would. It does say his will is there for us and that we will be judged on the written guidelines.

Now I have you with me, under my power
Our love grows stronger now with every hour
Look into my eyes, you will see who I am
My name is Lucifer, please take my hand