General Music Chat

Oh dear we do have our knickers in a twist lol!
You are right about the press. We all know that sucks to high heaven, we also know that some of our household names suck too. :loI:

I'm far from perfection, so are we friends now?

Let us have a hero or two in our lives. Shut the hell up unless you are perfect. For that matter, if you're perfect, shut the hell up anyway, cuz I can't deal with perfection.

I understand where you are coming from Phil. Privacy is not an option for a public figure of that caliber though. And actually, I don't know that the way things used to be, was better. We now know without doubt, what a user of women JFK was. Not merely affairs, but the way these women were treated. As things. Possessions to be used and then discarded like trash. He treated his own wife this way. A complete charade. Their marriage was loveless and she was chosen for him merely for public consumption. Is it bad to know the truth? I don't think so. Truth is truth. I don't know that buying into a fantasy is a better way of life. Doesn't that just set us up for greater dissapointment in the end?

In any event, I think your opinion has some valid points to consider.

However...

Let's dispense with the "We don't know what we would do with money like that..." kind of talk. He wasn't married first, and only LATER became famous, tasting all the trappings for the first time.

On the contrary... He had been quite rich and quite famous WELL BEFORE getting married. He had all the women he wanted, BEFORE deciding to involve another human being in his lifestyle. He knew what money and fame were like, quite well. And STILL he chose to commit himself to a faithful and monogamous relationship with someone through marriage.

No one pulled the wool over his eyes. The big bad world of priveledge did not seduce him unwittingly. He "KNEW" he was going to cheat. There's no doubt in my mind about that.

This is what really pisses me off about people who cheat in their marriages, and particularly CHRONIC cheaters... IF YOU CAN'T KEEP IT IN YOUR PANTS, THEN WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING ENTERING A MONOGAMOUS RELATIONSHIP, DUMBASS!!!???

Why get married?

Stay single. Stop f*cking up other people's hearts and lives for your own selfish enjoyment. It's like putting a pedophile in charge of a daycare center. Would you do that? Then why do the other? If it's against your nature or power to be faithful in a relationship.... STOP PROMISING FAITHFULNESS!!!

There are no shortages of women who are up for any lifestyle you are. Find one of those, and stop being a wolf in sheep's clothing... pretending to be something you are not, leading a double life, only to break the heart of someone WHO DID keep their committment to YOU.


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Well, privacy of a sort USED TO BE available to a celebrity of his caliber. Of course, today, all bets are off, cuz isn't it such FUN to bring down the high & mighty!?!?!?

Still, it makes no difference in his ability. It makes him no less of a star in his field. He ain't perfect. So what? Yeah, thanks to his personal problems being aired to the world, he's taking a break from his sport. Had he been left alone, he would still be contributing as much as he had. Now, of course, it would seem a bit tasteless for him to PLAY at his sport, wouldn't it?

As I said, apply your rules of conduct to ANY of the greats in music. Beethoven - had syphilus...Peter Gabriel - shaved his head in the 70's to atone for cheating on his wife...David Bowie & Mick Jagger - in BED together? Weren't they also married (to other ppl) at the time? The list is too long to bother with.

Who fits your description of a decent person? Nary a damned one of them, if you look deeply enough into thier personal affairs, while applying your standards of behavior.

Now look at the ppl you work with. Delve deeply enough into thier lives. Hell, look at yourself. You ain't all that. You might not have done this, but you surely have done SOMETHING you ain't proud of, & would rather not discuss or have aired to us all.

Remember that good ol' Golden Rule. Apply it generously to one & all, or be a hypocrite, if you don't apply the same strict standards to yourself IN ALL AREAS OF YOUR LIFE. Um...that includes indiscretions both past & present, btw.

Why has no one been talking about the wife's violent behavior since all of this came out? Are we suggesting that it was JUSTIFIED? Ain't THAT a fine can o' worms!

Say what you want about him. He had the decency to agree to a pre-nup, & is following its parameters. Imho, a pre-nup is a promise to fail in a marriage, & covers the problems that invariably arise when it fails. Looking at it that way, he did alright by her, in every way. He promised to fail. He did. He also promised to continue to take care of her & the kids. He is. I'd say he's actually fairly decent, as cheaters go. Far far FAR more decent than most.

For heaven's sake, let him do what he does best, so he can still be a great contributing factor in the world of golf, AND to his busted up family!

And quit calling him names while you're at it, cuz in truth, you know as well as I do, that you ain't all that much better, & have had far less to contriobute in your chosen field of endeavor than Tiger has in his.

A simple man whom stops at the side of the road to help a stranger is more heroic than all the sports figures whom ever lived rolled into one.
Let us be heroes instead of needing one.

Best post of the day.

Happy Christmas Sans.

A simple man whom stops at the side of the road to help a stranger is more heroic than all the sports figures whom ever lived rolled into one.
Let us be heroes instead of needing one.

Back at ya Chippy!

A simple man whom stops at the side of the road to help a stranger is more heroic than all the sports figures whom ever lived rolled into one.
Let us be heroes instead of needing one.

Well said.

Couldn't agree more!

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Phil,

It's kind of like why Republicans get so smeared when they get involved in seedy behavior, compared with Democrats. Republicans tend to profess faith in strong character and moral principles. No one cares nearly as much when a Democrat is caught in an affair. With a Republican, it's more like catching a minister in the act of adultery. More savory and newsworthy. They set themselves up for it unintentionally, by professing high moral standards. You mentioned David Bowie and others. Who expects high moral behavior from a rock star? People are less likely to ATTACK a David Bowie as they are to just shake their heads... "Those weird ass rock musician types!"

Can you see the difference?

If you are a spokesperson for products that are trying to maintain a wholesome, family-type image, as some of Tiger's endorsees are, then you expect that the IMAGE you are paying your pitchman for, is faithful to that... "Tiger presents a family image to the world, and he will be a perfect match for representing our family-oriented products and company!"

When someone prresenting such a facade to the world is caught, quite literally, with his pants down, then it will be sensational news. There is no avoiding that. Think of the backlash when Milli Vanilli were found to NOT be the real singers they tried to present themselves as? Their careers were over. The public doesn't take kindly to buying into your image... believing in you and supporting you economically, only to find you pulled the wool over our eyes all along.

When it was found that Vanilla Ice had no real history in the streets as a gangbanger, despite parading around as if he had... what happened? He was relegated to D-List status. Things changed overnight.

That was Vanilla Ice's fault ultimately, no one else's.

And this is Tiger's doing. No one else's.

He set himself up for his own fall.

He did this to himself. Not me or you, or the media.

I have no sympathy for him.

You have to be pretty callous to think you can get away with such behavior in the modern age of massive papparazzi and cameras on everything from cellphones to ipods. Someone's getting a picture somewhere. Someone's gonna tell, to sell a book.

You would either be a stupid individual, or a self-consumed one, to think you could simply get away with that, so often, and for ever?

Tiger never appeared "stupid" to me.

I go with self-absorbed.

Narcissitic even.

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Why get married?

Because in our society, that's what you're supposed to do. That's "normal".

Don't ignore the impact that societal norms have in this. Why does a guy like Tiger get married when he has everything he wants as a single guy? Well, easy - because society presses that upon us. How often do you think people asked him, as a single guy (and wealthy and popular), "Hey, Tiger, when you going to get married?"

Married people know what I'm talking about here, because they see the same pressures about kids. It's like as soon as you get married, the grandparents and aunts and uncles start asking, "When are you going to have some kids? When are you going to give us a grandchild?" Even though some couples might make terrible parents, or might live full and happy lives as a childless couple, their parents and relatives and friends put the pressure on them because in our society that is what you are supposed to do. You're supposed to get married and have kids.

I'm sure Tiger felt a ton of pressure to get married, settle down and have kids. But obviously that's not part of his core persona.


It takes a strong person with a ton of self confidence to tell society to go screw itself, and that you're going to do what makes you happy in life...

I should know.

I hardly would hold any of his sponsorships against him. Hell, if the local church was gonna back me, I'd take it, & I'm not a christian, Craig!

I suppose you'll twist that to say something about my character, or the lack thereof, but money is money, & I need it, esp right now....LOL

Wholesome family sponsorships aside, I wouldn't say that ppl who play golf are any more moral than musicians. I realize the general public doesn't look at us that way, but that matters not at all. Hell, most of the golfers I know are FAR less moral than lots of my friends.

This guy is no better or worse as a human being than any of us. That's the bottom line.

I'd go so far as to say that his current situation is more an attempt by some to legislate morality over evolution, than anything else. Men have the urge to procreate. We tell them that to do so is immoral, outside the confines of marriage, but saying those things doesn't reduce the basic need one bit. We are hard-wired for it. It's acceptable in many other societies. I don't find it immoral at all. I find it natural, if a bit complicating in today's American society. Ppl who have multitudes of affairs exist in every area of American culture, though. Zippetydoo-dah. He got caught. BFD. Get over it & move on. It means less than nothing, when it comes to assessments of his contributions to society, his work, & yes, even his role as father, imo.

It's only been over the last century or so that we've enforced all these posted rules of sexual behavior for everyone, no matter thier faith, & I think it's ridiculous, & it's getting worse every year, esp in this country, where it's become so popular to over-moralize everything. I refuse to let the Kathy Lee Gifford mentality sway me on this issue (or many others, for that matter!). So the man is virile, & has needs. BFD. He can afford them. Let him play. I'd say his very virility is something to be celebrated, not controlled or squashed by some asshole's ideal model for a "moral society." It is neither moral nor immoral, & it is certainly not a "societal issue," but merely a personal one. More judeo/christian & "woman-empowerment" enforced evolutionary tactics to remove testosterone from the species, & to control individuals in every area of thier lives.

Let a man be a frikken man! So he slipped from societal norms on a grand scale. This in no way makes him less of a person than any one of us.

I suppose that you can tell that I've slipped a time or twenty, myself, over the years, during my 2 marriages. So has sans. I think no less of either of us. I haven't done it in a very long time, but I refuse to let anyone tell me that I am a bad person for it. Screw that! I am what I am - a man. I believe that this is a part of being a man. I might do it again someday. I won't ever say that I won't. It says nothing about how I feel about my wife or son. It says nothing about what I feel about my god. It says nothing about what I think about my society, either. I can accept my manhood, my sexuality, & still accept that I am & can continue to be a contributing member of society despite your beliefs & judgements. I am at peace with what & who I am.

As far as Tiger goes, I find very little to forgive in his actions, cuz he's simply a very successful man, both on & off the golf course.

I'm sure you have a slew of examples of why this behavior is wicked, Craig, & I fully realize that I'm definitely in the minority with my views on the subject, but the usual arguments I hear are all from a woman's or a judeo/christian's viewpoint (which most often seem to be interchangeable). There are, in fact, damned few "pairs for life" in nature. We were NOT wired that way, but CHOSE to be that way. That says it all to me. If we were meant to act like penguins or snow geese, these issues would never arise. Even your bible allows a man more than one wife, so as far as I can tell, even your god understands a man's needs better than you & your ilk. These acts are NOT immoral, except in this artificially manufactured society that requires lying to f*ck.

Phil,

For me, it really just boils down to this...

I could care less whether someone has sex with as many women as he possibly can, as often as he likes. Affairs are wrong, because it is a BROKEN COMMITTMENT. It really just comes down to that. Entering into a relationship committment, through traditional marriage, basically states... "I am ready to become a husband and father. To create a family... children for a legacy."

It is, in essence, the beginning of a small tribe.

And any tribe is more successful, more productive and more safe, when the members of the tribe are COMMITTED -ONLY- and -FULLY- to the same tribe.

Loyalty helps ensure SURVIVAL.

What some fail to realize, is that marriage is much the same. It is a COMMITTMENT of LOYALTY, and a public declaration stating: "For forever more, we are now on the same TEAM. We will see life through... TOGETHER! From this day forward."

How successful are broken and divided teams?

They aren't.

Teams are only successful when they are working TOGETHER for the SAME GOALS, as a.... TEAM.

If one player of a sports team started losing games on purpose because he was betting money with bookies for his own team to lose. Does this help the team win? Of course not. And it is a perfect example of what happens when our SELFISH and PERSONAL motives, find themselves in conflict with the goals and motives of the TEAM. The team LOSES when I pursue a purely personal agenda.

No different for marriage.

Promising faithfulness, and then screwing around anyway and BREAKING that promise, only contributes to the DEFEAT of the team you were betting on belonging to, for the rest of your life.

It is morally wrong: Breaking a committment. Lying.
It is wrong from the standpoint of logic: A united and loyal TEAM working for what is in the TEAM'S best interest, will have a far greater chance of success, than a "team" of INDIVIDUALS, working toward their own self-interest. This makes the team divided and working against itself, rather than cooperating for the good of the TEAM.

Having affairs doesn't make you... "evil".

It merely makes you... "selfish" - "unwise" and "untrustworthy".


The fact remains...

DO NOT GET MARRIED... DO NOT MAKE YOUR SPOUSE PROMISES... If you cannot keep them. Would you consider someone mentally off if they continued running head first into a wall, over and over again, seeing full well that the wall never budges and never will? How is serially breaking your committment of faithfulness any different?

"I'm probably not going to be loyal, but I am going to enter a relationship dependent upon a committment of loyalty anyway!"

Here I go... headfirst into a brick wall again! Maybe it will move this time?

That makes alot of sense!



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And YOU have never broken your word in your life?

Far as I can tell, that's the only way you can sit in judgement & remain a man of good character.

If you haven't lived that perfect life, then allow this man to make his own mistakes. Allow him his own personal character evolution, if you will.

I still maintain that he provided for this with his pre-nup. Do YOU know anyone else who would have provided such, with so much at stake? I'd say he's done very well by his little tribe, far better than you or I would have done, simply in terms of dollars & cents, if nothing else.

Holding up his faults to the world as a "bad example of manhood" or whatever is about the dumbest thing we can do, after he's done so much in his lifetime. Concentrate on his good works. Don't go back & tell our children what a horrible man JFK (or RFK or MLK) was (they ALL cheated, by the way - what a HORRIBLE way to treat women! PFFFT!). Allow them to see the good he's done in his short lifetime. Let him deal with his personal faults in a personal fashion.

Men of power have faults. Why celebrate them? Why is it so necessary for you to cut down the ppl who do so well in most areas of thier lives - good that helps many many ppl other than themselves. Will you not allow them thier own human frailties, too?

The way things are here in the overmoralized USA, he could not have gotten those sponsorships in the 1st place had he not been married with children. Had he been UNmarried with children, we would not have looked at him as such a fine example of golf club ownership or minivan ownership. Gimme a freakin' break, man! To move ahead, to make money on a large scale, one must give the appearance of the societal norm, which NO ONE lives up to, 100%.

The more we chop down the ppl who do the greatest good, the less appealling those activities become, & the fewer ppl try to do great on a grand scale. Why put yourself out there to be chopped to pieces by the popparazzi, your coworkers, & your overzealous neighbors (who have just as many skeletons in thier own closets)? In addition, it gives the other less than moral ppl perfect excuses to do what they might otherwise not - "well, if Tiger can do it & get away with it for so long, I know I can, & heck, if I hold my numbers down to, say, 3 or 4, I'm less likely to be caught. After all, I'm not anyone who needs such scrutiny."

In the end, I will say this - unless you're willing to sit there & type out all of your wrongs, & prove that they're not as bad as what this guy did, then shut the f*ck up about him. He hasn't physically harmed. He hasn't stolen. He hasn't done anything TO anyone, but FOR himself. So he made some selfish decisions in your eyes. That makes him HUMAN, not less so.

Until our society allows a human being to exist perfectly honestly, ppl will have reason to lie to do those things they are programmed to do. Get over it or prove your perfection.

If you have such things in your past & "overcome them," the decent thing for you to do is to allow him the opportunity to do the same, without your finger wagging.

Your examples are apples & oranges. The team player who bets against the team also does what he can to hurt that team, maliciously, with bad intent, to further his own ends. Tiger did not do that. He continued to provide love, financial security, fatherly intervention, while he did whatever he did.

Your morals don't apply, except in a womanly & modern judeo/christian fashion.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

Yes, Chippy - we're still friends.

I personally believe it is natural and beneficial for man to be both heterosexual and to be monogamous.
There are just too many psychosocial, psychological, and physical problems IE disease processes that are totally avoided by being monogamous.
Speaking for myself, living like a slut was very stressful and not at all emotionally fulfilling. Fortunately I was able to avoid any STD involvement.
But the life style caused a lot of pain for myself and others in comparison to the temporary pleasures of the flesh obtained.
Though still plagued by a voracious lust. I seek out healthier outlets for it.

Phil,

I don't think you are appreciating the difference between humanly mistakes and narcissistic behavior or maybe chronic self-destructive behavior. We all stick our finger in a wall socket or put it too close to a fire as a child, and we learn from these mistakes. Would you say there is something wrong however, with someone who makes his mistake, and continues burning his finger again and again? Not normal behavior is it? Tiger slept with the first one after he was married, where was the guilt? Where was the sense of shame? He apparently felt none, and it was the most normal thing in the world, for him to continue, again and again, breaking his committment to his wife, threatening her health, since she effectively sleeps with everyone he does, only without her being able to consent to it.

We can agree that ALL HUMANS fail to varying degrees, and make mistakes in life. This is something else. This wasn't an "accident". It was a lifestyle choice. The worst part about it, is that his wife, his life partner, the one he committed fidelity to, she ends up being NONE of those things to him. It was all a charade. She was there to be used. A prop. How demeaning that is to another human being, who has pledged their life, to be in union with yours. It is devastating emotionally to the one betrayed.

Yet he chooses to lead a double life, behind his partner's back, and do it THROUGHOUT their marriage. Not an accident because he was drunk and they were going through a tough time. Not a single mistake, or a month long affair with a single person. This was friggin' Baskins Robbins flavor of the day. Entertainment. Without the SLIGHTEST concern for the harm it could bring to his wife, and his own children, and his family and friends.

You can dismiss that if you like, but for me, it shows me his utter lack of character, and concern only for himself. He loses my respect as a person. If he gains it back, by making ammends and not repeating his indiscretions, then awesome. None of this has anything to do with his prowess as a golfer however. Those stats will go in the record books regardless. His reputation as a golfer should not suffer. He didn't do what Pete Rose did. This had nothing to do with golf. It was a personal failing. But people have a right to be disappointed when they find out someone they respected, was instead living a double life.

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Until our society allows a human being to exist perfectly honestly, ppl will have reason to lie to do those things they are programmed to do. Get over it or prove your perfection.

Could not have said that better myself Phil.