General Music Chat

However, I would like to be a professional, and so I try to approach situations as a pro would. Being ill prepared, or half-assing a performance definitely falls onto my DO NOT DO list.

A Pro can have 30 songs together in 3 or 4 days (1 day if there easy songs) a a couple of rehearsals and be ready for the show .. and it wouldn't be a half ass show. I've done it in as little time as 6 hrs with charts ... and not easy material, 2 chords to the bar with 6 chord turn arounds in every song.

For a Pro there's no such time as be ill prepared and you don't aways get the amount time that you would like to work on the material .. you have to be ready no matter what .. if your ill prepared you won't get a call-back for the next gig.

I know your not a pro, but these are the conditions that pro's work in ...
Like many have said .. you have a month to put this together ... dead lines work wonders for getting things done ... they work for me.

Ron

If you are getting paid, you are a pro. Each show that you do is advertizing who you are and you should improve with each performance...unless your bio-rhythms are off. Every show that you do you should perform at your best. No different from Metallica or the LA Phil.

Getting paid does not make you a Pro, that is only one element. I see some pretty sh*itty players getting paid ... and no one would consider them Pro's. To me a pro can do the things I listed ... as well as attitude. Getting paid goes without saying.

There's a few on this forum that could do the task of a Pro ... Crip, Jimmy, JW, N-Paul .. to name a few that stand out. And you maybe one to .. Black ... I don't know.

The only thing holding some back is opportunity, knowing the right people.

I think ... I'm getting carried away with this, and Iapologize, but I feel that the word Pro gets over used in the music scene .. you will know when your playing with a Pro ..

Nuff said.

Ron

28 dollars wont put strings on my guitars so I would go in the hole doing that one . But seriously , It sounds like somebody is trying to test somebodys waters. Maybe their own. Tell em to pull it off you want the whole 100 plus your share at the door and then give it your all. They say whatever your doing on the first is what you'll be doing the rest of the year. Might lead to some good paying gigs , might lead to more 25 dollar gigs . I don't care about the money much ,cause I work for a living and thats my release from the grind. I like the fellowship I get with my bands and fans.

And its another day in Paradise !!!!

I couldn't agree more, Ron. I think that I may not have made myself clear on the issues I'm facing, and using the term "professionalism" may have taken away from the point of the OP.

Phil said that if someone signed him on for a $28 gig, he'd laugh them out of the band.
Of course he would, because he has certain standards that he expects to have met.

Ron, I really have a lot of respect for what you are doing, and when you mentioned always being prepared, I have to ask:

What do you do when faced with a musical situation, where the other musicians involved are not prepared?

I guarantee you that if, you asked to perform with the same fellas I'm with now, one of two things would happen:

A: You would decline.

B: You would take over-not because you are an egomaniac, but because your knowledge and professionalism (sorry) gives you an edge over the others.

The reality of the situation is that my area is choc-full of musicians, 95% of which don't understand the finer points of entertainment. They would watch many of you perform and stand there in awe, mouths hanging open. However, when it comes to "taking their craft to the next level", they fall short, no so much due to lack of ability, but more so, due to lack of willingness.

SO, where do you draw the line? At what point do you say "These guys aren't on my level".
What choice would you make when faced with the decision of either playing beneath your ability or not performing in public?

I really would like to read your thoughts on this, because it's a decision I deal with every day...

When they don't know their parts 2 practices in a row, I give 'em the ultimatum - don't waste my time a 3rd time. Now recently, I've let things slide quite a bit with one guy, but I eventually did get the other guys to agree to give him the boot.

We have a new guy, now. We worked with him again last night, & gave him a CD, & I told him what we expect. I think he will live up to he expectations, but time will tell.

Life does interfere with the best of intentions, but ya know what? The guy you wanna play with will be the guy that overcomes it & does the job at hand.

The problem is - that guy is pretty rare, & sometimes you just hafta decide whether you're gonna work with others at all, & put up with the frustrations, or not. Not only is he hard to find, but it's even harder to find the one who does the work AND is into whatever you're doing. When you finally latch onto him, he's pure gold, you meld as one, musically, & all seems right in the world.

Will you compromise, or will you hold out, indefinitely? There are no promises in life, & we've all had to compromise a time or three just to be able to play at all...To that end, I've charted out entire songs for everyone in the band, distributed CD's, sat with them one on one...anything to get the job done. It usually ain't worth all that effort, though, cuz in the end, a weekend warrior is still a weekend warrior, & he won't put in the time & effort to make it as great as he could if he were truly as involved as I can be.

I've been very lucky in finding a drummer who fits the criteria.

Well said Philby. I can so relate to that!

Getting paid does not make you a Pro, that is only one element. I see some pretty sh*itty players getting paid ... and no one would consider them Pro's. To me a pro can do the things I listed ... as well as attitude. Getting paid goes without saying.

There's a few on this forum that could do the task of a Pro ... Crip, Jimmy, JW, N-Paul .. to name a few that stand out. And you maybe one to .. Black ... I don't know.

The only thing holding some back is opportunity, knowing the right people.

I think ... I'm getting carried away with this, and Iapologize, but I feel that the word Pro gets over used in the music scene .. you will know when your playing with a Pro ..

Nuff said.

Ron

That was really well said.

I couldn't agree more, Ron. I think that I may not have made myself clear on the issues I'm facing, and using the term "professionalism" may have taken away from the point of the OP.

Ron, I really have a lot of respect for what you are doing, and when you mentioned always being prepared, I have to ask:

What do you do when faced with a musical situation, where the other musicians involved are not prepared?

I guarantee you that if, you asked to perform with the same fellas I'm with now, one of two things would happen:

A: You would decline.

B: You would take over-not because you are an egomaniac, but because your knowledge and professionalism (sorry) gives you an edge over the others.

The reality of the situation is that my area is choc-full of musicians, 95% of which don't understand the finer points of entertainment. They would watch many of you perform and stand there in awe, mouths hanging open. However, when it comes to "taking their craft to the next level", they fall short, no so much due to lack of ability, but more so, due to lack of willingness.

SO, where do you draw the line? At what point do you say "These guys aren't on my level".
What choice would you make when faced with the decision of either playing beneath your ability or not performing in public?

I really would like to read your thoughts on this, because it's a decision I deal with every day...

My situation is different than many on this forum … I’m a hired gun, I don’t play in one band. So I’m playing with Pro’s most of the time and with some new players that are trying to break into the hire gun scene.

Sometimes I just a hire player, I keep my head down and play my part the we the artist wants. Have stage presents but not be the center of attention.

Sometime I am the musical director (MD), like with Mystic Bowie that I’m about to go on tour with .. I’ll use this as an example.

I’ve played with 2 of the players, this past summer with Mystic, I was just a pick-up player, not the MD. The bass player was killer and guitar player was OK and the drummer sucked. He got fired. If players are not prepared … they get fired

This past Monday at rehearsal the first take on the first song was ruff but it was a difficult song. I stop the song and jumped on everyone a bit and worked out what was needed to make it work.

Take 2 things started to gel, but the guitarist was not playing his cues (it was an answer / call thing between the guit and horns … I stopped the song again told him that he had to have the cue in there. He quickly got the part down and the band smoked the song.

The rest of the day 30 songs were wicked with the exception of some minor arrangement changes and the guitar player not learning his parts. It went so well (besides the guit player) that I canceled Thursday practice and we’ll just have a run though before the show on Friday. I had a talk to the guit player and told him to pull up his socks and learn his parts .. or else. I won’t be asking him back for the next tour … there’s just to many pro guit player around … they’re a dime a dozen.

My expectation are very high if you call yourself a Pro’s, having the chops goes without saying, have a good ear that hears what is needed to make the song work and a heads up attitude to see what the our player are doing and looking for cues so there are no train-wreaks, in control of your volume and to top it all off you have to have a good attitude and work ethic.

I also play in a band that is just for fun … they’re not the best of musicians, but I’ve known and played with them for many years and it’s for fun .. no pressure and not at all challenging for me but I try to get with them once a week … it’s like a boys night out.

I rarely decline on playing with others that don’t play at my level … people played with me when I didn’t play at their level and that’s how I got here, I just don’t put as much effort into it, or I try new thing (fall off a cliff). When playing with them, I tell them little things to watch for, how to listen, this is a big for me, ppl think their listening but they’re not and learn how to play in a band, which sound easy but it’s really not.

I don’t know how to answer you question as to whether to play with other that are not at you level … that’s your call ... I thinks Phil post kinda covers that.

Sorry for the long post ... I think I got carried away again

Ron

Everyone forgets one thing and its a word.

'Seasoned'.

Pro is paid. That's a dictionary term. It might mean a heck load to other people but that's what it means.

Seasoned Pro is a whole different kettle of fish to my mind.

Right now, I'm in the middle of cramming for 10 songs I've never heard in my life. Just found out about it last Weekend. We're backing a solo artist this Friday and Sunday. Her originals, and some R&B and Reggae songs. It's actually 13 in total, but I already know the Marley songs.

I'm working on this one right now. It's one of the covers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHXEE7Pi6iQ

Never in my life did I ever think I'd play a song like this. But that's part of being a professional. To welcome new challenges. If you listen real close, the guitaring is actually pretty cool.

I would say this Joseph. This is how I would personally handle a situation like that (which I kinda am right now). Get to the bottom of exactly what songs you're gonna play at your next practice. Then try to simplify each one. Don't get too hung up on being exact, just the basics. Sometimes it even means winging a solo on the fly here and there. Then show the rest of them just how professional YOU are. Prepare yourself first, and a lot of times the mentality spreads throughout the rest of the band. I don't care what anyone says, musicians are competitive and don't like being seen as a weak link. If they are professional, they'll work to catch up with you.

Secondly, whenever we have a situation that calls for more songs than we have, we find ways of dragging some songs out, or sometimes repeating songs, or the whole first set for the 3rd set. By that time, anyone who has been around for the first set usually isn't still around for a 3rd. Nobody is the wiser except for the band and the venue, and usually the venue could care less. The agreement never says that you can't repeat songs.

Everyone forgets one thing and its a word.

'Seasoned'.

Pro is paid. That's a dictionary term. It might mean a heck load to other people but that's what it means.

Seasoned Pro is a whole different kettle of fish to my mind.

Actually Chip ... Professional means

The word professional traditionally means a person who has obtained a degree in a professional field. Doctors, Engineers etc.

A professional musician use to be someone with a degree in music and up until the early part of last century, 1900's, most were classically trained, but that has change greatly since the 50's and Pro also came to be know as a person that was self-taught and played at a high level, early Jazz and Blues players .. but even alot of them were classically trained.

It's like I said .. being a pro in my neck of the woods means alot more than getting paid.

But .. as alway your milage may vary.

Ron

Man, I wish I'd have gotten that degree!

Everyone forgets one thing and its a word.

'Seasoned'.

Pro is paid. That's a dictionary term. It might mean a heck load to other people but that's what it means.

Seasoned Pro is a whole different kettle of fish to my mind.

That is all I'm saying. If you are going to be paid for a gig, you are a pro and deserve the respect as such. Oft times, legit musicians look down on rock and jazz musicians not realizing that they are pros and should be respected as pros. It doesn't matter if you play in a bar or in Carnegie Hall...if you are playing for an audience and you are receiving a check...you are professional grade. Now that being said some have more professionalism than others. Some have more experience than others. Some might have more education than others. Being pro means nothing if you aren't being paid for it

I fully and respectfully disagree.
Dictionary explanations aside. Professionalism is an attitude and or an attainment.
It is a way of conducting oneself with a respect for that which you endeavor in.
I am a professional nurse, educated, well practiced, and paid.
I am a professional Martial artist (warrior) I have never been paid to fight.
To teach yes, but not to fight. Though fight I have.
I am an amiture guitarest whom approches my craft and gigs as a warrior would. ( ruthlessly )
And I have been paid.
Does that make me a professional guitarest. No, IMO it does not.
When my skill on the fretboard matches that on the hospital floor or my knowlege of the art of war, then I will be a professional guitar player.

I play the blues and I'm running into people who think they don't need to rehearse. I end up not playing with those people. You might be able to pull off a New Year's eve gig but to go from five songs in two rehearsals to twenty or more that are polished and professional by New Year's might be a stretch, depending on the band members. I personally wouldn't do it. I've got a reputation to maintain and I know that there's going to be some songs that won't be professional enough for my standards. I want to know going in that ALL the tunes are kick-ass, especially for a New Year's Eve gig. The last thing I want is for a New Year's venue to be empty by midnight, it wouldn't bode well for future gigs there...

I fully and respectfully disagree.
Dictionary explanations aside. Professionalism is an attitude and or an attainment.
It is a way of conducting oneself with a respect for that which you endeavor in.
I am a professional nurse, educated, well practiced, and paid.
I am a professional Martial artist (warrior) I have never been paid to fight.
To teach yes, but not to fight. Though fight I have.
I am an amiture guitarest whom approches my craft and gigs as a warrior would. ( ruthlessly )
And I have been paid.
Does that make me a professional guitarest. No, IMO it does not.
When my skill on the fretboard matches that on the hospital floor or my knowlege of the art of war, then I will be a professional guitar player.

I don't disagree at all. All that I am saying is if you are a hard working musician and you are compensated you Have my respect as a professional musician. Now you can't change that. If I respect you as a professional musician I regard you in high esteem...period. As a professional, you know your limits and you are a warrior. If no one can respect you for that, that is them...it is not me. Now, if I were to meet you, I would not expect to hear Pat Matheny or Eddie Van Halen. But I would expect to hear the best kickass Sanshouheil on the planet. Afterall, I am not comparing professional musicians to brain surgeons. You know as well as I do that there are good nurses and there are bad nurses...heck there are good doctors and there are bad doctors. No matter how you look at them, they are professional. Now, am I right or wrong?

I am holding professional musicians to a standard. If you make money as a musician, you are a professional musician. Now, it is up to the musician to determine the degree or level of professionalism they want to exhibit. Being a professional and being an expert are not necessarily the same thing. Work with me for an hour and you will see what I mean.

Stop thinking that you are less than what you are.