United Kingdom

EEK!
Glen are you ok? We've talked on the phone pal. I've talked with Sentient too, (Chris).

Phil no worries man, you don't need to apologize on my behalf or on behalf of anyone in my view. I really love American people but as my late Mom said. "Better out than in" Right? Times is times, thats all there is to it. People get stressed over views and then views themselves become.......... Well over inflated.

Just a view after all and we are all entitled to them, doesn't mean I agree with it, it means its a view.

Glen if you've still got my number give me a call tomorrow sometime yeah? Even now if you want?

Mark it works though it can be cumbersome. But if something works and is cumbersome but yet works who would swap it? I remember some time ago them asking for the Health service to become privatized....

Oh boy my American friends. you think you have trouble now huh?

Call me Glen.

No Phil you get your history straight
1 Spanish have you noticed it is every where, even the election booths.
2 I wasn't attacking Mark ,I just don't want any part of their system, and don't ram it down my throat.
3 Any country that has strict gun control is a clear mark for political take over.
4. If you can't smoke a cig outside in a park you paid for , if you can't drink a beer in your own front yard. I can't help you . You are allready so wooped it is disgusting.
5. If I embarass you , Then Move , I hear England has a great health care system. They might even be able to find a job for you that will support your family.
6 Don't bullshit me Man this is the Republic of the United States Of America.
We don't need people that are not going back the very principles this country was founded on.
7 If you go back on this I hope you see I was trying to avoid any personal attack on you...... You didn't. NEED I SAY MORE.

Hello Glen and Phil,
Until today I had always thought that the USA and Great Britain were two of the best countries on Earth.
Now I have to learn that one is utterly fantastic and full of fine brave souls, while the other is pretty crap and peopled but spineless wimps!
Which is which, needs hardly to be pointed out does it Glen?

Nor was I in the least bit offended by Glen's spiel Phil, though it shows something of the temperament and insight of an artist or musician that you care enough to feel embarrassed by Glen's rather struggled description of what makes the USA better than all the rest!

Sure sure... if we could just pursuade everyone on Earth to sit behind their front door with a sub machine gun the world would be a far safer place... because we would all be too sh*t scared to go outside! But would we really be more FREE?
Is it really the brave and free who like to hold guns... or really just people who are afraid of their own shadows?

But thanks for a spirited cross pond debate guys,
Mark...............

Mark , you are really ,one ,cool headed, eloquent, dude. God bless. We may not see things the same way.[I don't hide behind any door with a machine gun in hand] . Please just understand , some of our politicians have reached a point were they think tax dollars are limitless. We have become the highest taxed country in the world. To put in place a healthcare system is going to bankrupt this country.
YOU GUYS READY TO BAIL US OUT.

Oh by the way we [I] have many customers that fled stallin , HE butchered 50 t0 60 MILLION innocent people. Somehow history has overlooked this.
ALL of them say " if I only had a gun" . Pretty sad.

Glen - Well, while I'll admit that I jumped on your case, I really don't think it was unwarranted. I will apologise, though, cuz I like ya.

When someone asks about the customs of other places, you often jump in with that rabid attack mode about how everything anywhere else is wrong, or at least it looks that way to me, & it bugs me. Sorry, but it does. I generally like you in most every other way that I know of, but I don't like the way you represent us in these sorts of discussions when you start bragging about how no one would exist if it weren't for our intervention. We've gotten our fair share of help from other countries, too, hell, China is bailing us out right now...LOL

I think it's rather noble to try to make health care something that everyone may have, & it puzzles me when I hear ppl getting so up in arms about it. Why shouldn't we try to make it better for the good of all? Why would we want the crap we have now for the ppl in our country? It isnt good. It isn't helping anyone who doesn't have certain luxuries. When health care is a luxury, it can be taken away on a whim, even when you have taken the steps to get it, as my wife has.

It's like those idiots that try to convince me that driving is a priveledge. It ain't a priveledge out here, man. It's an absolute necessity if you're going to work, to pay your bills & taxes, to buy food & other necessities. You cannot survive here without it. But it's considered a "priveledge?" I suppose one can relocate, but I live HERE, I own property HERE, so it is not a priveledge to me. I will drive whether they say I can or no.

I've been making calls, going out looking for work, trying my best to do whatever I can to contribute, but the work isn't there right now. When my ears got infected, it busted me. I had to stop looking for awhile & take the time to heal. I'm not healed yet, but I'm taking the meds. Without the ins, it would have cost me $150 for the meds, which I do not have to spare. This is a horrible way to have to live, to decide whether to get meds or pay the mortgage. I don't have that particular prob yet, but there are many many ppl here that do. The ins cut the cost to just over $16.

You mentioned that we would have a higher income without the ins. That may be true, but we could not take that pay & buy the same quality of care that my wife gets through her job if we chose to do that. She's on meds that would cost us well over $1,200 a month if we were paying out of pocket, & the "savings" we would get from not getting the ins would not amount to that, Glen.

We need to completely restructure our priorities, if we are to survive economically. That means we need to spend less on the useless things we spend so much on, like the study of cow farts, or the war on drugs, or the costs of writing so many new laws that do nothing to improve our lot. If we did that, we'd go a long way toward reducing the corruption that is so rife in our system, & be able to take care of our ppl like a civilized country should.

Don't try to tell me that this is an anti-American sentiment. I firmly believe that the trying to improve our lot is something every American should work toward, & that the ppl who work against the improvements are quite the opposite of what we should be as citizens. The main thing we should try to maintain throughout, though, is that there are actual improvements, & that is something that has been lacking here for a few decades, as far as I can tell.

Btw, you cannot legally drink a beer in your own front yard in much of this country. There are laws against that sort of thing. It's called "drinking in public." It's against the law. You also cannot smoke a cigarette or pipe or cigar in many open areas in this country, Glen. "Think of the children," is one reason. The other is the fear of fires. The alcohol & tobacco nazis reign supreme in much of this country, & our ppl have encouraged these laws by not fighting back. Do you really think that they wrote the seat belt laws to protect the likes of YOU? HAH! They're written to protect the interests of the ins lobby.

I smoke where I want to, as long as it's outside, & say flook 'em all. I drink in my front yard whenever the urge strikes, & dare anyone to try to stop me. I also refuse to wear my seat belt, & if & when I get pulled over & ticketed for it, I'll refuse to pay the fine, because I will NOT allow my gov't to decide how I take care of myself, & I CERTAINLY won't allow them to tell me how to bet on my very life. (Knowing my luck, I'll fall into that 2% category that will better survive an accident without them!)

That's pretty much how I fight it all, Glen - with civil disobedience, the refusal to follow their unnecessary & unjust laws. I also speak out against them at every opportunity so that others will vote against the nazis that would rule our lives with me. And I consider myself a good American for doing it all. I will continue to refuse to follow any path I do not choose for myself, no matter what my gov't may say. I figure if they wanna control me then they can take care of me 100%, in jail, & I won't be cooperating very much there, either.

Hello Glen and Phil,
I had no idea there was a law that stops you drinking in public across the pond; here I believe it is legal to walk along the street with a can of beer... though I admit it always looks to me like you are a bit of a waster, and probably doing it to impress... which may not be the case.

If there is an average American and an average Brit, I would say that the average American seems rather more eager to dish it out, but equally less eager and able to take it in return.

Since I joined this site a year or two back, I have learned that my American cousins tend to get very prickly very quickly... and over almost anything, as if there is one ginormous chip dovetailed into their collective shoulder.
Perhaps with our British reserve we just don't have the national passion of the States.
Perhaps with our semi socialist government, we are all too well looked after and mollycoddled to have the fire in our bellies.

By the way cousins:
Thinking of Thanksgiving, and the arrival of the Pilgrim Fathers on the Mayflower?
Well I read in our local history just recently, that the first sermon was preached in Virginia America 12 years before the Mayflower arrived, and it was the vicar of my town Heathfield (then still a village) who sailed across there and did it.

I gather he liked to put it about a bit, so a few of you could be related to him!
No I admit I made the last bit up... though he probably did.
Mark...................

My wife is related to that guy, Mark.

I see your point about the pricklyness, though. I wonder why that is.

Many of our ppl often seem overly sensitive about anything American or anti-so, & either can't see good qualities elsewhere, or are extremely wary of them to the point of irrational phobia.

The thing that amazes me many about my brethren, though, is that urge not only to be "the best," but to continue to proclaim it ad nauseum as if it were our national mantra or a Nationalized Tourette Syndrome tic. That embarasses me to no end, & I'm sure other ppl get tired of hearing it. It seems we often cannot have discourse with others without reminding them of our great status. If I worked with someone who constantly reminded me of how wonderful & fabulous & great he was, it would annoy me until I killed him just to get through the frikken day, if I couldn't just completely ignore him & everything he has to offer in the workplace.

Eh, I hope that someday we quit looking at our very existence as if it were a contest or something, & begin once again to adapt in the changing world by adopting "the best" parts of other places into our own culture, rather than dismissing them offhand due to their non-Americanism.

I've actually had ppl tell me that I am anti-American for not joining in & hollering about how great we are. All I can do is roll my eyes, or blush in embarassment at the antics of my countrymen sometimes...

In the state of MD, you will be arrested for drinking where children can see you in public, even on your own property, front yard or back. I know ppl who were arrested for using a beer can for an ash tray, on the assumption that they were drinking in public, or promoting it. (They DID get off, though, once it was determined that they weren't actually drinking.) Many other areas have similar laws, either state-wide or locally. My county here in WV has a law like that, too. Many public parks have no-smoking signs, & in some areas it's a state law. Yeah, Glen, I'd say that we ARE wooped as a ppl in lots of ways. You aren't even allowed to smoke in your own car in many state & municipal parking lots!

Just think how much it cost to have those stupid laws passed, too.

Right, Right , Right ! I Really am a pain in the ass, aren't I?

BY GUM THEMS FIGHTEN WORDS !!!


The GREATIST thing about America is if you dont like it here, if you dont feel it's worth fighting for, or about.
Your free (and encouraged) to leave.
We argue about everything. It's the basis of our form of government.

Long live the freakin argument !!

Hello Sans,
It always sounds like the option if you don't like the way things are then leave; but in reality it is rarely an option for most, nor what you feel inclined to do.
If you live somewhere it becomes your bit of turf and you want to fight for it... not think, hey shall I just pack my life into a suitcase and move to Guatamala or wherever?

There seems from my rather distant viewpoint, to be a general fear of the notion of change in the States... is that observation fair?

Mark.................

Yes Mark it is fair. And not just the "States". We as humans in general are creatures of habit. Some good some not. Many fear change. Many more fear the unknown that change can represent.
I fear we may throw the baby out with the bath, if you'll forgive the colloquialism.
Been my experience and indicated much through the study of history that all too often when we "change" for the sake of change, its a clusterfuck.

Hi Sans,
I am scrabbling through the Oxford English Dictionary to see what Clusterfuck means!
I love the sound of it.

Yes human nature always shies away from change; I wondered though if it was slightly more an American thing; born out of perhaps the belief that things in the States are already more right than the rest of the world... so why are they being changed?

In England we are still catching up with you: where you say you "Throw the baby out with the bath"; we only throw it out with the bath-water, and keep hold of the bath for future use...

But do you mean that a health system for all is change for change's sake Sans?
Can not the wealthy still have extra insurance and access to nicer hospitals if they want it... it might suit them well to go to a state hospital for some simple procedure, or check into luxury for a longer stay?

I think ten years from now people will wonder what all the fuss was about.
And if it works as well or even better than the British system you might even find you like it!
Good wishes across the wet bit.
Mark................

In Glen's defense, I will try to answer that, Mark.

See, in America, we must fear the changes, mostly because of our American Congress, who are bound by their owners (see "big corporations") to make things "fair" for big companies at the expense of the ppl. There are going to be so many loopholes in any change that's made, hidden in so many words of legalese that no one can understand, that any change made is likely to be either questionable or downright horrible for the health & well-being of the populace. In addition, they will likely add into it so much extraneous crap that has nothing whatsoever to do with health care that it will end up costing us much in the way of freedom, not to mention extra taxes.

It's the American way. The gov't will likely add a "sin tax" to anyone who refuses to see a gov't-approved Dr every 6 months, or who smoke, or who drink, or who might be 2 pounds over the gov't-approved weight scale, etc, to justify the extra care that they wil require, according to the statistics (we're quite statistic-mad over here). I mean, why in the world should we pay for the care for someone who doesn't take care of themselves? (Nevermind that it was the GOV'T who told us that smoking was okay for so many years, or that it's the GOV'T who passes out fat-producing processed foods to the poor.) There is likely to be a sliding scale sin-tax on us all if we leave it to the powers that be, & they will then begin to write laws to cover all the little extras that they left out of the bill, so that they may continue to control us in the name of our health. After all, isn't taking care of the ppl what the gov't is supposed to do? Nevermind freedom! Ppl must be protected from themselves & controlled with a tight leash so that we can justify the rising costs. Also, our gov't will have so much additional information on us that they will be able to arrest &/or fine heavilly anyone with THC in their system, or any other illegal substance. It would be the ultimate weapon in the war against drugs, wouldn't it? Not to mention any of the other nasty habits that ppl may have.

I can definitely see Glen's point of view in all of this. I still want health care, though, just perhaps not in the usual "American way!"

Mark
Being a nurse I can tell you we already have a healthcare system for everyone. A very high percentage of those seen in hospitals especially ERs have no pay source and far to many any intent to pay at all. The hospitals (not all but most) cannot refuse to provide care.
It's not perfect by any means. For instance, my wife's new job will provide insurance for her and her family for $800.00 a month.
That would be nearly a full fifth of her "take home pay".
I truly believe our government intends to turn that greed into their own profits. To simply steal it away from the other theaves.
They have no good intent in their hearts.
Only greed.
I have much experience with "government run health care" Medicare Medicade and the VA. And I can tell you that the corruption runs rampant.
I have worked for Ten years in a rehab that get the majority of it's reimbursement from the government. The charts are full of lies and fraud. No one is watching the check book. NO ONE !
I dont know what the answer is. But I know putting peoples lives and well being into the hands of beaurocrats whom take no resposibility for anything that may go wrong is NOT a good idea.