General Music Chat

I agree with you 150% Bob that is the trouble with some Americans today they don't have the stomach to fight or much less win a war. Some of the comments on here that I have read today coming from Americans makes me sick. I suppose those same people believe that Hassan is not a terrorist either after Shouting Allah Akbar and then shooting as many of our fighting personell as he could. That Son Of A Bitch should be put in front of a firing squad and shot with as many bullets dipped in pigs blood as they can shoot him with in my opinion. I just erased a lot of what I was going to post because it would have pissed a bunch of people off that I have respect for on a musical level.
(biting my tounge)

Sorry, but I couldn't disagree with you, bob, & you, JH, any more than I do.

Does this REALLY look like a war to you? We haven't had the stomach for war since the end of WWII. Nowadays it's the never-ending pansy-assed police action, remember? War? Pffft! Of course the result is that we lose valuable ppl for NO F*CKING GAIN WHATSOEVER!

We haven't won a damned thing since 1945. Look at the facts.

We declared this "war" to be won back in '02, as I recall. We should have released our war prisoners then, or held them accountable for their war crimes, but no, we didn't do that either, cuz our pres was an total idjit who had no clue what he was doing or saying over half the time. We ALL were lied to.

7 years is too goddamned long to hold ANYone for anything, without due process. I don't give a damn if you're an American or not. It looks pretty goddamned UNAmerican to me for us to do this to anyone at all.

Many of these ppl are being held on suspicion resulting from rumors spread by the enemy, guys.

Does that sound like "intelligent intelligence" to you? It doesn't to me. Try 'em. If they're innocent, get 'em back into some sort of real life if you can, cuz what we've done to these ppl stinks to high heaven.

You gonna lock up everyone who says they don't LIKE us? Wtf kinda country are we running here? I guess I'm gonna hafta go to jail too, eh? Cuz what I'm seeing makes me wanna puke! This is pure racist BS.

WTF are we gaining by holding ppl who are NOT terrorists? C'mon, guys! Send them back to their families.

I'd be the very 1st guy to say if there is a need for war then DO IT. But we have not. We've been playing babysitter to a buncha ppl who don't want or need our babysitting. Either go all WWII on 'em or stfu & go home, but do NOT tell me that what we're doing is by any stretch of the imagination the right thing. It simply is not. Holding any number of innocent ppl in the name of a nonexistent war shows me just how arrogant we've become, & yeah, it sickens me.

But you go ahead & wave your flag if you must, & delude yourselves that this is an okay thing to do cuz "all's fair in war." Just remember that it ISN'T A WAR!!!! If it were, we'd surely have won by now, & there'd be untold numbers of Iraqi & Afghani dead, but we would NOT have innocent ppl being held in prisons outside our borders for no damned reason.

Due process doesn't apply to war prisoners. And we ARE in a war, a DIFFERENT kind of war than we have ever been involved with before. Your definition of war is based on WWII and previous wars. The Western definition of war is finite. War in the Arab world is infinite. A fatwah is PERMANENT until the fatwah is revoked. It hasn't been revoked. Our enemy is still conspiring to hit us. Look at the terror attacks all over the globe. In Russia (Bislan elementary school attack and Moscow theatre attack)), India (Mumbai attacks), Lockerbie, Scotland, Bali bombings, innumerable attacks on Israel, Munich Olympic attack, 911, World Trade bombing in early 90's, Entebbe, war between Iraq and Iran, the list goes on and on and on. The Moslem hatred of Israel is just the centerpiece of worldwide terror. Everybody and anybody who is deemed an infidel is in their crosshairs. This is a completely different kind of war, one that we are not used to. There isn't a clear country or army that we can destroy and end the war. There are terrorists all over the world who need to be hunted down, individually if necessary, and liquidated. It's simple. It's black and white. There is NO negotiating with these fanatics. There is only death, either them or us, and I'd much rather go to their funeral than they go to mine...

Unfortunately the politicaly correct activist refuse to call this a war because it is not war by their definition as you already have stated. In war there is a thing called colateral damage and if we don't stop these terrorist the colateral damage will be on our soil as it was at Fort Hood and 911.

Here I must ask - what gov't are we at war with? What ppl?

Are we at war with the Iraqi gov't?

No, we helped them to get elected.

Are we at war with Afghanistan's gov't?

No. Once again, we helped them gain power, quite frankly.

Therefore, we are "at war" with neither the Iraqi or the Afghan gov't or ppl's. So what business do we have holding them as "prisoners of war?"

When we are "at war" with a religious faction, a small fraction of a religion, whether they declared it or we have, it still makes about as much sense as our war on drugs to me, when innocents are held without due process of law.

This is a police action. NOT a war. We are hunting down individuals, here, as we should. I fully agree with the hunting down & eradicating of the enemies of humanity everywhere. When we pick up someone who isn't involved, for whatever erroneous reason, however, we are solely responsible for that action. We made a mistake. It needs to be rectified long before 7 years have passed.

Yes, if we were involved in an actual war with an actual country, then we could call whoever we picked up a POW. That is not the case here. The rules of war do not apply. These are not POW's. They are ppl who have been arrested for suspicion of ilegal activities.

No arrestee should be held for more than 6 months without a day in court. It's inhuman. It isn't something that "the best country in the world" would do.

If we truly wanted to stop these terrorist activities, we would hold any country that hosts a terrorist accountable for their actions. Saudi Arabia would be given 6 months to turn over the ppl involved in an action or suffer the consequences of war. Same for Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, whoever. Force them to help with the police work, & follow it up with the fulfillment of the promise to wipe them out if they do not work for the betterment of humanity with us. That was the way war has worked in the past. Not this mamby-pamby police action crapola. If needs be, take on several countries in a given area, & hold them accountable for the actions of ppl crossing their borders willy-nilly, as they are wont to do.

Invade just one country with this return to proper policy, & I'd wager that the terrorist problems will be cut a good 80-90%.

Make 'em police their own damned selves, & work with us to solve the problems. There are no innocent gov'ts when these outlaws are allowed to roam free within their borders. We could do it if we hadn't become so wimpy that we refused true war for our citizens & the world at large.

Just make sure that you are clear in that this is an action for the ppl of the world, & not an attack on any given religion. When you are guilty of acts against the ppl of planet Earth, you pay, & pay dearly, as do your families, your friends, & your hosts. Nuff sed.

Philby the war is called JEEHAHD!

Well, YEEE-HAW let's have a JEE-HAWD!

LOL

Good one, JH!

We've known for years that there are terrorists camps in Pakistan, but have done nothing to address it. Why? Cuz we're scared? Cuz we worry about collateral damage?

If war is what these ppl want, let's give it to 'em. Start in Pakistan. Bomb the ever-loving hell out of the areas that we sus[ect are training camps. Then move on to the next.

Remember that nothing is sacred in war. Is the enemy in a mosque? Too bad. Bye-bye, mosque, if you can't persuade them to exit so we can kill them.

Do it right or don't bother. We must be as barbaric as the situation calls for in a war.

So, JH, am I still the liberal left wing politically correct woosy I sounded like earlier?

A good ole fashioned JEE-HAWD?

Who gots the shine?

Can we square dance?

And do not for-get the chicken..lol

Yes the chicken we caint forget it, we just caint, I'll chase it round the yard with my mullet blowin in the wind and key it and we can cook it up good Yaw!

As I indicated earlier, we agree more that we disagree.

However, consider the article posted above, the one from that exemplar of nonpartisanship, S.C. Senator, Lindsey Graham. That explains much just by being present in the thread. Our political system allows for many points of view and his point of view has to be taken into account because he is an actor in all of this, along with all the other Senators, Congress people, judges, etc... The wheels turn slowly because the system from its conception by the founders was designed to be deliberative and to force compromise. I'm speaking of the political system. That system is responsible for the seven years of which you speak.

Political decisions taken in the last administration for political reasons led down one invalid path. The invalidity was recognized by the courts and reversed as they said the executive acted where congress need to act. So congress at the request of the executive acted and came up with the next version of military tribunals. The issues of injustice remained in the new system created by political acts for political reasons, and were later recognized by the courts, causing additional issues, preventing the military tribunals from going forward, plus the fact that defense lawyers appointed by the military fought the process from within and to good effect. Good for them. The last administration moved on and in with the new, which wants to close Gitmo, despite Senator Graham's description of it as something akin to a resort in Cozumel.

So the new administration begins its process of deciding, what to do? You have hit on the issue at its heart. How to provide justice to those held there who committed no crimes. I ask you, (and I do not know the answer), what do we do with prisoners in our criminal justice system that we imprison incorrectly and unjustly for years now, once it is recognized they are not guilty? Do they have the right to sue? I suspect that they do not, as prosecutors were long ago given immunity for their acts at trial but the Supreme court but I digress.

Prosecutors always say they don't get it wrong but we all know they do get it wrong, A LOT. What to do now....???? This, I think, is the question which the new Justice department is wrestling with and the first step was the announcement of the New York Prosecutions. I would have preferred that they deal with the innocent they holding first but what would be the political repercussions of that? Consider the brouhaha that has been raised about trying them in New York. IMO, it is our politics, designed to force compromise and the current nature of political discourse,(designed to halt any progress in any direction), coupled with the bogus 24 X 7 new cycle that are warping everything that happens. You may have another take on that and I'll be glad to read it.

I'm a simple man. I like to keep things simple.

These ppl who have been wrongfully imprisoned for years need to be freed yesterday. Why should they, who are not even Americans, be forced to wade through an American legal process when 1) they weren't even on American soil when they were arrested, 2) they have broken no American law, & 3) they have already been illegally detained for so long?

My point is that the way we have been handling this "war" has been wrong on too many levels to list. We worry about collateral damage, yet create untold suffering with our methods on an individual basis. Our gov't was founded upon the basic rights of the individual. It seems to me that we have wandered so far from that premise that we are no longer "The United States of America."

So now these ppl are going to continue to wait for some sort of justice at the hands of the country that invaded theirs, because "we have rules of law to follow?" Where were these laws when these ppl were originally arrested? Why weren't they followed then, & why can't we address their immediate situations now?

If they weren't anti-American before, I'm fairly sure at this point that our actions have made them so...along with their families, their friends & their business associates.

We need to either declare a REAL war, or let the world court handle things, cuz this halfway method is truly anti-American in every way, whether or not you feel for these ppl on any level.

We need to be consitent in our dealings with everyone - both foreign & domestic - yet we are not. We cannot hold others to stipulations that we ourselves are not held to. And we cannot continue to treat them to a lower standard than we allow ourselves. We have overstepped our bounds as a nation, & we have often bragged that we will continue to do so, while holding to the notion that we are the best, so that gives us the right to do as we will.

Our might does not make us right.

You wanna solve this in an equitable fashion? I'd suggest that, if they are innocent, & since they have been detained in an American prison, that they should be paid an average American wage for the entire time of their detention, & they should also be released as soon as their innocense can be established. I also suggest that the process to establish guilt or innocense be begun immediately, with a promised date of deliberation issued, that should not be later than Jan 1st, 2010. In addition, there should be a letter of apology for them, letting them know that we have realized our error, & that we have tried our very best to handle their unfortunate situation as soon as we could.

From there, we should assure the world at large that we will follow the established way of dealing with disputes within the UN &/or world court.

We have gotten way too big for our britches, & we need an attitude adjustment.

Who say's they are wrongfully imprisoned how do you know Philby? This is the problem with the liberal point of view IMO you want everything to be fair for everyone all of the time. Unfortunately life is not fair. Remember the Japaneze that they rounded up after the bombing of Pearl Harbor the US government did the same thing back then trying to protect the American public. The problem is we don't know who or where the enemy is going to strike if the most recent events in Fort Hood don't prove that I don't know what will. How you can make the Americans your own kind the bad guy here Philby befuddles me. It seems to me you need to readjust your attitude toward the country that you live in. Things weren't fair for Daniel Pearl when the Jihadist chopped off his head for trying to help them, things weren't fair for the 300 plus hostages back in 1979 Iran, things weren't fair for the 3000 plus who lost their lives for simply going to work on 9/11 so do I give a damn about some enemy combatants being held in Gitmo, Hell No, they can stay there till hell freezes over as far as I am concerned. I care what happens to my fellow countryman including you Philby. This the greatest Country in the world ain't perfect but I believe we are doing the best we can and yes our standard of living may not be as high as the other countries that are staying neutral and waiting for the UN to do nothing, while we help people to the point of destroying our own economy and freedoms.