General Music Chat

I find that I'm really alarmed at the prejudice I so often see here.

Every time the subject of Islam comes up, it becomes a veritable hate-fest, with ppl making the most outrageous claims.

I think it's entirely possible, nay, probable, that, other than this guy's being picked on for his personal choices, his religion had nothing whatsoever to do with his actions.

For ppl who clsim to be so spiritual & knowledgeable, some of us sure seem kinda small-minded, imho.

This was clearly not a religious "strike".

Not in the conventional sense. But, in effect it was. IT WAS religiously motivated. This is OBVIOUS if you just think it through well.

Get inside this guys head for a moment...

He is a Mulsim, in the service of the Army of a Christian Nation (long held view of us) and this did not set him at ODDS to a huge degree, as long as he wasn't put in a position where he may have to kill another Muslim. Suddenly he is to be deployed ther, where HE MAY have to make that decision one day. He is a life-long Muslim with parents born in Palestine, so he is even more-so in the middle of a hornet's nest, since Palestine/Israli conflict is one of the longest and most volatile conflicts we are indirectly involved with, by our support of Israel. Palestinians are angry, feeling displaced, or that they should have more land be conceded to them. Additionally, his parents did not want him to join the American military.

He is now, violating his faith (to some), violating his parent's wishes, and literally working FOR THE AGGRESSORS. I think, because he was born here, he wanted to serve his country initially. I think he wanted to find a balance between these worlds, and make it work. In the end, he saw a choice coming, that COULD NOT be avoided. Continue serving America, or serve Islam.

He chose Islam.

This is not about racial comments. The Military was founded upon those, for all intents and purposes. They disparage race, religions, they were the first real integrated part of government. Blacks were called the "N" word, and yet did not massacre innocent people. Japanese were put into internment camps, DURING THE WAR AGAINST THEIR HOMELAND and did not get a weapon and mass murder. They took the abuses, while fighting for their rights in other ways. They did not resort to murder.

Look at this objectively.

HE KNEW a choice was coming... WHO ARE YOU REALLY LOYAL TO? And he chose his oaths to Islam over his oaths to the Army and America.

He was not afraid of fighting or being killed, because there, this was only a POSSIBILITY, whereas his actions at Ft. Hood WERE GUANRANTEED. He knew this. He expected to die. He wanted to go out a hero, and be guaranteed his 72 virgins in Heaven. After all, he was never married, and had been having trouble finding a bride, even when he altered his birthplace to Palestine (his parents were born there, and not him) and STILL no takers.

ALL THIS, factored into his decision.

This act, guaranteed him vengeance and fame and uburdened the conflict he felt, and guaranteed him what he could not get here... a wife. He would get 72 of them now. Be praised among Palestinians, etc...

He did not WANT this way.

He felt it was the BEST WAY for him to go.

He didn't feel a choice.

He couldn't give up his religion, for the sake of his birth country, and THAT is what he felt he was being forced into. He couldn't get a wife as it was, what happens when he has to kill other Muslims? How will he ever get a wife then? He's a life-long Muslim, how will they respect him then?

He made what seemed the best choice for him.

He had to kill, to be a hero and guarantee death, and a happy life with 72 virgins and a heroes rememberence.

His parents would be proud of him from Heaven then.

Timmy McVeigh - was a terrorist, and a christian, so are all christians suspect of terrorism?

Yes Timothy McVeigh was a terrorist.

But he committed his actions because of POLITICAL motivations, not religious ones.

This was RELIGIOUSLY motivated.

But you could call it an act of war, rather than a terrorist act. I wouldn't have a problem with that.

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If this was religiously motivated then how do you account for the hundreds of injured or killed children in schools via madmen, idiots with guns in malls mowing down total strangers.....

Oh year the street wars. That's all they are after all.

Nah there is something deeper going on here. You can SMELL it on people these days and its akin to fear but then not so.

Notice how, on this thread, it's the uber-religous people who are so quick to point the blame at another religion.

I find that to be a really weird commentary... I'm not quite sure what to make of it.

Well that's religous for you ...

Well, Craig, all that fits perfectly in line with your usual diatribe against these ppl, but I don't agree with your assessments, as usual.

He was being berated by his fellow solduers for being a camel humper, or somesuch. I'm sure he heard all the lovely descriptions we've made up for them.

Face it, man, he just boiled over. He was simply a loose cannon who went off, & those who should have & could have prevented it, did not, probably because of their own prejudices, but I'm only guessing, there.

The "christian nation" view of us was STARTED by us, Craig, when our beloved leaders made it so by pandering to the under-educated religious right. It's only been in the last 60 years that we've had this dubious label, & started when Kennedy's campaign was rife with Catholic references by his opponent, who was a frikken Quaker, supposedly. It fully blossomed & fruited with GWB, but had been growing throughout the Carter & Reagan years onward.

There are any number of reasons that this man wouldn't want to go to Iraq or Afganistan.

Consider how they treat prisoners of war who supposedly share their faith, Craig.

Consider that he was opposed to the war for a lot of reasons, not the least of which being his religious beliefs, if you must. Still, the bottom line is that he attacked his fellow countrymen in very similar ways to the boys at Columbine, more than Tim McVeigh or Ted Kaszinski. I would think he'd have planned it all out a bit better if he were going to make a religious statement, & hit the infidels with a much bigger statement than a mere score of dead & wounded, if he were truly looking for his 72 virgins in the hereafter.

I still maintain that he was responding to bullies when he fired those shots, & the similarity between his actions & Columbine's would seem to bear me out a bit.

No, this action was on a far more personal level than a religious one, Craig.

Your words, however, show a closed-mindedness that prove my assertion that you are continually motivated by fear against the entire Islamic faith.

I would have fought like hell to stay out of a war that I disagreed with on so many levels, too, Craig, & I am neither moslem nor christian. If my head was in a similar place, I could just as easilly go off like that, but it would NOT be religiously motivated. Haven't you even considered that a lot of ppl have serious issues with these wars? That they would fight to stay out of them? That someone with serious mental problems could react like this without the backdrop of his religion being in the forefront?

Remember the Viet Nam War years, when students were blowing up their colleges? Those weren't moslems looking to attack christianity, either.

This was just a stupid sick man, imo, lashing out like the kids at Columbine.

As he gets debriefed, I'm sure we'll all hear as much or more than we can stand about it all, but to automatically make your assumptions is pure racial bigotry, & it's time you started to look at yourself & see it for what it is.

If this was religiously motivated then how do you account for the hundreds of injured or killed children in schools via madmen, idiots with guns in malls mowing down total strangers.....

Oh year the street wars. That's all they are after all.

There are MANY problems in the world, and in the hearts of people Chippy. People kill for all manner of reasons. I don't think Islam is a plague on the world. It is of great concern to me, primarily for the EXTREMIST elements of Islam, which are HEAVILY FINANCED and WILL OBTAIN (if they haven't already) and Nuclear weapon, and when they have the opening, they WILL set it off. Nuclear experts believe it is not a matter of "IF" but "WHEN" a nuclear weapon is set off by terrorists.

Quite clearly, a nuclear device has the potential to kill tens of thousands, if not millions of people, whether from the initial strike or slower death from radiation poisoning. Islamic extremists WANT to kill us. They WANT to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth.

After the Soviet Union broke apart, there were nuclear materials "missing" or "unaccounted for" and now, Russia is something of a mafia state, where it is fully possible that materials can or are, still being smuggled out. Osama bin Laden warned that something was coming, that would dwarf 9/11. I don't think it is a loose threat without merit.

THIS is my concern with Islam.

Who else, what other group, does anyone know, that has the madness, financing and desire to set of a nuclear weapon in this country? North Korea? No. China? No. Small cult groups? No.

Find me anyone else who COULD and WOULD pull this off, given a chance.

Nah there is something deeper going on here. You can SMELL it on people these days and its akin to fear but then not so.

Yes Chippy.

I have been warning people for a few months now, that chaos is occuring and will worsen. People are acting DIFFERENTLY than they normally would. It is a SPIRITUAL phenomenon, and not merely because of the economy. We have had recessions before. We have had many wars before.

It is the LAST DAYS.

We are on the cusp of a NEW AGE.

The evil of the old age will not give way willingly.

Again... God told me that the world would endure serious events over the next 3 years, with each year getting progressively worse than the one before.

Major conflict will occur. Natural disasters. War. Famine. And death, on an unprecedented scale.

It will be our wake-up call.

It will humble us, into submission, to FINALLY realize on a grand scale, that we are a HUMAN SPECIES and not merely races and nationalities and religious differences. WE MUST bond together for the common good and SURVIVAL of our species, as the planet's resources dwindle and population explodes. Selfish interests, like corporations, the wealthy elite, power mongers, secret societies and underground governments, etc... They DO NOT want to relinquish power for the common good. They would prefer helping to KILL millions of poor, than feeding them and sharing resources.

But the age dawns when it is time.

They will not win.

But it will be a bloody mess, prying their hands off the reigns, and changing the hearts of the masses.

Those days are VERY near.

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Actually, Craig, it IS the small splinter groups that we are fighting. NOT the nation of islam.

Phil,

I read everything you wrote.

But...

You do not understand religious motivations very well. Particularly EXTREME religious views, and what it does to your psyche. I belonged to a cult at one time and saw this first hand. When I went to college after I got out of this cult, I studied psychology as a direct result, to better understand how the mind works, and how VERY INTELLIGENT and NORMAL people, get caught up in religious fervor to the point that it molds their worldview through a very strict prism, and allows them to be subject to the effects of forms of mind control, by entering a dissociative state of being, and controls their actions to a large degree.

Because I developed a world-renowned website to help others understand these things, and was interviewed worlwide by the major media, I have met and consulted with world experts on these matters. People with PHD's in psychological fields who are experts on mental disorders, mind control, cultism, etc...

It is SHOCKING how an ordinarily normal person, through subtle mind control techniques, religious or political fervor, peer pressure, desire to conform, etc... When these things work together... IT IS HIGHLY DANGEROUS!

It is how the Holocaust occurred.

It is why extreme cults can strip people from their families and turn them into virtual robots, whose primary value system is based almost solely on the group's worldview.

It is why Japanese Kamikaze pilots are possible.

Why suicide bombers are possible.

You claimed that his reasoning was "personal" and not "religious".

That statement shows your dustance from this issue.

RELIGION "IS" PERSONAL.

And misused or with various elements that I discussed above, it can be MORE PERSONAL than the natural instinct for self-preservation.

You need to be able to STEP INSIDE this mindset, and try and see it from THEIR understanding to truly make sense of that reality.

It is FOREIGN to you, because you have not intensely studied it, and have not experienced it.

Looking from the outside, most people would ASSUME that people who join cults or extremist groups, must be WEAK or have MENTAL DEFECTS or UNEDUCATED, etc... And they assume "That could never happen to me"

When the OPPOSITE is true.

These people are often college educated, smart, balanced, normal, and just like the person down the street, that you would never assume could get caught up in something like that.

Anyone is vulnerable to the subtle techniques of mind control, and also societal pressures, conformity, etc.. more so than you would ever imagine.

These are facts.

Many studies have been done bearing this out.

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Actually, Craig, it IS the small splinter groups that we are fighting. NOT the nation of islam.

Yeah.

Why do I keep getting misunderstood on this?

Haven't I said that God inspired parts of Islam? Haven't I said that ALL religions teach "truth" including Christianity, and that WE NEED TO LEARN from one another? That they all have PIECES of the truth, but not a cohesive whole, individually?

I have even said, that I suspect that Islam is right, that it was Ishmael and NOT Isaac which was the son offered for sacrifice on Mount Moriah by Abraham.

I mean seriously.

Can anyone READ what I write, and take what I say at face value regarding what MY beliefs are?

Give me a break here.

That is dishonest.

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Perhaps you're right, but if so then I think it's time we started looking for those radical groups that this guy belonged to, Craig.

The mainstream moslem does not do these things any more than the mainstream christian. Nor do they condone such activities.

I still don't agree with you in any way on this, & think you are letting your feelings about the religion as a whole color your every other thought when it comes to ppl of this faith.

The facts just don't add up for me. Were his parents fanatics who shot ppl, too? No. His siblings, if he has any?

You just can't seem to look at them without seeing a potential suicide bomber or shootist, can you? Man, that just seems twisted to me.

I belonged to a cult at one time and saw this first hand.

From the way you talk, I'd say you never left...

You just can't seem to look at them without seeing a potential suicide bomber or shootist, can you? Man, that just seems twisted to me.

Lol... that conjured up this image in my head... having just seen this on HBO:

How Craig sees it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZSMmrFpb8Y&feature=related

I'm sorry to see where this thread has fallen to, the race thing.

What a travesty this was, just awful. I don't know what to say about it, sad.

Being a musician for 35 years I have come to know many races of musicians and thankfully I have always looked at them all as musicians and nothing more. Music has the ability to transcend race barriers if we let it.

EM

These are SEPARATE things to me.

This guy, and his parents, for all I know did not belong to any radical groups. In this case, it was a COMBINATION of things leading to this event, and not Islamic beliefs in and of themselves.

I labeled it terrorism when it was first saif that it was SEVERAL shooters.

His beliefs ABSOLUTELY figured into his decision on this, but not necessarily any more than Christianity factors into somethiing like bombing abortion clinics, or killing abortion doctors.

When the facts became clear that it was a LONE gunman. It became clear that his mental state combined with other things, led to this conclusion. It WAS primarily driven by his religious views, but NOT in the same way that extremists are actively working to destroy America and Israel and kill our citizens.

I am SEPARATING these two things in my own mind.

His RELIGIOUS VIEWS "DID" factor into this, but in the way that some professing Christians kill abortion doctors and believe themselves justified.

There is no evidence that this was in coordination with any group of extremists, or that it was planned out well in advance. It seems likely it was more spontaneous, however.... HIS STRONGLY HELD religious views, helped inform this decision.

The more strongly held someone's religiosity the more inflexible their responses to perceived threats against it. But Islam is not unique in this. ANYONE who applies such strictness to their religious or worldview, is at risk for making extreme decisions under pressure, that can cause great trauma to others.

Pro-life extremists have convinced themselves that abortion is murder, and so it is a logical and natural response, within that position, that the doctors performing them are murderers and that they are justified in "protecting" these lives, through killing the murderers. Suicide bombers go willingly to their deaths, because they believe God will reward them with 72 virgins in the afterlife.

Most often, these are PERVERSIONS of their own scriptures.

Again...

Islam is a greater threat, due to EXTREMISTS among them. That said, Islam DOES teach that the WORLD must be subjugated through FORCE and KILLING if necessary, until Islamic law is the law of the land, worldwide. Unlike other religions however, there are entire GOVERNMENTS (Like Iran) that profess these things and seek to uphold them.

Other than Islam, you will not find any other RELIGIOUS BASED governments, that seek the complete annihilation of an entire PEOPLE, and also uphold a teaching to CONQUER THE WORLD through force, in order to institute theocratic government worldwide.

Until Islam becomes more modernized and the power of the extremist control among them dimished and becomes a convincing minority, shouldn't this be of concern?

One day, the moderates will win out.

But that day is not yet come.

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I'm sorry to see where this thread has fallen to, the race thing.

What a travesty this was, just awful. I don't know what to say about it, sad.

Being a musician for 35 years I have come to know many races of musicians and thankfully I have always looked at them all as musicians and nothing more. Music has the ability to transcend race barriers if we let it.

EM

Thanks EM. Good words there. And I agree with you on the transcendant power of music. I also believe it can be a tremendously powerful force for good, across all boundaries.

But none of this was about race.




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