General Music Chat

mark all posts as read.

yeah - I'm with you on this one.

These:

“History are the lies we tell ourselves to make sense of the present”
Unattributed

“A person who sets out on the path of revenge should first dig two graves.” Confucius

"Posterity, you will never know how much it cost the present generation to preserve your freedom. I hope you will make good use of it. If you do not, I shall repent in heaven that ever I took half the pains to preserve it." - John Adams

Whats the Beatles song?

All You Need Is Love

I actually wrote a song called God Is Love a few years back in one of my heavy religious phases.

If everyone would treat their fellow human with love and respect, the whole human race would probably be better, so Craig in my own way I accept and believe in what you say. On the other hand Colors looks at this from a scientific angle that makes a lot of sense to me also.

If God loves me unconditionally, then why would he put me in hell in the first place/ The Bible teaches unconditional love, yet if I dont do what it tells me to do then Im going to burn in hell. Religion has a lot of catch 22s, if you really look at it from a third person point of view.

I think that most of us live a more balanced life with some sort of spiritual center.

Colors,

Our behaviors ALREADY ARE completely brain functions. Our bodies only function with a brain sending electrical impulses to nerves.

This does not explain our capacity to OVER-RIDE what our bodies would do naturally, and without something over-riding it.

You say that someone with a mental disposition toward pedophilia, has no free will. But this is clearly wrong. If it weren't then they would be committing these crimes out in the open, the moment they came upon a child. The fact that they can restrain themselves long enough to find a hidden place, so they might get away with the crime, shows that THEY CAN control and restrain themselves.

If I have no mental defects and yet you forced my arm to wave by strapping it to a pulley, have I lost my free will? I have lost the ability to have a choice about my arm moving or not. I have not lost "free will" itself. I have lost freedom in that particular area.

.

Colors,

Our behaviors ALREADY ARE completely brain functions. Our bodies only function with a brain sending electrical impulses to nerves.

You're almost there...

This does not explain our capacity to OVER-RIDE what our bodies would do naturally, and without something over-riding it.

That's because nothing "overrides" anything. That's where you're getting off track. But that's expected; your a Christian who believes in Free Will. You have to entertain the idea that Free Will doesn't exist before it makes sense.

You say that someone with a mental disposition toward pedophilia, has no free will. But this is clearly wrong.

Doesn't seem like it's "clearly wrong" to me. Seems like it makes total sense to me. Read on...

If it weren't then they would be committing these crimes out in the open,

You're either purposely ignoring what I wrote, or not comprehending it.

Remember, your brain is programmed. It is a complex machine that interprets instructions from the programming. It is not a simple machine.

One learns, throughout their life, that pedophilia is something that society doesn't tolerate. So that would be in the brain programming too. Now your brain has to deal with a complex set of instructions that clearly contradict themselves.

What happens when a computer is given contradictory instructions? Well, it depends on the input. A variety of outputs is possible given a variety of inputs. It isn't as simple as "see child" (input) always == "commit heinous act of pedophilia" (output). That's oversimplifying the machine to a ridiculous and unrealistic degree.

It's not a simple, black/white machine Craig. Your computer is complex. Don't simplify it.

The fact that they can restrain themselves long enough to find a hidden place, so they might get away with the crime, shows that THEY CAN control and restrain themselves.

No. What it shows is that they have some instructions in their programming that clearly have priority over other instructions, and so to achieve those priorities they have been programmed to act on their priorities (desires) in a way that is the most efficient and which will allow them (theoretically) the least chance of being caught. That's not willpower (if you believe in brain functions over free will) - that's just efficient programming.

Remember - complex machine. Your brain is calculating thousands of possibilities in a fraction of a second, and it's doing that all the time. It does that until a given set up inputs (means, motive, opportunity) allows for the results of a specific output.

This is programming 101.

If I have no mental defects and yet you forced my arm to wave by strapping it to a pulley, have I lost my free will?

A common straw man argument in this realm of moist robots; but it has nothing to do with your brain functions which affect your behavior. Keyword: YOUR behavior.

Your reaction (behavior) is what your programming controls. Your programming can't control anyone else's behavior, so it can't control the other person perform that act.

I have lost the ability to have a choice about my arm moving or not.I have not lost "free will" itself. I have lost freedom in that particular area.

And there you have just illustrated my point. That arm-argument has nothing to do with free will/brain functions. It's irrelevant.

Dang colors, you got that programming stuff down lol.

I've often wondered -

If "god has a plan" and everyone's destiny / fate is pre-determined, then why do we punish the rapists, pedophiles, murderers, thieves, etc?

Sure we have free-will, but god programmed the rapist to not be able to stop himself from raping anyways, right? Because the greater good is pre-determined.

So why will that guy go to hell, if god already created him to rape that woman so she would meet another person via counseling that sets off a chain of "greater good"??

The poor rapist never had a choice? He was destined by god's plan?

It all seems like a fatal flaw in christianity

The poor rapist never had a choice? He was destined by god's plan?

It all seems like a fatal flaw in christianity

Religion is a study in contradictions.

lol

If God loves me unconditionally, then why would he put me in hell in the first place/ The Bible teaches unconditional love, yet if I dont do what it tells me to do then Im going to burn in hell.

God doesn't do that.

As I mentioned in another thread. God would have to be committed because of a psychiatric disorder if He professed love and forgiveness, and yet created a place burning with some as-yet unknown "spiritual" fire, that doesn't actually burn you, but makes you feel as if you are burning, and then keeps you there for eternity in suffering, merely because you did not ACCEPT His love.

That version of God, is a bizarre freak that has NOTHING to do with Love.

THE TRUTH ABOUT HELL...

In ALMOST ALL of the passages of the New Testament where the word "Hell" is found, it is actually the Greek word "Hades" which is the real word used. This was a MISTAKE of biblical translators, who used the word interchangeably, and improperly. Hades simply means "grave", and has NOTHING to do with fire.

It is another Greek word "Gehenna" (also used as a substitute for the word "hell" sometimes) which has to do with FIRE.

GEHENNA, is an ACTUAL PLACE (unlike Hell) and was a GARBAGE DUMP, where garbage was BURNED on a daily basis. The descriptions in the Bible of fire never being quenched and worms eating their fill and seemingly never dying (because of the abundance of food) all have to do with this garbage dump.

The fire never dies, because thousand upon thousands of Jews were heaping NEW TRASH every day down the ravines, into this trash heap, so that it always had new fuel to burn. This is how they disposed of their trash, before modern sanitation systems. The smell was putrid and unspeakable, because food and refuse rotted without end, weeks and months, and burning it, sent the ash and smoke into the air and throughout the area. It was nasty and disgusting.

Jesus is trying to make His audience understand that GARBAGE, like the garbage in Gehenna, is useless for anything but BURNING UP to be rid of it. It stinks. It takes up space, and serves no purpose otherwise.

Jesus is telling these people that SPIRITUALLY, without God's love, THEY are like the rotting garbage of this dump... INSIDE... IN THEIR HEARTS. And they are similarly USELESS, as long as they continue in selfishness, and do not seek God, and love one another, as God loves us.

There are reasons both LOGICALLY and BIBLICALLY, to understand that this is major misunderstanding, about the nature of Hell and that God would actually create a place of eternal BURNING. Keep people alive, merely to TORTURE THEM!

Hell is a STATE OF BEING, just as DEATH is a state of being.

Hell is merely SEPARATION FROM GOD.

It is ETERNAL only in the sense that it is PERMANENT and UNCHANGING upon giving up your physical body.

And just as death will be destroyed, so too will Hell be.

Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.

Can Hell be cast into Hell?

Can "death" be placed somewhere?

This is a metaphor for the END of BOTH.

DEATH WILL BE DESTROYED (spiritual death)
HELL WILL BE DESTROYED (separation from God)

HEAVEN ON EARTH WILL COME, as Jesus prayed for it to come, and as we should pray for it to come.

One day the MANKIND WILL LIVE IN PEACE. With one another, and with God, and we aill be brought to a new level of understanding, and a permanent relationship with God, that people will grow up seeing all around them.

God has been guiding mankind into a higher spiritual state for thousands of years, and we are on the cusp, of a NEW AGE! But the old ways will not die willingly or easily, as the old seldom gives way to the new without a fight.

BUT IT IS COMING!

WE ARE IN THE FINAL HOURS OF THE DAWNING OF THIS NEW AGE!

.

The poor rapist never had a choice? He was destined by god's plan?

It all seems like a fatal flaw in christianity

Religion is a study in contradictions.

God knows everything you're ever going to do, and he KNOWS the choices you're going to make AHEAD of time, and then builds your life around those choices. Thus, we still have the power of free-will, but God is still in control of the final outcome of those choices.

So the rapist CHOSE to rape, but GOD chose for him to or to not get caught.

But what do I know? I'm just some KID, right?

But what do I know? I'm just some KID, right?

Your age is not a factor in my opinions of your ideas.

This particular discussion seems a bit outside your range, however.

. . . because I need some positive input, now . . .

I'll bet you never expected so many words from this simple post...

Yeah.

Hope your feelin more upbeat there RM .

Just a carrot from our friend RM who dangled it and we all went for it like a pack of hungry wolves.