General Music Chat

I'm not Jesus Mike.

I just love God. That's all I can say for myself.

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No, only Jesus was Jesus...but you claimed to be a prophet...well, you were tested, and found not to be a prophet. The prophets were given some of Gods abilities so that man will recognize them when they state their claim. I just wish I'd known you had moved to Florida, thought you still lived in GA at the time... my bad

Welcome back Rev.

Nothing... even science, has ALL the answers. And even though science is flawed, you believe much of what it states and concludes. THAT is "MY" problem with anti-religionists. They accept other FLAWED belief systems into their lives, why not one which is religious based?

In other words, because the Bible includes ancient mythology as part of it's teachings, or makes other mistakes, why cannot the GOOD found there, be accepted as such? Why does the baby have to be thrown out with the bathwater?

Science isn't really flawed, so much as "evolving" into pure logic- through proven and dis-proven theories, many of which are determined years later due to scientific advancements that shed new light onto old ground. And science also has a peer-review system that forces it to maintain a logical and factual approach towards truth and fact.

NOW.. the baby and the bathwater was a good analogy. While being agnostic myself, I have no qualms with religious people who take the GOOD and practice what they preach.

The issue I take with it are the religious who preach "good" and "peace" and "tolerance", but then turn around and say things like 'Kill all the rag head terrorists", and support hatred, racism, profiteering, and intervene with social issues such as how we choose to govern ourselves, what we do in our private lives, especially behind closed doors.

Now I'm all about your right to have religious freedoms and beliefs, and practice them, so long as it's a two way street, where I also have the freedom FROM religion and the practices that would seek to affect me.

The old argument that murder and crime, etc.. are all good vs. evil and religion exclusively holds those values is bullocks-

Social societies see those as civil values. Don;t cheat, steal, kill, etc.. are all values built into all humans and emulated into societies, regardless of religion(s).

Mostly I'm a live and let live kinda guy, or better said: Can't we all just get along?

Hehe

Well spoke Kramer. Science is never "done", it continuously examines and improves itself. It is not a perfect system, nothing humans do is. But it is the best method we have for describing and understanding our universe. Religion, on the other hand, does not examine itself; you must place "faith" in those who purport to know the answers based on texts that were written centuries ago.

You are among 2.1 billion others worldwide, about 26% of the world's population agree with you. Just keep in mind, your truth is not accepted by 74% of the world.

That doesn't mean my beliefs aren't true, that just means that 74% of the world is wrong.

According to the poll you're only 40% of this population.

Religion, on the other hand, does not examine itself.

That statement isn't accurate.

Reforms in religion occur, precisely because religious people "DO" examine themselves.

But these are vastly different realms of pursuit. Science is a pursuit for physical truths, whereas religion is a pursuit of spiritual truths. Man has a dual nature, physical and spiritual, and BOTH need to be satisfied, or we are lacking something.

Science and religion, MORE AND MORE, need one another.

Science is entering fields that ABSOLUTELY require some form of moral compass, or what stops it from nazi-style pursuits?

Religion needs science to help address physical realities, like technologies that improve farm production, and health, and protecting humanity from natural disasters both here, and from the universe.

If we are merely animals, then violence will rule, and logic, MEANING SCIENCE, will fail.

If we have no conscience, no greater purpose, and embrace that belief, watch what happens.

It is highly arrogant of atheists and agnostics for that matter, to trash religion, as if WORLD CONSCIENCE was a natural phenomenon that developed unassisted.

You take for granted, the teachings of "The Golden Rule" found among most of the world's religions, and many others, as if you would have always been "people of conscience" (whatever the term conscience can possibly mean to atheists, that is).

But history has not been this way.

And it is RELIGIOUS and SPIRITUAL forces, working through teachers, and seers and priests and pastors and others, that has changed it, and changed it for the better.

I have proven that RELIGION has had nothing to do with the majority of the world's wars and conflicts, but you will likely continue repeating this lie anyway.

You don't want to go back to a time when it was ROUTINE for strangers to rape your wives and sisters at the point of a blade merely because they could. Where you had no civil rights. Where you may have been having sex with your own mothers and sisters, where you had almost nothing resembling free will, etc.. etc...

Thank religious faith for ALL THOSE IMPROVEMENTS!

Thank Christianity in particular.


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And before I hear it...

Yes, some religions have done things like sacrificing humans, or other attrocities. Science has also brought attrocities, like Nazi Doctors experimenting on living human beings.

Misuse of ANYTHING leads to harm.

But OBVIOUSLY religion has done FAR MORE GOOD, than ill. (As has science)

But, without religious principles such as those found in Christianity, there would be no reason to believe that experimenting on living human beings was "wrong".

There would in fact be, no RIGHT or WRONG.

As these are MORAL distinctions, and not scientific ones.

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btw...


This thread has now surpassed the Introduction thread, both in replies and number of pages!



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Science and religion, MORE AND MORE, need one another.

Not really. Science is nothing more than finding mathematical and logical answers to questions. I don't think religion needs science to function or vice-versa, which is why since the birth of either, they are constantly at war with each others' ideals. Sure, there's room for peace between them, but anyone who takes something to the right or left of center will undoubtedly cause more war than peace. This applies to both science and religion. Personally, I'm all about the "Can't we all just get along" factor, but won't hesitate to step up when I feel my "freedom from religion" is being infringed upon.

If we are merely animals, then violence will rule, and logic, MEANING SCIENCE, will fail.

If we have no conscience, no greater purpose, and embrace that belief, watch what happens.

This is opinion, not fact. If it were true, all athiest meetings would be nothing but blinding violent free-for-all killing sprees. He with the most guns and best aim wins.

The simpler explanation is that people inherently are social creatures. We tend to rely on each other and also (before money) worked for the common good and common survival.

Society today is a molested version of what it once was and should now be. We can thank simple greed for that. It was money, power, etc.. but it all boils down simple and unfettered greed.

It is highly arrogant of atheists and agnostics for that matter, to trash religion, as if WORLD CONSCIENCE was a natural phenomenon that developed unassisted.

The flip side of that coin is that it's highly arrogant of religious people to assume they exclusively invented and hold all the cards on values.

You take for granted, the teachings of "The Golden Rule" found among most of the world's religions, and many others, as if you would have always been "people of conscience" (whatever the term conscience can possibly mean to atheists, that is).

If I say something mean to someone, I feel bad about it. If someone else says something mean to someone, they might NOT feel bad about it- So what does a religion have to do with that?? It's the "asshole factor".. simply put, we're all wired differently - not everyone in the world has a "good" conscience.. We're all shaped and crafted from birth, and our environment shapes as much of "who we are" as any wiring we have, which tends to our individual uniqueness. I often wonder if most people aren't really "good", which is a whole other debate.

I think you want that "world conscience" to be a fully religious-owned phenomena, and you can *believe* that, but you simply can't expect or force everyone else to believe it, just because you do. This taps well back into my ideal of "freedom from religion".

Think about this: Why is killing someone bad? Because we're built with the inherent "feeling" that it's wrong, and bad? Yes, and no. It's bad because you can't have people running around killing each other at a whim... it's NOT built into us (IMO), so much as learned as a societal factor- You need order, stability in a society, otherwise you just have chaos, and some societies have LESS order and stability, but by choice, and what do we do? Call them barbaric, inhuman, etc.. we completely fail to understand muslims and middle eastern religions and customs simply because of our intolerance to their societal structure. Look at just how much trouble that has caused for centuries.

I have proven that RELIGION has had nothing to do with the majority of the world's wars and conflicts, but you will likely continue repeating this lie anyway.

As usual, money, politics, and intolerance, racism, bigotry has been the cause of most wars, yes.

But what about most genocides?

The armenian genocide, the spanish inquisition, countless others, all based on religious intolerance.

You don't want to go back to a time when it was ROUTINE for strangers to rape your wives and sisters at the point of a blade merely because they could. Where you had no civil rights. Where you may have been having sex with your own mothers and sisters, where you had almost nothing resembling free will, etc.. etc...

Thank religious faith for ALL THOSE IMPROVEMENTS!

Thank Christianity in particular.


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Actually you are comparing barbarian and viking days to modern times, apples to oranges. You may not see it, but you are openly attacking athiests and agnostics with these declarations and presumptions - stating them as fact, as if you turn a few athiests loose, that their first order of business would be to rape, loot, kill, pillage, etc..

Which is exactly what the christians have done throughout history-

See how that feels?

HEY GUYS! JESUS LOVES YOU! SO SHUT UP!

Just kidding...Sorry, just had to

HEY GUYS! JESUS LOVES YOU! SO SHUT UP!

Just kidding...Sorry, just had to

LOL


Hey Ryan,

I was playing with an idea for a song, and I think some screaming would work well for it in a few places. Would you be game to add something to it sometime? I'd have to pay to have you go into a studio, unless you could record cleanly enough in some other way?

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Everyone is always speaking about "the golden rule" and how it transcends all religions...well think about this; yes, for the most part, humans have decided that killing other humans is wrong...that is, until someone pisses them off enough that they think that someone deserves to die...for example...killing is wrong, so a man commits a murder...now, what he did was wrong, so why is it then ok for the state to execute him for his crime? Isn't killing wrong? Men have hidden behind the facade that we all know that killing is wrong, however it is more accurate to say that we believe killing to be one of the many tools in our arsenal. If religious people truly believed in the things they say are their truth, then there would not be war. A true believer, someone who really believes in the golden rule, could not and would not kill for any reason.

You don't want to go back to a time when it was ROUTINE for strangers to rape your wives and sisters at the point of a blade merely because they could. Where you had no civil rights. Where you may have been having sex with your own mothers and sisters, where you had almost nothing resembling free will, etc.. etc...

Thank religious faith for ALL THOSE IMPROVEMENTS!

Thank Christianity in particular.

The imposition of Christianity on Europe was called the dark ages for a reason...

A true believer, someone who really believes in the golden rule, could not and would not kill for any reason.

Most people, including myself, differentiate between "killing" and "murder". Most cultures and most religions accept the former in situations of self defense, for example. And there are other reasons which would also be applicable to this.

Personally, I am against capital punishment in most cases, unless DNA evidence or other conclusive-type evidence is present.

If you have a mass-murderer for example, who has a mental defect, such as psychopathy and is likely to continue to murder, even iin prison, then Capital Punishment may very well be more humane than indefinite isolation, or the possibility that he may murder someone else, which would be inhumane to that prisoner. Until science advances, some people, due to mental defects or something else, may very well be, incurable. If that person is allowed to continue to inflict murder upon other people, whether free citizens or prisoners or guards who are at risk, and it is obvious that our laws have made a bad decision in taking such a risk, it could be said that we, are in effect co-conspirators, and guilty in our own right, of enabling his murders.

It's not as simple as any of us would have it to be. There are many variables, and sometimes, showing mercy to the wrong person, may very well be committing a worse crime against someone else... someone undeserving of such a fate.

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You don't want to go back to a time when it was ROUTINE for strangers to rape your wives and sisters at the point of a blade merely because they could. Where you had no civil rights. Where you may have been having sex with your own mothers and sisters, where you had almost nothing resembling free will, etc.. etc...

Thank religious faith for ALL THOSE IMPROVEMENTS!

Thank Christianity in particular.

The imposition of Christianity on Europe was called the dark ages for a reason...

I think I mentioned already, that ANYTHING can be misused and cause harm. History bears out that Christianity has had a far more beneficial influence on society than a deleterious one. The same can be said for America itself. We've made mistakes, but we have been more of a light to this world, than a shadow. The same can be said of other things, including ourselves possibly.

It is also unfair to punish a religion's teachings, when they are not followed. Nothing in the New Testament, supports torture of non-believers. This is like blaming the Drano company for wrongful death, because someone drank the Drano, rather than pouring it down the sink, because they refused to follow the instructions correctly.

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