General Music Chat

Now miracles have ceased

Show me ANY verse in the Bible that states that God no longer peforms miracles!

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No problem. For the 3rd time (I guess you aren't reading my posts)
I cor 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

The fact that miracles are not performed today can be seen in the way in which miraculous power was bestowed in the first century. The New Testament reveals two means by which miraculous power was bestowed upon men; the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and the laying on of hands by the apostles. The apostles were promised the Holy Spirit (Lk. 24:49; Ac. 1:1-5) and received Him with power on Pentecost (Ac. 2). Of course the apostle Paul, as a special chosen apostle, also received the Holy Spirit (Ac. 9:17; Gal. 1:11-12). To show God's acceptance of the Gentiles, Cornelius and his household received the Holy Spirit (Ac. 10:44-47; 11:15-18). This was the last New Testament occurrence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit (being in the late 30's, early 40's A.D.).

That note he lefty is the ONLY reason you know about him.

Absolutely untrue. For you to suggest this, says more things than you could possibly realize...


1) Illiterate people cannot know God.
2) Primitive peoples in jungles cannot know God.
3) No one knew about God until there was written text. But somehow God INSPIRED others directly, in order for them to write these things down in the first place. So, this is contradictory.

Crazy talk Craig. It does not imply those things at all. Illiterate and primitive people find out about God and his will for us when people read the bible to them. It's still because of the bible that they know him.

What about deaf people? Who's reading to them?

Really Craig? I mean.... really? deaf people would, you know, read.

What about primitive people's in the jungles who have not even been discovered yet, and who have NO CONTACT with civilization as of yet. Not many years ago, a tribe was found like this. This has occurred from time to time.

You actually believe that God is going to sentence these people to BURNING in hellish fires (which don't actually burn them up... just gibe them the pain of burning for eternity)

God is going to sentence all those people to that kind of fate, merely because no one has read to them?

What if it then took months and years for their language to be learned, skillfully enough to print the Bible in their language? How many more thousands go to Hell, because of THAT little technicality?

What kind of God do you worship?

Wow!

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That's why we received the great commission. The bible also says (haven't found where yet) the end will not come until all living have heard the gospel.

He was under the old law and Christ saved him in person. He no longer does that.

So, you think the thief on Jesus right side was the LAST person to be saved by Jesus directly?

Paul came along AFTER Jesus' death, crucifixion and ressurection.

How is it then, that the thief was the last person that Jesus saved directly? And if Jesus is no longer saving people directly, then how are people saved?

By reading?

It's in the new testament. You must hear (John 6:45), believe (James 2:24), repent (Acts 2:38 ), confess (Romans 10:9), and be baptized (Mark 16:16) to obtain salvation now. If God came and spoke directly then fine. But he doesn't as miracles have ceased. I cor 13:8

And WHY are you sure Jesus cannot and will not save people directly? Who put that limitation on Him? You?

Because miracles ceased.
because that which is perfect has come.

Show me ANY verse, which says that Jesus cannot save someone RIGHT NOW in the same way that the thief on Jesus' right, and Paul of Tarsus were saved!

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The verses that show how he does save are enough Craig. I don't have to quote verses that show how he doesn't. That's more crazy talk... let's see. Now I'm going to go look for the verse that says Christ doesn't save us by jumping on a trampoline. Then I'll look for the one that says he doesn't save us by eating cheeseburgers.

Instead I'll show the verses that show how he does save us.

Show me ANY verse in the Bible that states that God no longer peforms miracles!

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No problem. For the 3rd time (I guess you aren't reading my posts)
I cor 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

BIG PROBLEM actually.

And yes, I have been readin ALL your responses to me!

But you are severely misunderstanding those verses.

"WHETHER there be Prophecies"

WHETHER... clearly LEAVES THE DOOR OPEN for prophecies.

Read the rest of it...

We know in part
We prophecy in part

THESE THINGS HAPPEN, and ARE GOING TO HAPPEN...

Until when?

....Until that which is PERFECT (Jesus) is come. Jesus had already died and ressurected when these verses were written, so WE KNOW that they are referring to the SECOND COMING of Christ.

So Paul, THERE WILL BE REVELATION... until Jesus RETURNS.

But more amazing to me, is this...

That this verse PROVES my point TO YOU, rather than it proving your point to me!

The point of this verse, is that LOVE (Charity) NEVER FAILS. Prophecies can be misunderstood, knowledge can be only partial-knowledge, but LOVE.... LOVE PAUL.... LOVE NEVER FAILETH!

Why? Because LOVE IS PERFECT!

And since the only thing I know of that is perfect is GOD HIMSELF.

This is also an excellent biblical proof of my other belief, that...

GOD IS LOVE.

Not full of love. Not "loving"

GOD IS LOVE ITSELF!!!!

Thank you for proving so many of my understandings with a single quote from the Bible Paul!

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That's why we received the great commission. The bible also says (haven't found where yet) the end will not come until all living have heard the gospel.

Mark 13:10

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No Craig. "That which is perfect" is the new law. As found in

I cor 13:10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

Why would Paul call Jesus that? He wouldn't. If Paul was speaking of Jesus he would have said he. As in he which is perfect.

The new perfect law came. Miracles ceased.

Miracles were to prove that
1. the apostles were from God.
2. to confirm the word.

Oops...

My mistake Paul.

The Apostle Paul is speaking of MATURITY itself. When that which is PERFECT or MATURE comes, then the IMPERFECT or IMMATURE things will pass away. I went back and read the whole context. This is why Paul continues on with... "When I was a child, I spake as a child, but when I became a man, I put away childish things."

The chapter is an exposition on Love.

The CHURCH is still young and immature at this point in history, and this is why questions come up, and problems, and Paul ends up sending all these letters to the various churches for guidance.

Paul is giving a couched admonition about various gifts of the spirit...

Prophecy. Tongues. Faith. Love.

Prophecies can be misunderstood. Tongues can be a gift from God, or they could be a sign of spiritual possession. Having prophecy could lead to EGOSIM... "Oh, God prophecies to me personally, so I must be more spiritual than you!"

With immaturity, there are many ways that pure gifts from God, can be corrupted through our immature hearts.

Love however, NEVER FAILS.

Love cannot make you feel superior to others. When you love others, you are sacrificing for them. You are in effect, putting them above yourself, because you are putting their needs ahead of your own many times. Love is kind, love is patient, it is not egotistical.

So, Paul is addressing these issues in a young church. People are opening up spiritually, or maybe sometimes just professing to... "Oh, I had a dream last night... God must have given me the gift of prophecy!"

And Paul is explaining that, yes, these are ALL gifts of the spirit, but WITHOUT LOVE, they are all MEANINGLESS.

When we are made perfect, when Christ comes again, when our bodies are redeemed, when we are in Heaven, when we are MATURE... things that we see IN PART now, WILL ALL be clear to us then. So, why dispute among yourselves, why elevate yourselves among one another. We only see dimly through the glass presently, but one day... when maturity comes to us, we will ALL know the fullness of the truth.

Until that day comes, Paul is telling us, that YOU CANNOT GO WRONG with the spiritual gift of LOVE.

LOVE NEVER FAILS.

LOVE CANNOT BE MISTAKEN.

IT IS NEVER WRONG TO LOVE.

WE CANNOT MISUNDERSTAND LOVE.

LOVE IS ALWAYS RIGHT!


Now, many of you are immature, Paul is saying, so if you are desiring spiritual gifts.... STICK WITH LOVE!

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The new perfect law came. Miracles ceased.

No Paul. Where do you get that from?

"When THAT which is perfect is come... "

What "new law" came after Paul spoke those words? The perfection Paul was speaking of had clearly NOT YET COME to his audience, which is why he says "WHEN that which is perfect has come"

What "NEW" law came after Paul sent that letter to the Corinthians?

Did Paul author a new law?

Miracles were to prove that
1. the apostles were from God.
2. to confirm the word.

So God ONLY performs miracles for those 2 reasons alone? What verse do you get THAT from? And the 1st reason would not apply to the Old Testament where God performed MANY miracles, would it? Since there were not yet "apostles" in the Old Testament.

Miracles, in BOTH Old and New Testaments were performed by God for a VARIETY of reasons Paul. Not just the 2, you are "allowing" God to operate within.

When Christ HEALED the sick...

Did He do this for the 2 reasons you mentioned? Or is it possible He actually healed them because of love and compassion?


And, what about miracles NOT of Jesus or the Apostles?

Those were not done for either of the two reasons you mentioned.

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Rev Mike/Ace is rolling over in his haze, laughing at us...

Go buy a pulpit and a rev. license.

Mike!!!!

Welcome back!

Craig, you are not he whom you claimed to be, or you would have stopped those terrible floods sent to your home state.

Florida?

Not having any floods in Florida brother.



When I left Georgia though, and moved to Florida, it flooded in Georgia AFTER I left.

I've been living in Florida for a few months now.

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I was referring to GA...if you recall, the messages we exchanged occured before the floods. I thought you would have stopped them. You don't have to be there to be involved.

and miracles have not ceased...if that flood is not proof enough, then look further. The signs of my father are everywhere.

I'm not Jesus Mike.

I just love God. That's all I can say for myself.

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How did I miss his return?

Welcome back, Mike

Your comment about me laughing at you all from my haze came just a few hours after my return...I got an email from a member and figured I'd check in...I was shocked to see this thread was still in the #4 position, I thought it would have long since died off since everyone said I am the one that kept this stuff going...doubt I'll ever get through all the stuff I've missed, especially with paul and craig still going back and forth. I think paul will find it interesting to know that the churches are working on a revision of the KJV of the bible, since the council of churches is in agreement that some stuff is missing and some is just plain inaccurate. The new version should be out in 2012.

The New King James Bible is a revision of the 1611 King James Version as revised in 1769, which is the version in general usage today

Ironically, the truth will be revealed to all that year when my, our, father finally reveals it to the masses...