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Is this ridiculous or what?

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#86599 by philbymon
Wed Oct 14, 2009 1:49 pm
gtZip wrote:pffft...
While your at it, go back and read some history of the middle east and European relations, starting, oh I dunno... about a thousand years ago and forward.

They attacked us, because they see us as the figurehead, or the strongest pillar, of the 'great satan'.

Then again some people would have you believe that we attacked our selves.
If that ever turns out to be true, then just diregard anything I've ever typed.


I have looked at the history, Zip.

For nearly 2 centuries, they left us alone, probably due to the promise that Geo. Washington made to them in 1789, in which he stated that in no way is the USA a "christian nation," & he promised we would not to meddle in their affairs.

Shortly after the oil wells sprang up in the 30's, however, our policy of non-meddlement seemed to change.

Jump to 1946...we, with the UK & the USSR, decided to establish the new country of Israel. Prior to this, the state of Palestine was run mostly by moslems, while Jews were not only in residence there, but also held some gov't offices. At this point, however, we decided to oust the gov't, install Jews who had never seen their historic holy land, & hadn't even held office in any gov't before, & declared it a good thing to do.

Of course, the newer Jewish ppl only had their "history" to go by, & the two religions had had many prob's in the not-so-distant past, although in the years just prior to 1946, there were far fewer troubles than there had been for many years. The new gov't switched things, as they are wont to do, & made the Palestinians into 2nd class citizens, stripping them of their ancesteral properties & turning them over to the transplants, who were angry, had been ousted from their own countries & after some horrid stuff had been done to them. They were very eager to rule, to control their destiny, & they didn't care much about who got hurt outside of their own ppl.

Jump a decade or two later, & you'll find the USA removing the gov't that was in place in Iran, & placing the Shah, our own puppet ruler, at the head of their gov't. A decade or two later, of course, they had had quite enough of this, took over the USA embassy, & ousted the Shah, because of his outrageous maltreatment of the ppl.

There is plenty for them to be angry about. We broke our treaty with them. They look at our actions as an attack, not on particular countries, but as an attack on the "Nation Of Isalm," because we were meddling in the entire area. Our actions have actually banded tribes who have been enemies for hundreds of years to work together against us. The two examples above are the smallest part of what we have done to the countries in this area. Add into this the "economic sanctions" ( they find it difficult, &, in some cases, impossible to get MEDICINE, food, building supplies, etc etc etc ), the two wars on Iran ( after we backed them in their war with Iraq - another act of meddlism ), our bombing of their capitals, etc (in retalliation, I'll admit, in some cases), & you have the entire area against the USA, with truly good reason.

There are still ppl alive who remember Palestine. Their hatred has been passed on to their children, & their children's children, who now wish to rule the land that was stolen from them by outsiders, & made them into the bastard children of Islam, a ppl without a country. And all during this process, we have meddled ever more in their affairs, with various excuses for our reasons. Still, they know it comes down to the fact that we want to control the black gold they sit upon, & we also want our armed forces in that area, which is a good strategy for a country that meddles so much in world affairs.

Yes, to them, we ARE a satanic country - one that does not embrace their values, their ways, their rules of conduct & law, yet will continually stir up troubles between them at every opportunity, to try to keep them disunited, to remove them from power at every opportunity, & to keep them from becoming world powers in their own right.

Yes, DO look at the history. When was the last time the Islamic faith grouped together & try to convert other ppl at sword-point? It's been quite awhile. They have fractured into many different sects. Left to their own devices, it is extremely unlikely that they would band together against any country or culture.

Yet here we are. Our actions have caused 9/11, even if we didn't have anything to do with it directly, as conspiracy ppl believe. Not only are WE in their gunsights, but so are our allies, because, as sans is so fond of saying - "the friend of my enemy is my enemy." Extremely diverse tribes who have been enemies for 2 centuries or more have banded together against us & our allies because "the enemy of my enemy is my friend."

The answer to this problem would involve removing our entire group of armed forces from the area & rewriting the original treaty that our first president made with them, & make it all-inclusive to all countries of the Islamic faith, as was intended at the beginning of our existence.

Then, we should follow that up with all-out attack on any country that attacks us, with no consideration for collateral damage, but ONLY the counry involved, NOT its allies. Once we establish the nonintervention policies, we will be left alone, I'll wager, but the iron fist in the velvet glove will certainly dissuade anyone from breaking a treaty with us in an attack.

We must handle things in ways that THEY understand, to earn their respect, and THAT, for some stupid reason, we seem unwilling to do.
Last edited by philbymon on Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

#86601 by jimmydanger
Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:05 pm
Well spoke Phil. We must accept some responsibility for the state of the world. For too long we've acted like the world's policeman and have caused much resentment. It's time to butt out of other people's affairs and concentrate on our own country, which is a mess.

#86617 by Chippy
Wed Oct 14, 2009 5:04 pm
If I had a dollar Jimmy, just one dollar. Folks who work with their hands, people in music all seem to have something in common.

Common sense. Well mostly anyway, at least they see through bushes rather than chop them down.

jimmydanger wrote:Well spoke Phil. We must accept some responsibility for the state of the world. For too long we've acted like the world's policeman and have caused much resentment. It's time to butt out of other people's affairs and concentrate on our own country, which is a mess.

#86647 by gtZip
Wed Oct 14, 2009 8:59 pm
philbymon wrote:
gtZip wrote:pffft...
While your at it, go back and read some history of the middle east and European relations, starting, oh I dunno... about a thousand years ago and forward.

They attacked us, because they see us as the figurehead, or the strongest pillar, of the 'great satan'.

Then again some people would have you believe that we attacked our selves.
If that ever turns out to be true, then just diregard anything I've ever typed.


I have looked at the history, Zip.

For nearly 2 centuries, they left us alone, probably due to the promise that Geo. Washington made to them in 1789, in which he stated that in no way is the USA a "christian nation," & he promised we would not to meddle in their affairs.

Shortly after the oil wells sprang up in the 30's, however, our policy of non-meddlement seemed to change.

Jump to 1946...we, with the UK & the USSR, decided to establish the new country of Israel. Prior to this, the state of Palestine was run mostly by moslems, while Jews were not only in residence there, but also held some gov't offices. At this point, however, we decided to oust the gov't, install Jews who had never seen their historic holy land, & hadn't even held office in any gov't before, & declared it a good thing to do.

Of course, the newer Jewish ppl only had their "history" to go by, & the two religions had had many prob's in the not-so-distant past, although in the years just prior to 1946, there were far fewer troubles than there had been for many years. The new gov't switched things, as they are wont to do, & made the Palestinians into 2nd class citizens, stripping them of their ancesteral properties & turning them over to the transplants, who were angry, had been ousted from their own countries & after some horrid stuff had been done to them. They were very eager to rule, to control their destiny, & they didn't care much about who got hurt outside of their own ppl.

Jump a decade or two later, & you'll find the USA removing the gov't that was in place in Iran, & placing the Shah, our own puppet ruler, at the head of their gov't. A decade or two later, of course, they had had quite enough of this, took over the USA embassy, & ousted the Shah, because of his outrageous maltreatment of the ppl.

There is plenty for them to be angry about. We broke our treaty with them. They look at our actions as an attack, not on particular countries, but as an attack on the "Nation Of Isalm," because we were meddling in the entire area. Our actions have actually banded tribes who have been enemies for hundreds of years to work together against us. The two examples above are the smallest part of what we have done to the countries in this area. Add into this the "economic sanctions" ( they find it difficult, &, in some cases, impossible to get MEDICINE, food, building supplies, etc etc etc ), the two wars on Iran ( after we backed them in their war with Iraq - another act of meddlism ), our bombing of their capitals, etc (in retalliation, I'll admit, in some cases), & you have the entire area against the USA, with truly good reason.

There are still ppl alive who remember Palestine. Their hatred has been passed on to their children, & their children's children, who now wish to rule the land that was stolen from them by outsiders, & made them into the bastard children of Islam, a ppl without a country. And all during this process, we have meddled ever more in their affairs, with various excuses for our reasons. Still, they know it comes down to the fact that we want to control the black gold they sit upon, & we also want our armed forces in that area, which is a good strategy for a country that meddles so much in world affairs.

Yes, to them, we ARE a satanic country - one that does not embrace their values, their ways, their rules of conduct & law, yet will continually stir up troubles between them at every opportunity, to try to keep them disunited, to remove them from power at every opportunity, & to keep them from becoming world powers in their own right.

Yes, DO look at the history. When was the last time the Islamic faith grouped together & try to convert other ppl at sword-point? It's been quite awhile. They have fractured into many different sects. Left to their own devices, it is extremely unlikely that they would band together against any country or culture.

Yet here we are. Our actions have caused 9/11, even if we didn't have anything to do with it directly, as conspiracy ppl believe. Not only are WE in their gunsights, but so are our allies, because, as sans is so fond of saying - "the friend of my enemy is my enemy." Extremely diverse tribes who have been enemies for 2 centuries or more have banded together against us & our allies because "the enemy of my enemy is my friend."

The answer to this problem would involve removing our entire group of armed forces from the area & rewriting the original treaty that our first president made with them, & make it all-inclusive to all countries of the Islamic faith, as was intended at the beginning of our existence.

Then, we should follow that up with all-out attack on any country that attacks us, with no consideration for collateral damage, but ONLY the counry involved, NOT its allies. Once we establish the nonintervention policies, we will be left alone, I'll wager, but the iron fist in the velvet glove will certainly dissuade anyone from breaking a treaty with us in an attack.

We must handle things in ways that THEY understand, to earn their respect, and THAT, for some stupid reason, we seem unwilling to do.


Phil,
That is the best post I have ever read on this forum, or on any forum, period.

A couple little quibbles:
* The treaty of Tripoli --- not sure that that equals a treaty between the u.s. and all muslims. Or the entire middle east.
* The U.N. has been plenty involved in sanctions. The U.S. hasn't just done it all by its lonesome.
*For a long stretch of time, the gap between u.s. technology and the technology of the middle eastern nations was fairly wide. Might have something to do with them leaving us alone for so long.
Nowadays, any human can get their hands on most any technology and learn to use it.

Other than that, I surrender to your mighty outpouring of words, sir. :)

(I quoted the entire thing on purpose so that folks wandering by can read it more than once.)

#86649 by ColorsFade
Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:11 pm
philbymon wrote:Left to their own devices, it is extremely unlikely that they would band together against any country or culture.


This is a great observation. It's generally true of any religion or large group of people with a common belief.

Look at the Christian faith. When they don't have a common cause to rally behind, they splinter into subgroups and argue amongst themselves. Jehova's Witnesses, Mormons, Protestant, Catholic... You get the idea.

I've long held that you can't defeat a religion with a frontal, direct attack. That only steels their resolve and gives them a focused reason to band together. Apathy is the best weapon. Just leave them alone and don't care; they'll turn on each other.

#86657 by RockNRollMusic
Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:38 pm
Nice poll... I couldn't choose any of the answers haha...

I don't know why people are so quick to say Obama doesn't deserve it... None of us are experts on everything (aside from what we may think haha), and you can't take everything you read in the news (or what you heard from a friend) as fact.

I like Obama and the bailout did help in a lot of ways. It definitely created some jobs here in Arizona and helped pay for things the state couldn't afford. I don't understand the people who say Obama hasn't done anything. Do you think he just sits around smoking cigarettes all day? He has a lot to do and things take awhile to get through congress especially with partisan opposition. I think healthcare needs the overhaul and I believe having a government run (or not for profit whatever) public option is the right thing to do. Healthcare should be available/affordable for everyone. One of the latest things I heard about Obama is that he is giving the lgbt community more rights such as ending the don't ask don't tell policy... That's definitely the right thing to do too. America is supposed to be fair and equal for everyone.

Back to the Prize, I'm just not so quick to say he doesn't deserve it.

#86660 by gbheil
Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:31 pm
If I get up early and collect pecans all day without a break and get 100 to eat. And my neighbor gets up after lunch and screws off most of the day and only picks up ten. Why should I have to give him 40 of mine?
His opportunity was fair and equal.
Am I responsible for his being too lazy or stupid to gather his own?
Lets for a moment assume that I am.
30 of my acorns have already been eaten by the elites in whom dont work because they are in "control"
So me and my lazy neighbor go hungry.
Our government soends much but produces nothing.
I hate to sound cleche' but that is truly unsustainable.

My wife and I went from renting shacks sleeping on the floor and using banana boxes for furniture. To owning our own home and raising four children. Because we worked for it.
I expect the same from my countrymen.

#86669 by RockNRollMusic
Thu Oct 15, 2009 12:09 am
Hey Sanshouheil, just wondering what the analogy is in reference to? haha.. I definitely agree people need to put more stock in personal responsibility... And that's cool you went from renting shacks to owning a home - I hope to do the same one day. I don't know if you have these over there but here in Phoenix we have these speed cameras along the highways called Photo Enforcement. Anyway, I got a ticket in a company vehicle and got fired for it. Doesn't really make sense - yeah I was speeding a little but I paid the ticket so it didn't cost the company any money.. Now I'm back at home, unemployed, ineligible for unemployment, and unable to find a job (things are pretty grim in AZ). I'm just looking for work in this economy! Didn't even land a dish washing job haha. Ok enough about my life...

#86670 by ANGELSSHOTGUN
Thu Oct 15, 2009 12:22 am
Just name three great guits that come from any where near those areas filled with hate.
Aint none.
People dont like Americans because we work too hard, we play too hard, we care and love to much, we strive to be fair untill pushed, we get amazing things done because we allow our best to become the best. ETC ETC.

The rest of the hateful world just keeps wondering why America is so great,,,,,

We are not lazy, you can't practice once a month and expect to be a musician.

#86679 by 1collaborator
Thu Oct 15, 2009 1:32 am
I hate that all of the stimulis money that Gov Sanford tried to keep out of SC here only went to support medicaid and unemployment. I have'nt seen the first job born from it yet. Then the fact that my business is off 70 % in 3 months from a year ago does'nt help either. I'm like everyone else, I know something needs to be done and soon. Or maybe its time to call China for some more bailout money. It wont be long before I'll need a bailout for sure !

But its another day in Paradise !!!

#86680 by HowlinJ
Thu Oct 15, 2009 1:45 am
I like what George and Glen said.

Anyways,

I got to thinkin' about what ya'll been talkin' about and I came up with a solution to the Mid-East problem,

First, git all the Israelis to move out of Israel and come over here! They can set up a religious enclave in North Dakota. After seeing how they transformed their deserts into productive farmland, imagine what they could do with The Scab Lands! They also wouldn't need their formitable arsenal anymore so it could be absorbed into ours, saving everbody a few bucks. For anyone who may be adverse to a religious state in the good 'ol USA, consider this, we already have a bunch of Mormons running Utah, Baptist in West Virginny', Atheists in Nevada, Amish in a good chunk of my own P.A., and Catholics in Connecticut.

With Israel out of the middle east, all those fine Arabian people will all be united in spiritual bliss, and peace and harmony will prevail right? :roll:

anyways,

We no longer need an ally in the middle east because we can just buy our gas from our 'ol pal Mr Putin. (at least until Mr Obama figures out how to produce energy from pinwheels and Washington hot air. That should be an easy matter for a Nobel Lauriat of the likes of Richard Feynman and Albert Einstein! :wink:

Y'all must now excuse me while I go think up another great idea, (I'm on a roll!)
Howlin'

#86712 by philbymon
Thu Oct 15, 2009 2:01 pm
Well, I, for one, don't think it's an accident that they overthrew the Shah during the administration of our first "preacher president."

Zip, it's true that Washington's treaty was with Turkey, & not the entire Nation Of Islam, but you have to look at it from their viewpoint. He said that we were not a "christian country," & that we would not interfere in their issues of state. For them, the state equals the religion, to a large degree. Not only did we meddle, but our leader at the time of the Shah's exile, Jimmy Carter, was a Baptist minister. Our last pres constantly bragged that he was doing things that his god told him to do, even during his campaign. I don't find it all that surprizing that they chose his administration to attack us on such a large scale.

They watch world events, too, and when they see the White House opening itself up to such "advisors" as Billy Graham & Jerry Falwell, yeah, they do have reason for extreme concern, considering their history with "religious wars." All of our administrations since Carter have basically had an open door policy to our religious leaders, or worse, to televangelists, who talk a lot of hate, sometimes, publicly.

Now that our country is being advised by such ppl, we are continually at the forefront at the UN, being the 1st to demand those sanctions, the 1st to demand other actions against their countries, again & again. It is WE who have continually drawn lines in the sand, demanding this or that from them.

Going back to Washington's treaty - my wife spent a good part of her childhood on foreign soil, as she is an Air Force brat. Guess where she spent a cpl years - yep, TURKEY! We have a base there...& in Saudi Arabia...these & other bases, these countries graciously allowed after our exemplary actions in WWII.

Of course, after we "saved" the arab world from Nazi intervention & rule (with help from our allies), WE became the next world power to intervene in their affairs to an astonishing degree - establishing Israel & erasing Palestine, setting the Shah in power in Iran, backing Iraq in their war with Iran, interfering in the Iraqi war against Kuwait (who were stealing Iraqi oil by drilling under the border, btw), recalling the very weapons we sold to Iraq, repeatedly calling for sanctions against Iran & Iraq, etc etc etc...& worse yet, our actions were taken by our leaders who proclaimed time & again how religious they are ( a HUGE mistake on a global scale when you meddle in the affairs of other religions).

Look at our recent history from their view -

68 - Richard Nixon - intervenes in negotiations between Israel & Egypt, backs Israel, black ops missions, ousted from rule for his lying & improper behavior, leaves Viet Nam in shame from an arab point of view, OPEC shuts down oil production to hurt us for our backing of the Shah & Israel, among other things
74 - Gerald Ford - never taken seriously as an American pres, Israeli prob's continue
76 - Jimmy Carter, a Baptist minister - Iran's Shah is finally overthrown, the US embassy is successfully taken, black ops missions, backs Israel
80 - Ronald Reagan - opens the White House to televangelists, Iran/Contra affair, bombed Khadafi's palace, Granada "war," arrogant in foreign policy, backs Israel, backs Iraq against Iran, black ops missions
88 - Geo Bush Sr - involved in Iran/Contra, headed CIA, VP under Reagan, called for sanctions against Iran & Iraq, 1st Iraqi war (lost), backs Israel, black ops missions
92 - Clinton - Bin Laden attacks us for the 1st time & fails, this pres continues to demand sanctions against Iraq, backs Israel, black ops missions continue
00 - GWB - claims divine guidance, continues & increases sanctions, arrogant in foreign policy, backs Israel, Oral Roberts calls for the death of Chavez (breaking international law) yet no action is taken against him (!), black ops continue, Bin Laden is successful which gives the arab world hope against us, Iraqi war, Afghani war, war declared against one of their religious sects, etc etc etc...
08 - Barack Obama - Iraqi war continues, Afghani war continues...hope?

These are just the little bits I can recall off the top of my head (& honestly, I only suspect all the black ops missions, but there are indicators throughout that point in this direction, & I think it rather naive to believe otherwise - I'm also not entirely sure of the actual timelines all these events occurred, but I'd bet they're pretty close)...there's much more, like our intervention in the on-going strife between Turkey & Greece & between Pakistan & India (doesn't India have the bomb? from whom did they get it?), tampering with oil pricing, & much more to suspect going on behind the scenes...but perhaps it isn't so "behind the scenes" in their countries...?

#86721 by gbheil
Thu Oct 15, 2009 3:06 pm
Anology in reference to abhorant waste and theft of public assistance and "bailouts". After all thats my money not the governments.

I have drawn unemployment. And would again if that is my hand up.
I am only 49 but have been paying income & SS tax since 75 I think.
I have a good friend whom is using some "public assistance" to help support his family while he re educates himself. His wife works, family and friends help with the baby and other essentials. But he is using it as a tool so that he can be an effective wage earner again. I have much pride in that young man. He embodies the "American Spirit".
He is not a tool using it as a way to not have to work as some other folk in my aquaintence.
I will sacrifice to help him and his family. But not a second of my time or a dime of my money for the tool.

It is increasingly difficult for my wife and I to assist our extended family and friends due to the funds being taken and wasted by the government.
Government assistance funds need to be sniper accurate. Not spray n pray waste.

I pray daily for my countrymen whom are unemployed. Been there.
Most difficult time of my life was when Mobil Oil layed me off.
My family suffered. I almost lost my freakin mind. (not sure I didnt) I was able to keep my home thanks to my wife and extended family. Though I did lose my truck to the bank and rode a bycicle to nursing school for a time. ( note big shift in focus Oilfield hand to RN )
It is do-able!

God speed.
And NEVER EVER GIVE UP !!

#86758 by CraigMaxim
Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:32 am
Howlin,

Israel will never accept giving up their homeland, particularly the "Temple Mount" which as I eplained previously, is a piece of real estate where the Jewish temple was erected. According to scripture, the Temple can ONLY be built on that particular spot of land. When you see the orthodox Jews on the news, and they are praying with their head going back and forth quickly, in front of a wall. That is the "Wailing Wall" which is the REMNANTS of the old temple. They are praying there for the RESTORATION of the Temple. Their religion can never be complete without THAT TEMPLE being on THAT SPOT.

The problem is, that it is also the third (somewhere in there) holiest spot on Earth for Muslims as well. That very same piece of real estate. And the Muslims conveniently have built a Mosque on top of where the Temple is supposed to be built.

Thus, there is a stand off.

One that, I ASSURE YOU, will not last forever.

If the Jews do not destroy that Mosque one day, they can never have their Temple back. If the Jews DO destroy that Mosque, I assure you, the entire Muslim world will come against them for it.

The Temple is the ONLY PLACE where Jews can perform animal sacrifices, and for orthodox Jews, there must be blood shed for the remission of certain sins. As I said, their religion will be incomplete until they rebuild that Temple.

And they will do it.

It is just a question of when and how.

This will bring chaos like you cannot believe, when that day comes.

There is no tangible solution to this stand-off without one side or the other, giving up part of their theological beliefs.

Neither orthodox Jews nor strict Muslims, will do that.

It will take a disaster of biblical proportions to change either mindset.

.
Last edited by CraigMaxim on Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

#86759 by CraigMaxim
Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:42 am
Phil,

The largest issue for Muslims and the terrorists among them, is not merely "meddling" in their affairs, it is our occupation of MECCA, the Holy Land. Our presense there (military bases - soldiers) is an offense to them. It was absolutely the biggest driving force for Bin Laden to stage the large attacks on the WTC and Pentagon, etc...

However, it is also naive to believe that they are content with their own real estate, and that if we simply leave them alone there, then they will stop attacking us.

This held more weight in the past, BEFORE, oil wealth came their way, but certainly will not be the case today. Fundamentalists among Muslims, absolutely believe that the WORLD must be converted to Islam, or subjugated by force, and the people who refuse to convert, living on reservation style lands, and operating as basically serfs, or slave labor, and completely controlled by the religious government they would institute.

We are the "Great Satan" and we must be destroyed, because their god hates us, and our way of life, including personal freedoms.

They desire a theocracy that covers the globe.

We will NEVER be safe, until that mindset changes.

That will not happen easily.

It is a naive view, and a lack of knowledge of history, that leads some to propose the idea, that this religion is truly peace loving, and that we brought the wrath upon ourselves.

Islam from it's very origins, was spread at the point of a sword, by Muhammed and his followers. You converted or you were killed. They spread their religion this way. They conquered many lands in this way, and would have conquered the world, if not slowed down, of which the Crusades were a part.

Their religion at it's root, is ABSOLUTE, it is FUNDAMENTALIST, and it is VIOLENT.

.

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