General Music Chat

No wonder atheism is advancing faster than Christianity today.

Me thinks that has more to do with not having to accept any responibility for ones actions.

Though many atheist have a "coded of conduct" because they believe they should live as "good people", they simply do not realise that this is a reminant and reminder of God in their psychie that they dont recognise.

You would not want to know me if I did not believe in an eternal consequence for my actions. I would simply take what I wanted and destroy the rest. That is my "old adam" nature.

My .02 anyways.

First, Mary's lineage was never clearly determined

It is listed in the Bible, and goes back to David. It could be a lie, but it is stated there numerous times. I accept it.

Second, they didn't have adoption back then.

Of course they did. The concept of adoption was very well established. Why do you think Paul uses the term "adoption" for Christians?

I just mentioned it however, because BOTH Mary and Joseph were in the direct lineage of David. And through BOTH birth AND adoption, Jesus is a descendant of David.

It is likely however that the promise is fulfilled through Mary, rather than Joseph, which would explain why the angel tells HER (and not Joseph) that Jesus would be given the throne of His father David. The throne of David CAN be handed down through a woman, if her father had no other sons. (Numbers 27:8 )

So in this case, the lineage of Mary, as a descendant of David, as well as other Priests, Prohets and Patriarchs, fulfills the requirements and answers the various prophecies.

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I do believe the passing of one wife and the taking of one wife after the passing of the first would still quailfy.

But it sure leaves fornicating adulterous scumbags like me out of the loop.

I agree. That elder who I mentioned. The one whose wife died was on his second wife. His first had died.

I want to ask you, Craig, because you mention the war in heaven, what religion are you? The only reason I ask is because the war in heaven, the whole concept of satan and being cast onto earth and into sheole (hell) comes from the Book of Adam and Eve, it is not in the current bible. The story of Adam and Eve in the current bible doesn't mention satan at all, it mentions the serpent, which historical fact shows, was the god of the time period, until the adam and eve story destroyed the serpent by turning it into the evil, enemy of mankind. Was that from the moonies? And why does no one question that story? Like you Paul?

Its not in the bible, but I am sure you've heard it before and you probably accept it as true. Most christians do. I just watched a special on the history channel about all of that!

First, Mary's lineage was never clearly determined

It is listed in the Bible, and goes back to David. It could be a lie, but it is stated there numerous times. I accept it.

Second, they didn't have adoption back then.

Of course they did. The concept of adoption was very well established. Why do you think Paul uses the term "adoption" for Christians?

I just mentioned it however, because BOTH Mary and Joseph were in the direct lineage of David. And through BOTH birth AND adoption, Jesus is a descendant of David.

It is likely however that the promise is fulfilled through Mary, rather than Joseph, which would explain why the angel tells HER (and not Joseph) that Jesus would be given the throne of His father David. The throne of David CAN be handed down through a woman, if her father had no other sons. (Numbers 27:8 )

So in this case, the lineage of Mary, as a descendant of David, as well as other Priests, Prohets and Patriarchs, fulfills the requirements and answers the various prophecies.

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I find no lineage of mary in any of the bibles I have handy, only one i don't have is the roman catholic. A better answer, if you're trying to convert someone, is to say that we are all direct decendents of Adam and Eve, therefore Jesus must be of Mary's lineage, however, Matthew and Luke both mention Only Joseph's side.

There are many instances of old testament worship that are no longer used. Sacrificing Animals is one.

That may have something to do with the fact that Jesus, the sinless son of God was the sacrifice to end all blood sacrifices. Ya think?

But instruments sound the same in the Old Testament as in the New.

You are ADDING to the scriptures by Prohibiting them.

If the New Testament does not specifically, require something in worship, then it would be left open to the judgement of the elders of the church, NOT PROHIBITED OUTRIGHT, merely because of ommission.

There is no example or requirement of using a microphone and PA in church, and your church has DECIDED that this is appropriate, regardless of the lack of precedent or example. Musical instruments should be the same. If you are going to use microphones, you should allow musical instruments.

The verses about singing are mentioned in LETTERS.

If the church were poor, and all they had was their bodies, then of course, they were singing to create music. They had nothing else at the time. This was a POOR and NEWLY FORMED RELIGION Paul. The Bible details the disciples own arguments and discussions over what should be correct or not. That is not "God breathed" it is men, not unlike YOU or ME, that are doing the best they can, making decisions for what should be done, and what is best. There are verses speaking AGAINST eating food sacrificed to idols, and verses speaking FOR eating food sacrificed to idols.

You claim to be freed from the law, and yet all you do is re-establish the law. Why are their even arguments, when everything is "God brethed"? Was God arguing with Himself?

Clearly, the disciples, were faithfully, trying to mke the best decisions they could. It is not all set in stone, as you would have it. When Jesus was with His disciples, sometimes they washed their hands, and other times they did not. Breaking Jewish rules as they did, it is VERY conceivable that neither Jesus, NOR His disciples, would have been allowed as members of your church.

Think about that. Understand how real a possibility that would have been, had you been back in Jesus' day. You would have judged Him, using your precious rules. He was a rule breaker on occassion, because RULES WERE MADE FOR MEN, not MEN FOR RULES.

It is about THE HEART.

The heart Paul.

How could instruments played in love for God possibly offend God?

There are instruments used by God's people in the Old Testament. There are instruments being played in Heaven.

But you believe that just "in between" God wanted a space of silence where instruments were concerned, but not vocals.

How STUPID is that?

What kind of tyrannical maniac would God be?

"Hmm... Ok, I had you guys playing instruments to worship me for thousands of years... I'm bored with that now, although I will let the instruments continue in Heaven, and I will let them play at the last days, but for now... no instruments... but you can sing. If your vocal chords are producing the vibrations making sounds, that is acceptable unto me, but if something else is making the vibrations producing sounds, that is NOT acceptable to me. BWAHAHAHA!!!"

The church was POOR Paul.

What if none of the earliest Christians KNEW how to play an instrument?

The church didn't have MANY things it does now, or opportunities it does now. Resources it does now.

But you don't mind microphones. You don't mind stained glass windows. Where is the example for those? You don't mind PA systems. You don't mind suits. Where is the example for that either? No examples for shoes either. No example for a person leading the music in service either. No example for air-conditioning. No example for PEWS. No examples for BUILDINGS used only for services. No examples for TOO MANY THINGS that you do without problem.

Can't you understand that one or two hillbillies, got a bug up their butts because of the advent of the Organ, and with their holier than thou attitude, they FOUND FAULT with it, because Organs were "worldly" at the time.

How it must suck for God, that He inspires technologies in us, that can create beautiful things, like music, but the tight-assed religionists, who love their self-righteouness more than they love their FATHER in Heaven, PREVENT God from enjoying that music being lifted up to Him in a worship service. How it must suck to watch satan get praised with instruments, while God has to hear a bunch of local-yokels singing off key, en masse, because some country bumpkin thinks he has a higher standard than everyone else, and gets a bunch of dumbasses to follow his legalistic crap.

And then they tell others how Christ freed them from the Law!

Wow!

No wonder atheism is advancing faster than Christianity today.

No wonder.

If this keeps up, before long, Christianity in large groups, will only be found among mountain people in West Virginia.

"Hey elrod, spray that sprinkler in the air again! Look Ma, We're sprayin' the sprinkler, and God is settin' his rainbow in it ever' time, so God will remember his promise not to flood us! He does it ever' single time ma!!! Call the papers ma!!! This is it!!! Proof of God ma!!! Ever' time I spray the sprinkler God promises me not to flood us again!!!"

"Elrod, your floodin' the damn house! Now put that sprinkler up!"



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"For this defense of God's righteousness you shall be condenmed by God's justice. For mockery is not the key to my father's house, nor is personal derision, but only compassion, understanding, and patience shall unlock the door."

That sounds like something that you'd find in the red lettering, hmmm.

"For this defense of God's righteousness you shall be condenmed by God's justice. For mockery is not the key to my father's house, nor is personal derision, but only compassion, understanding, and patience shall unlock the door."

What many fail to realize is that Jesus' strongest venom and most offensive words, were directed at the RELIGIOUS. People who held themselves to high standards and appeared as the holy and righteous, but who were actually self-righteous, and not following the will of God.

These were the ones who SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER.

But did they?

They followed their little rules to a T.

And then they shouted for God in the flesh to be MUREDERED!

They were so self-righteous, they didn't recorgnize God standing before their very eyes.

And Mockery is an effect that Jesus used abundantly, btw.

"You hypocrite, take the PLANK out of your own eye, then you will see clearly to remove the SPECK in your brother's eye."

This language would have made people laugh. The spector of a guy telling someone "Hey, you have a little speck in your eye there, let me get that out for you."

And all the while, he has a BOARD sticking out of his own eye, while he points out the tiny speck in his brother's eye. Jesus often used hyperbole and exaggeration to great effect, for example when He accused Pharisees of straining at gnats and yet swallowing whole camels (Mt 23.24). The Aramaic language made this particular saying memorable, because of the word play between "gnat" (kalma) and "camel" (gamla). In pursuit of ritual purity a devout man would strain the unclean gnat from his wine (Lev 11.20). Yet, by absolutely meticulous observance of the law, the pious man instead swallows a camel, a much larger unclean animal (Lev 11.4), and therefore commits a far greater sin.

Jesus condemns the Pharisees as being zealous about trivialities while overlooking their much more serious transgressions.

This is MY EXACT point to many Christians today!

Like the admonition against musical instruments, based upon nothing more than that the early church was too poor to have them, particularly when they were using their money to feed the poor, and send missionaries over seas. As the church grew in number and became the state religion of Rome, and therefore very wealthy, there was plenty of money to embrace cathedrals and musical instruments.

It is like William Miller who apparently was reading his Bible one day, when he discovered (FEIGNED SHOCK) that the Sabbath was actually Saturday and not Sunday.

OMG!!!!

The churches have all got it wrong!!! (like musical instruments)

I bet no one but me knows about this!!!!

There it is in black and white!!! The Sabbath is on Saturday!!! And we are supposed to worship God on the Sabbath!!!!

I better start a NEW CHURCH BRAND, hmmm... we'll call it "Seventh Day Adventists"!!!! And we'll be the one true group that is following God's commands like a good Christian should!!!

Sound familiar?

Splitting over the Sabbath observance (He missed where the early dsiciples honored a new Sabbath day, as the Sabbath, the day of Christ's resurrection.)

Or splitting over musical instruments (They missed where we are no longer bound by the law, and apparently missed Jesus' judgement of the Pharisees, of which they are merely modern Pharisees)

Jesus had and will always have, strong language to those who USE RELIGION to misguide others. The blind leading the blind. Where is God's heart in all this? Where is the love of others. Brotherhood and unity?

Satan just toys with the church Christ founded, and the self-righteous modern Pharisees are all too willing to play along and help him, while expecting a slap on the back by God, for their self-righteousness.

Jesus broke rules. Jesus laughed. Jesus joked. Jesus overthrew tables. Jesus partied. He drank wine. And he enjoyed good food.

He was judged by the same types found today. He was accused of being a partier (The son of man comes eating and drinking) and he was accused of hanging with the reprobate (friend of drunkards and sinners)

When will any of them learn? It is not about APPEARANCES or OUTWARD OBSERVANCES. It is about LOVE. The Love you have for our Father in heaven. The love you have for his children.

It is not about piety and religious rites and customs.

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I find no lineage of mary in any of the bibles I have handy.

Luke is widely accepted as detailing Jesus' lineage through Mary. But you likely already knew this. So go ahead, let the other shoe drop...


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Man!! Put "Religion" up as a thread-topic and get 16 pages of arguments!! That's some religious beliefs there!!

Luke 1:26-27
In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary.

Craig, my made up Jesus quote was to politely illustrate that you have the board in your eye. Calling someone a hypocrite when it is true is not mockery, calling someone stupid just because they believe different than you IS mockery.

Man!! Put "Religion" up as a thread-topic and get 16 pages of arguments!! That's some religious beliefs there!!

At least it's all in one thread!

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Craig, my made up Jesus quote was to politely illustrate that you have the board in your eye. Calling someone a hypocrite when it is true is not mockery, calling someone stupid just because they believe different than you IS mockery.

I understood your criticism.

I just didn't agree with it.

The attitudes I am condemning ARE SUFFOCATING CHRISTIANITY!

I wish you guys were getting this. But how difficult would that be? The churches are wealthy and comfortable, and everyone can wear it around their neck like a crucifix.

Christianity was never meant to be an adornment. A weekend hobby. It is a witness to the highest love possible. It is love that people are desperate for. It is being weakened by clinging to traditions and outdated interpretations, and worshipping books, rules, and cultural comforts, rather than worshipping in SPIRIT the LIVING GOD.

1/4 of the world's population claim to be Christian. Look at the shape the world is in. Is it really possible that 1 Christian with all of God's love and power behind them, cannot move the hearts of 3 others? Is it really possible that if 25% of the world is imbued with God's love and the testimony of Christ Jesus, that the world would not have been affected more than it has?

It is my belief that if 1/4 of the world's population were truly Christian, and truly practicing the love of Christ, that the world would already resemble closely, a heaven on Earth right now.

Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done... ON EARTH as it is in Heaven!

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Craig, my made up Jesus quote was to politely illustrate that you have the board in your eye. Calling someone a hypocrite when it is true is not mockery, calling someone stupid just because they believe different than you IS mockery.

I understood your criticism.

I just didn't agree with it.

The attitudes I am condemning ARE SUFFOCATING CHRISTIANITY!

I wish you guys were getting this. But how difficult would that be? The churches are wealthy and comfortable, and everyone can wear it around their neck like a crucifix.

Christianity was never meant to be an adornment. A weekend hobby. It is a witness to the highest love possible. It is love that people are desperate for. It is being weakened by clinging to traditions and outdated interpretations, and worshipping books, rules, and cultural comforts, rather than worshipping in SPIRIT the LIVING GOD.

1/4 of the world's population claim to be Christian. Look at the shape the world is in. Is it really possible that 1 Christian with all of God's love and power behind them, cannot move the hearts of 3 others? Is it really possible that if 25% of the world is imbued with God's love and the testimony of Christ Jesus, that the world would not have been affected more than it has?

It is my belief that if 1/4 of the world's population were truly Christian, and truly practicing the love of Christ, that the world would already resemble closely, a heaven on Earth right now.

Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done... ON EARTH as it is in Heaven!

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I understand what has become of the churches. I am saddened by it. I, however, understand that the fault does not lie with the student, but the teacher. The students beliefs being reinforced with quotes from the bible are the fault of the teacher. To call a man stupid for believing what he has always been told is the truth is the hypocracy you have Craig. For is it not true that you yourself cannot claim to know all? Or do you call yourself God? It is the fault of the teacher when the student suceeds with misinformation, it is the fault of the student when given the correct information and then failing. Either way, it is judgemental of you to take your disdain for organized religion, albeat justified, out on a man who simply believes what he was taught, and is not afraid to communicate his belief because it brings him joy, and it brings him the relationship he desires with his Father in Heaven. If that is pleasing to God, no matter the method, who are you to dispute or disparage it? It is about the personal relationship, and I see no hypocracy in what Neanderpaul is saying, it is a different belief from yours, however, it is a sincere belief that he practices to create his personal relationship with God. His methodology should not be relavent as long as there is no hypocracy. However, I did see hypocracy in Neaderpaul in judging another's methodology in previous replies in this forum. I see you all celebrating (with the exception of craig, who didn't seem to care either way) that you chased this guy out of here because his methodology was different than yours, and Paul, you did it the same way Craig is doing to you.

Let us all take the planks out of our own eyes before we cast our glance to another.

"And Mockery is an effect that Jesus used abundantly, btw.

"You hypocrite, take the PLANK out of your own eye, then you will see clearly to remove the SPECK in your brother's eye." - Ah, NOW I get it! So when you call someone a hypocrite, you're doing "God's work," but when someone else calls you out on something, they best be without sin before they cast that 1st stone! Cuz you're such a loving god-like guy & all...

I love it! There's a whole slew of quotes in here that really show just what you're all about, Craig. Stuff like...

"But to make me into a right wing nut job, is ill-informed, if not wanton stupidity." - Of course it is...cuz you say it is!

"But you are NOT standing up for truth." - Only YOU could do that, right, Craig?

"I used to be mentioned on Wikipedia as a famous critic of the The Unification Church but I just checked, and someone has altered the article, and gotten me taken off. They're still afraid of me. LOL" - Nah. I'll bet they're just afraid that you'f BORE 'em to death with your constant droning about how great you are, how much you've experienced, & how it's so wrong to look at anything differently than the way you look at things, you pious self-absorbed asshole.

"When someone is in the process of demeaning me, and makes a derrogatory comment about CHRISTIANITY ITSELF, then they ARE demeaning ALL Christians. When you demean CHRISTIANITY ITSELF, you ARE demeaning ALL Christians, you dunce!

It has nothing to do with me personally or ego." - Of course, prompting someone to be so fed up, so tired of your haranguing, that he makes that statement has nothing to do with it at all, does it? It simply COULDN'T be because you're such a terrible example of the religion, could it? No, cuz you are the PERFECT expert on the subject...what WAS it we were talking about? Oh yeah - YOU...AGAIN!!!!

"IT's funny how I post a thread on my OPINION and get attacked for it. I didn't tell anyone they had to believe in my position. I didn't threaten anyone. I simply posted my opinion.

Am I really at fault for having an opinion? Or are the FEW people sticking their noses into a thread they allegedly don't care about at fault here?

It has to be the latter, otherwise the statement being made is, that we are only allowed to post threads on approved topics. Who does the approving? Did someone elect a committee?" - No, Craig. You just irritated that many ppl that it turned into committee by default. But I can see that this is yet another example of your "perfect logic" at work!

"But I can find God's inspiration in MANY places, including the Koran, various Buddhist texts (they don't have any single holy book) and other places bro. Poetry, music, you name it. You can find God's inspiration in many places, and they are holy to me, wherever I find them." - REALLY? Gee! It sure doesn't sound that way when you're putting down the entire Islamic faith, Craig!

"I am a very logic oriented individual. I excel in "critical thinking", and do so far better than most. I am without a doubt, one of the least likely here to accept something at face value, without investigating it pretty thoroughly first, and looking for arguments on BOTH sides, to help determine the truth of it.

So I don't have any marching orders to fulfill, and I don't go around repeating someone else's mantra blindly.

I look for the truth, outside of all the bullsh*t various groups tend to build up around it." - Is there something that you DON'T excell at, Craig? It hasn't been discovered, to hear you talk about your favorite subject...which, of course, is YOU...but....but...but how is one supposed to "get around" YOUR bullshit?

"I have no choice but to read the "right" material my friend, because I read ANYTHING and EVERYTHING in making my decisions and developing my opinions. When shown I am wrong, I change my opinions. I learned long ago, that it is MUCH easier to change a wrong opinion, than to spend your life in delusion, trying to maintain a wrong one." - I guess you just spend so much time reading that you haven't had a chance to brush up on your ppl skills...well...between your reading up on every subject & talking with God & all...Hey! How's the prophesy stuff going?

"I think Obama could have been a pivotal person in this election for numerous reasons, but I also feel, now, that he may very well have blown that chance. "

"Obama's done. There is no chance in hell of him becoming president." - Ooooh...not so good, eh?

"You are illogical.

But that doesn't matter, because you are inspired by personal animosity, and not logic anyway. I get that you don't like me. I'll live. But I still try and commend you on the points I find commendable, and yet, when I do, you RARELY say thank you. I rise above this, and continue to praise the things in you I find praiseworthy.

Something motivates you to hate, and not be civil enough to say a simple "thank you".

Something motivates me to love, and find value, even in people that hate me." - where were we again? Oh yeah! The loving guy that you are...

"Grow the f*ck up.

You are a wounded little boy, and you have hurt a great many people in your life as a result, because you are so angry over the injustices done to you, both real and perceived. It's time to grow up and time to own up. God has been after you for a very long while, and you spit on Him constantly.

Your life would have been far different by now, but you refused to walk through any of the doors God opened for you, and chose to feel sorry for yourself instead.

You can't admit how true this is, because you work so hard to make people think you are something you never were.

You cannot fake a life, any better than Christian Lee can fake a musical career.

God loves you in spite of what you have done to others." - I like that one, cuz you can put me down AND Mr. Lee. Quite clever, for such a "loving" guy. AND you got to tell me again how much "God loves me," too! DAMN you're one fine preacher, Craig! I am SO humbled by you!

"Paul, you are a hypocrite, pure and simple. "

"Shame on you."

"Your position is insanity, and it makes me question your character."

"You are no better than the Pharisees of Jesus' day." - Yep! A TRULY loving guy!

"My library seemed to rival ancient Alexandria's."

"I read lots of articles from the net, everything from all the typical news sources, to english versions of foreign media, to liberal rags like The Huffington Post and Mother Jones. I also watch (or listen) to news channels and education channels all day long. I'm both a news junkie and a history buff. I have been since I was in my 20's.

I have a pretty fair knowledge about many things."

"No one can make me racist..."

"I found a long time ago, that life is better, and more honest, when you admit you are wrong, accept the truth and move on. No worming around, is ever needed afterward, and there is the side benefit of getting to be "right" on that particular issue the next time.

Try it!"

"I am told I appear in several documentaries. And there are students in various universities worldwide who have done projects and educational papers on my life."

"...I became world renowned as an expert on this group."

"Of course I am proud of my qualities."

"I am a FAIR MINDED person, which is why you find me on alternate sides of the aisle, depending on the issue.

That alone disproves your theory that I am an extreme ANYTHING. "

"Travelled on the road in a band across the country at 12 years old, for 6 years. Had their original music played on a dozen radio stations. Been interviewed worldwide by major newspapers, radio stations and national television. Met countless celebrities, world leaders, Presidents, Kings and Queens and heads of state. Performed internationally in several countries. Had a book written about me, and been mentioned in a dozen other books.

These are only a few of the experiences I have had. All of which can be found through Google.

Am I supposed to think this is normal for most people?"

"You are illogical.

But that doesn't matter, because you are inspired by personal animosity, and not logic anyway. I get that you don't like me. I'll live. But I still try and commend you on the points I find commendable, and yet, when I do, you RARELY say thank you. I rise above this, and continue to praise the things in you I find praiseworthy.

Something motivates you to hate, and not be civil enough to say a simple "thank you".

Something motivates me to love, and find value, even in people that hate me."

"...MILLIONS of Japanese know me by name..." - Oh yes! I can FEEL your humility, too, Craig!

There ya go, Craig. I'll bet I've saved you thousands of paragraphs, innumerable pages of useless text, right there! Can you just stfu, now?

"I'm not divisive.

The things I say and the arguments I make are divisive." - I do so love that one!

So what's next?

" I will be developing a website and forum for these views, and will try and limit discussing any of them here.

I'll let everyone know when I have the foundation for this up and running, so those who are interested, or merely curious can pervue the information I present. " - Have you done that, yet, Craig? Time's a-wastin'! Why spend all this time right here, when there's a whole world of ppl you can go brag to, & put down, & berate, & try to humiliate, & teach about God's love, & all those other things that you do so well!

I mean, it's pretty certain that you haven't changed a single person's mind on any single subject, bub! And we all can see how you feel about that -

"Thanks for sharing that all of the facts I have shared have not resulted in your mind expanding even the slightest bit, toward the idea that you may actually be wrong in some of your views.

That's awesome!

I feel just peachy about that!

Thanks for sharing." - No, Craig. Thank YOU, for sharing so much about your most interesting self, & for making everything that you become involved in such a friiken JOY.

You keep claiming that ppl draw all of this info out of you, that you were perfectly happy to keep the wonder that is you a secret, or something, if only ppl would stop talking about you!

The person who talks this much about you is you, Craig. I only intervene when I deem it appropriate to curb your self-inflating ego, cuz I'm afraid that if I didn't, you might just explode over all of us in your zeal for your new-found religion what worships the wonder that is you.

Don't EVEN tell me that I've misused your quotes, or that I've "taken you out of context." The context of everything above is pretty plain to see.

"Find your way out of this one.

You can't."

Do us all a favor, Craig -


GET SOME GOOD PROFESSIONAL HELP, CRAIG!!!!

Philbymon, your argument has some very good points, but when you degrade the criticism with the same mockery and insults you complain about, you lose validity.