General Music Chat

I am not declaring anything better than anything else, but I want clarification from people when they make statements. I have been taught differently than them, so I am curious. Its all supposed to be the same purpose, but doesn't seem to work out that way.

When we condem another for being "self richeous" does that not make us self richeous?
Funny that.

Paul, is your church incorporated?

No, autonomous. The only church government that is instructed in the bible is elders (Husband of one wife, above reproach etc Titus 1:5 - 9), and deacons(1 Tim 3:12). Adding any government above that is adding to the bible. I.E. Local, State, National church leaders or councils etc.

Where did your minister become ordained?

The Memphis School of preaching.

If not part of the "Church of Christ", is his ordainment only recognized in your church and by your community, or is he ordained in the "Church of Christ"?

He just has degrees in Bible. Not ordained that I know of. He is a walking bible. He uses scripture non stop as he preaches, and puts it overhead where we can read it. You can ask him a question, throw him a part of a verse and he can either quote it or find it in short order. He uses Greek Hebrew and Latin for reference.

Then comes our part. We have to look it up to make sure what he's teaching is right according to the bible.

Acts 17:11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

Not kidding...

My way of worshiping god is better than your way
My church is better than your church
My GOD is better than your GOD .... ect.

Seen this playout way to many times ... Self-righteous

My way is not better than anyone's. I am just a man. But God's way, clear as a bell, is the only way I will worship. I don't have a church. There is one God.

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

When we condem another for being "self richeous" does that not make us self richeous?
Funny that.

Word

Holy sh*t!!! Where am I going to find a man above reproach?

No offense Paul but I think mankind via the Jews and Romans CRUCIFIED our one and only "man above reproach".

Perhaps you can share some thoughts on this one with me.
Here, or privatly if you prefer.

I don't understand why musical instruments are forbidden?

They aren't forbidden. They just aren't commanded. If it's not commanded then there is not only no reason to use them but it's adding to God's design for the church to add them.

I see the lines in Amos and Ezekiel that you probably will quote to respond to this, but in context they refer to man, not God. To God, as David instructed when he wrote his psalms, a harp, flute, and trumpet are pleasing to God and should be used in worship.

There are many instances of old testament worship that are no longer used. Sacrificing Animals is one. We are under the new covenant now that Christ died. The new testament is our guide for exampls and commands of worship.

I would also like to address the fact that the bible declares that Jesus is a "decendant of David" in numerous places. Up to and including Revelations. If Jesus was concieved by the Holy Spirit and placed in a Virgin, how is he the decendant of David? Doesn't that remove the notion that when He said He is "one with the Father" that he is God and that instead he was referring to the rituals he practiced back then, the ritual of transfiguration? That one was in the book of Adam and Eve, Thomas, Thomas' Infancy Gospel, Book of Jubilees, and more. All of which were in use in the earliest Church of Christ, but are no longer practiced anywhere but the Phillipines and some third world countries that haven't yet heard that the bible has been consolodated?

I don't have anything for these thoughts. Sorry.

Holy sh*t!!! Where am I going to find a man above reproach?

No offense Paul but I think mankind via the Jews and Romans CRUCIFIED our one and only "man above reproach".

Perhaps you can share some thoughts on this one with me.
Here, or privatly if you prefer.

The sure did crucify our only "man above reproach".

Well, it can't mean sinless since no one except Christ is. But several requirements are...
no striker, not a brawler, blameless, husband of one wife (rules out women elders, and the 20 something single guy "elders" on their bikes)

Titus 1:6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.

1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

My brother in law became an elder a few years ago. He's not sinless of course. But I can't think of anything bad about him. I think that's above reproach. He's super nice and steps up to the VERY tough jobs elders are required to do. Church discipline for instance - 2 Thessalonians 3:6. He has kids who are faithful Christians. He is knowledgeable in the word and teaches..

One of our elders was an elder for my whole life. His wife died a year or so ago. He stepped down as an elder as he was no longer qualified under the "husband of one wife" guideline.

It was really sad. He still gives guidance and encouragement.

I would also like to address the fact that the bible declares that Jesus is a "decendant of David" in numerous places. Up to and including Revelations. If Jesus was concieved by the Holy Spirit and placed in a Virgin, how is he the decendant of David?

Jesus is a biological decendant of David through Mary's lineage.

And He is a legal descendant of David through Joseph's lineage, as the adopted son of Joseph. An adopted son has all the rights of a biological heir in Jewish law.

.

Acts 17:11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

But what scripture did they study? It wasn't the scripture you and I study because the Jewish scriptures they had access to are mostly removed from the bible. So if you are studying scripture that is not the same as the scripture that Paul spoke of, then how is it you are following Jesus' teachings? Jesus used the same scripture as Paul. You and I use scripture that is not all inclusive on that, because a group of men got together and decided what was no longer needed. You can say they were inspired by God to do so, but doesn't that very statement contradict every single belief you have about altering the scripture?

I would also like to address the fact that the bible declares that Jesus is a "decendant of David" in numerous places. Up to and including Revelations. If Jesus was concieved by the Holy Spirit and placed in a Virgin, how is he the decendant of David?

Jesus is a biological decendant of David through Mary's lineage.

And He is a legal descendant of David through Joseph's lineage, as the adopted son of Joseph. An adopted son has all the rights of a biological heir in Jewish law.

.

First, Mary's lineage was never clearly determined, it went through Joseph's lineage in the gospel. Matthew 1:16 and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, and Mary was the mother of Jesus who is called the Messiah.

Second, they didn't have adoption back then.

I do believe the passing of one wife and the taking of one wife after the passing of the first would still quailfy.

But it sure leaves fornicating adulterous scumbags like me out of the loop.

Acts 17:11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

But what scripture did they study? It wasn't the scripture you and I study because the Jewish scriptures they had access to are mostly removed from the bible. So if you are studying scripture that is not the same as the scripture that Paul spoke of, then how is it you are following Jesus' teachings? Jesus used the same scripture as Paul. You and I use scripture that is not all inclusive on that, because a group of men got together and decided what was no longer needed. You can say they were inspired by God to do so, but doesn't that very statement contradict every single belief you have about altering the scripture?

The example is to study the scripture to make sure the teachers are telling the truth. God has the power to maintain his complete will. He promised the bible contains all we need to know. God cannot lie. If God can create the 23 1/2 degree tilt that gives us the seasons and the intricate dance of the cosmos he can maintain his complete will.

Acts 17:11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

But what scripture did they study? It wasn't the scripture you and I study because the Jewish scriptures they had access to are mostly removed from the bible. So if you are studying scripture that is not the same as the scripture that Paul spoke of, then how is it you are following Jesus' teachings? Jesus used the same scripture as Paul. You and I use scripture that is not all inclusive on that, because a group of men got together and decided what was no longer needed. You can say they were inspired by God to do so, but doesn't that very statement contradict every single belief you have about altering the scripture?

The example is to study the scripture to make sure the teachers are telling the truth. God has the power to maintain his complete will. He promised the bible contains all we need to know. God cannot lie. If God can create the 23 1/2 degree tilt that gives us the seasons and the intricate dance of the cosmos he can maintain his complete will.

I suppose that is the best answer anyone could give on that subject. Thank you. I still have my doubts, but you have respectfully conveyed your belief structure so that I understand it. We will all find out for sure eventually who was right and about what.

There are many instances of old testament worship that are no longer used. Sacrificing Animals is one.

That may have something to do with the fact that Jesus, the sinless son of God was the sacrifice to end all blood sacrifices. Ya think?

But instruments sound the same in the Old Testament as in the New.

You are ADDING to the scriptures by Prohibiting them.

If the New Testament does not specifically, require something in worship, then it would be left open to the judgement of the elders of the church, NOT PROHIBITED OUTRIGHT, merely because of ommission.

There is no example or requirement of using a microphone and PA in church, and your church has DECIDED that this is appropriate, regardless of the lack of precedent or example. Musical instruments should be the same. If you are going to use microphones, you should allow musical instruments.

The verses about singing are mentioned in LETTERS.

If the church were poor, and all they had was their bodies, then of course, they were singing to create music. They had nothing else at the time. This was a POOR and NEWLY FORMED RELIGION Paul. The Bible details the disciples own arguments and discussions over what should be correct or not. That is not "God breathed" it is men, not unlike YOU or ME, that are doing the best they can, making decisions for what should be done, and what is best. There are verses speaking AGAINST eating food sacrificed to idols, and verses speaking FOR eating food sacrificed to idols.

You claim to be freed from the law, and yet all you do is re-establish the law. Why are their even arguments, when everything is "God brethed"? Was God arguing with Himself?

Clearly, the disciples, were faithfully, trying to mke the best decisions they could. It is not all set in stone, as you would have it. When Jesus was with His disciples, sometimes they washed their hands, and other times they did not. Breaking Jewish rules as they did, it is VERY conceivable that neither Jesus, NOR His disciples, would have been allowed as members of your church.

Think about that. Understand how real a possibility that would have been, had you been back in Jesus' day. You would have judged Him, using your precious rules. He was a rule breaker on occassion, because RULES WERE MADE FOR MEN, not MEN FOR RULES.

It is about THE HEART.

The heart Paul.

How could instruments played in love for God possibly offend God?

There are instruments used by God's people in the Old Testament. There are instruments being played in Heaven.

But you believe that just "in between" God wanted a space of silence where instruments were concerned, but not vocals.

How STUPID is that?

What kind of tyrannical maniac would God be?

"Hmm... Ok, I had you guys playing instruments to worship me for thousands of years... I'm bored with that now, although I will let the instruments continue in Heaven, and I will let them play at the last days, but for now... no instruments... but you can sing. If your vocal chords are producing the vibrations making sounds, that is acceptable unto me, but if something else is making the vibrations producing sounds, that is NOT acceptable to me. BWAHAHAHA!!!"

The church was POOR Paul.

What if none of the earliest Christians KNEW how to play an instrument?

The church didn't have MANY things it does now, or opportunities it does now. Resources it does now.

But you don't mind microphones. You don't mind stained glass windows. Where is the example for those? You don't mind PA systems. You don't mind suits. Where is the example for that either? No examples for shoes either. No example for a person leading the music in service either. No example for air-conditioning. No example for PEWS. No examples for BUILDINGS used only for services. No examples for TOO MANY THINGS that you do without problem.

Can't you understand that one or two hillbillies, got a bug up their butts because of the advent of the Organ, and with their holier than thou attitude, they FOUND FAULT with it, because Organs were "worldly" at the time.

How it must suck for God, that He inspires technologies in us, that can create beautiful things, like music, but the tight-assed religionists, who love their self-righteouness more than they love their FATHER in Heaven, PREVENT God from enjoying that music being lifted up to Him in a worship service. How it must suck to watch satan get praised with instruments, while God has to hear a bunch of local-yokels singing off key, en masse, because some country bumpkin thinks he has a higher standard than everyone else, and gets a bunch of dumbasses to follow his legalistic crap.

And then they tell others how Christ freed them from the Law!

Wow!

No wonder atheism is advancing faster than Christianity today.

No wonder.

If this keeps up, before long, Christianity in large groups, will only be found among mountain people in West Virginia.

"Hey elrod, spray that sprinkler in the air again! Look Ma, We're sprayin' the sprinkler, and God is settin' his rainbow in it ever' time, so God will remember his promise not to flood us! He does it ever' single time ma!!! Call the papers ma!!! This is it!!! Proof of God ma!!! Ever' time I spray the sprinkler God promises me not to flood us again!!!"

"Elrod, your floodin' the damn house! Now put that sprinkler up!"



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