General Music Chat

The same error prone brain responsible for textual criticism is also responsible for coming up with scientific theories, and then trying to show a possible solution that works. Ironically, because you find one solution that explains the theory doesn't mean there isn't another one that also explains it, but scientists usually stop at the first success and call that truth. Utility does not equal truth.

The difference is that science is NOT a religion, which claims absolute truth IN SPITE of evidence to the contrary. Faith is not required in science, testable results are.

And you are wrong, that scientists stop at the first success. It is possible that a scientist who has a personal success will publish his results, but then what happens? Scientists from ALL OVER THE WORLD will then work to replicate his results, and independently CONFIRM whether he was correct or not.

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1. Faith is required in science, Craig. Don't fool yourself.
2. "Stopping at the first success" is analogy for saying they can't know all all of the possible theories since man has a finite mind.

Isn't it more true to say that the new testament, especially parts like the letters of paul, are not necessarily the word of God? They read more like instructions from the leader of a new church to those who follow the new church and are learning the practices. They are obviously written by a man who was inspired by what he witnessed, but letters none-the-less.

When I say the church that christ started was the roman catholic church, I don't mean the spirit of worship that christ started, I mean the physical church itself, the denomination. I do understand your meaning of Church of Christ, Paul, the entire body of Christians throughout the world, regardless of denomination or tradition, however, the church you are in has its own traditions and practices based on their own interpretation of the bible. Each denomination has their own interpretation. Some bibles still have in them books that other bibles dont. The Quo'ran has the infancy gospel of Jesus which illustrates his own "path to enlightenment" through the first three miracles he performed. The phillipino orthodox christian still uses the bible that contains the book of Jubilees, which has rituals you dont necessarily practice in your church.

I think Paul and Craig, you both have a relationship with your God in your own way. I also think that the entire point is to test the "heart". Love truly IS God's way as craig said, but also is purity. Any who seek God the Father, with a pure heart, shall find him. Those who don't know Jesus because they haven't heard, are not to be cast away. The end of days shall not come until ALL have heard the word in ALL the lands, so judgement wont come to the uninformed.

Hello BobdoB, I see you're a blues guy. I was in a blues band in New Jersey from 1980 to 1987 with Jersey Bill Miller. He's a very fine classic blues guitarist and does some very good T-Bone Walker and Freddy King, among others. Do you know him?

I think I saw him with a group at the stone pony once, long time ago though, may have been in the 80s. I was just starting high school. That is, if its the same guy, I'm pretty sure it is. I like to think of my sound as a cross between SRV, BB, and Ry, mixed with a little new age stuff. Saving up for the protools set up and maybe get some tracks up online.

Jersey Bill Miller has played all over NJ, could have been him. He's been pretty reclusive lately. I just talked to him today on the telephone. He called me from the steps of the Capitol in Washington D.C. of all places, he's on vacation. He's a fine player. If you want to hear real vintage renditions of Chicago blues guitarists he's your man...

1. Faith is required in science, Craig. Don't fool yourself.

Not in the way of religion.

Faith is basically belief in something WITHOUT evidence.

Science requires evidence to prove hypothesis that are proposed.

It's really unfair to compare having a hypothesis, to religious faith.

We probably can agree however, that some scientists USE scientific results for their own agendas, i.e making a stretch that there is no God, because some scientific evidence has disproved certain statements found in the Bible.

This would be unprofessional and also not in keeping with scientific principles.

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He asked us to sing. That is all he said about music. It's so easy.

There is no guidance offered in the New Testament regarding musicial instruments Paul. Neither FOR nor AGAINST. The fact that YOUR GROUP has decided there IS an admonition against it, is ADDING to scripture, is it not? God's people the Jews used musical instruments in worship, and it was pleasing to God. The early Christian church was comprised of Jews, and it is likely, that at some point musical instruments were used in church, as was their tradition, and as had pleased God in previous generations. The bible says that God doesn't change, therefore, isn't it reasonable that He has not stopped enjoying praise to Him through musical instruments in worship?

Or are you saying that God really does change? And decided He didn't want to be praised by musical instruments any longer?

And once again...

The early Christians ABSOLUTELY shared EVERYTHING in common. Your church doesn't let their self-righteousness go that far though, do they?



Money is the great dividing line isn't it?

The Churches of Christ primarily split with the Christian Churches over the use of musical instruments. The reasoning being that they DECIDED (remember, it wasn't always this way, even in YOUR own group) they DECIDED that anything not specifically mentioned in the New Testament concerning worship, would be prohibited.

But this is ALL personal bullsh*t by a few men, who FEARED that musical instruments were WORLDLY.

That's all.

That typical pig-headed traditionalism that also cause the Catholic Church to imprison and even kill, astronomers who dared to propose that the Earth revolved around the Sun, and not the other way around.

This is not a REAL theological issue. It is a PERSONAL OPINION of a few men, who created a RIFT and DIVIDE to have their way.

Although strangely, the CLEAR EXAMPLE of sharing everything in common with other Christians, well, they overlooked that clear example didn't they? And head coverings too. Is your wife committed to wearing her head covering? Paul ordered it. Is she following?

Funny how you can pick and choose which examples to follow and which to not follow huh?

You can be proud of yourself for your branch of church that separated from other churches, merely because someone brought an organ into church one day, but in your heart, you probably realize this is wrong, divisive, legalistic, and not in keeping with the heart and love of Christ.

I bet that you NEVER considered or were even aware of this issue, until you found your little break away group and they explained it all to you, neatly and nicely.

Now you're caught up in their long justification of themselves.

Why do you support it?

You don't give all your possessions to the church as the early church did. You can't morally or logically, hold onto ONE example that you are willing to follow, while not following ANOTHER example. How hypocritical is that? To use "following the example" as your moral justification for not allowing musicians to worship and honor the Lord with musical instruments, and yet YOU DO NOT FOLLOW the other example, of communal living?

What's stopping you from following "ALL" the disciples examples?

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He asked us to sing. That is all he said about music. It's so easy.

There is no guidance offered in the New Testament regarding musicial instruments Paul. Neither FOR nor AGAINST.

As you said no guidance..... for. Do smoky burnouts in the foyer on your harley if you like. It's adding to what he asked just the same. no matter what you say he still only asked us to sing.

The fact that YOUR GROUP has decided there IS an admonition against it, is ADDING to scripture, is it not?

It would be IF I actually said there is an admonition against it. But again. It speaks for singing ad that is all. I never said the was an admonition against it. Only instructions for singing. Therefore we sing. You try and try without scripture but the scripture still speaks. It's so simple and yet you are so stubborn on this.

Craig, it says to sing. Right? It doesn't say to play. Right? Then why are you still arguing? I never said the scriptures said playing was wrong. Only that singing is right. At this point you are straight trying to put words in my mouth.

You failed. You failed to use scripture. You failed to disprove that
A. the new testament church was told told to sing and
B. they were not told to play

God's people the Jews used musical instruments in worship, and it was pleasing to God. The early Christian church was comprised of Jews, and it is likely, that at some point musical instruments were used in church, as was their tradition, and as had pleased God in previous generations. The bible says that God doesn't change, therefore, isn't it reasonable that He has not stopped enjoying praise to Him through musical instruments in worship?

Or are you saying that God really does change? And decided He didn't want to be praised by musical instruments any longer?

Yes God changed. He no longer finds burning bulls to be a "sweet savor"

USE SCRIPTURE TO BACK YOUR ARGUMENTS. Obviously he would have asked fot it if he wanted it.

And once again...

The early Christians ABSOLUTELY shared EVERYTHING in common. Your church doesn't let their self-righteousness go that far though, do they?



Money is the great dividing line isn't it?

What do you even think that means?

Calling us self righteous is a sin Craig. you don't know our hearts. Stop it. You are being hateful - full of hate and showing some twisted bizarre animosity that I can't even fathom. even when you've gotten straight wicked with your comments I still had faith that your heart was right. Now I don't know.

You never respond when the scriptures refute your view points. Craig, miracles ceased. God does not talk to you. You don't know my heart.

You are persecuting me for following the bible. Dude! Get a clue. Romans 14:13

The Churches of Christ primarily split with the Christian Churches over the use of musical instruments. The reasoning being that they DECIDED (remember, it wasn't always this way, even in YOUR own group) they DECIDED that anything not specifically mentioned in the New Testament concerning worship, would be prohibited.

But this is ALL personal bullsh*t by a few men, who FEARED that musical instruments were WORLDLY.
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The church I worship with is not joined with those churches or any other church. Even other Churches of Christ.. we are autonomous (that is bibliblcally authorized) and we can read and rightfully divide.

Oh look, here we are another paragraph and the scripture still says to sing... and that's it, regarding music. hmm. and I will still do that. Imagine that looking to scripture for guidance and not spouting hate and opinions.

That typical pig-headed traditionalism that also cause the Catholic Church to imprison and even kill, astronomers who dared to propose that the Earth revolved around the Sun, and not the other way around..

so following clear scripture guidelines for worship that is decent and orderly and obeying them is a tradition? It's not Craig you are cornered again and again.

This is not a REAL theological issue. It is a PERSONAL OPINION of a few men, who created a RIFT and DIVIDE to have their way...

It is NOT a personal opinion that the scriptures say to sing. It is not a personal opinion that they don't say to play. It is a fact. This is another paragraph you will conveniently skip when you try to retort. I respond with scripture to your arguments. You respond with angry opinions.

Although strangely, the CLEAR EXAMPLE of sharing everything in common with other Christians, well, they overlooked that clear example didn't they? And head coverings too. Is your wife committed to wearing her head covering? Paul ordered it. Is she following?

Funny how you can pick and choose which examples to follow and which to not follow huh?

We do not pick and choose. That is your game. You say parts of the God breathed word are myth.

You can be proud of yourself for your branch of church that separated from other churches, merely because someone brought an organ into church one day, but in your heart, you probably realize this is wrong, divisive, legalistic, and not in keeping with the heart and love of Christ.

I am only proud of sticking to my convictions, the bible, and to refuting your scriptureless ramblings. If I follow scripture and you do not it is YOU who has divided yourself from the Church Christ started.

In your heart you need to be ashamed of encouraging me to go against the bible AND my conscience. You are clearly being a stumbling block.

I bet that you NEVER considered or were even aware of this issue, until you found your little break away group and they explained it all to you, neatly and nicely.

Now you're caught up in their long justification of themselves.

Here's your long justification. You might recognize it by now. Ready? It's long.

The new testament says to sing. (Colossians 3:16).

Why do you support it?.

because The new testament says to sing. (Colossians 3:16).

You don't give all your possessions to the church as the early church did. You can't morally or logically, hold onto ONE example that you are willing to follow, while not following ANOTHER example. How hypocritical is that? To use "following the example" as your moral justification for not allowing musicians to worship and honor the Lord with musical instruments, and yet YOU DO NOT FOLLOW the other example, of communal living?

What's stopping you from following "ALL" the disciples examples?

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Ananias and Sapphira were told that they could have kept all of the proceeds from the sale of their land. They were struck dead because they lied.

We are instructed in the new testament to...

1 cor 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

We are told to give some. There were some who were told to give all (the rich young ruler) and some who were told to give some. we are told to care for our families as well. we do that with money God blesses us with.

I am a member of Christs Church. No matter how you spout from
" First opinions Chapter Craig verse stumbling block" I will continue to stand for the truth you and I both can read. Perhaps your time in the cult gave you a strange lust for power but it doesn't work on me.


There is no hocus pocus. No "I feel" or "I think" or "I dreamt." There is only the God breathed truth for me to trust. Until you trust that you will fight and struggle. The truth will always remain the same. God loves us and gives us all we need to know how to serve him.

2 peter 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

Hey, Paul. I was wondering, does your church just sing the old traditional songs, or do you bring in some new ones? I was just thinking about how everyone would learn a new melody a Capella.

We sing some from the psalms, from a few centuries ago - 1700's, 1800,'s, 1900's, all the way up to the 90's. I like the ones from about 1880 - 1940 the best for some reason. I know they influenced some of my song writing. I've written 3 I'm ready to introduce. What I'll do is get together with a handful of good singers, teach them, share it then with the youth, and then have a core of about 20 good singers who know them well. Then I can lead them to the church of about 180 members.

Paul, is your church incorporated? Where did your minister become ordained? If not part of the "Church of Christ", is his ordainment only recognized in your church and by your community, or is he ordained in the "Church of Christ"?

" Perhaps your time in the cult gave you a strange lust for power but it doesn't work on me. "

I liked that one. It needed to be repeated. Thanks, Paul.

Genesis 31:27
Why did you run off secretly and deceive me? Why didn't you tell me, so I could send you away with joy and singing to the music of tambourines and harps?

1Kings 10:12

The king used the almugwood to make supports for the temple of the LORD and for the royal palace, and to make harps and lyres for the musicians. So much almugwood has never been imported or seen since that day.)

Revelation 18:21-23

I am not writing that one out, but in that verse St. John speaks of the end of days, when the meteor will strike, and NY will be pummelled. It is a punishment in the end of days that the harps and flutes and trumpets will be silenced.

I don't understand why musical instruments are forbidden?

I see the lines in Amos and Ezekiel that you probably will quote to respond to this, but in context they refer to man, not God. To God, as David instructed when he wrote his psalms, a harp, flute, and trumpet are pleasing to God and should be used in worship.

I would also like to address the fact that the bible declares that Jesus is a "decendant of David" in numerous places. Up to and including Revelations. If Jesus was concieved by the Holy Spirit and placed in a Virgin, how is he the decendant of David? Doesn't that remove the notion that when He said He is "one with the Father" that he is God and that instead he was referring to the rituals he practiced back then, the ritual of transfiguration? That one was in the book of Adam and Eve, Thomas, Thomas' Infancy Gospel, Book of Jubilees, and more. All of which were in use in the earliest Church of Christ, but are no longer practiced anywhere but the Phillipines and some third world countries that haven't yet heard that the bible has been consolodated?

good grief..

Not kidding...

My way of worshiping god is better than your way
My church is better than your church
My GOD is better than your GOD .... ect.

Seen this playout way to many times ... Self-righteous