General Music Chat

I heard an interesting reasoning about hypocrites and attending services. It was said that a guy didn't want to be around "all the hypocrites at church". Then someone let him know if they are hypocrites they won't be in heaven. So if they prevent you from going to church and you don't learn, fellowship, worship, and grow and obtain heaven guess who will be with you forever in the ... ehem... other place?

that is a valid point and why you need to have your own personal relationship and not follow blindly into hypocracy

Actually its a point about following Christ, following the God's clear written will for us in the bible.

Mike,

I am not splitting hairs, I am making an important distinction. Alot of well meaning Christians would turn this country into a THEOCRACY. They use the fact that many of the settlers were Christian, but they forget the fact, that those same Christians were FLEEING state religion in England. They are also well meaning in their desire to have state sponsored ELEMENTS of Christianity in place, such as posting the 10 commandments in government buildings, etc... But the only chance ANYONE has of PROTECTING their right to freely practice their religion, is when the government stays OUT of religion, and it is a LEVEL PLAYING FIELD. That should be all ANY religious person should want or need.

Craig, reread what I wrote. We are arguing the same side of the issue

Craig, reread what I wrote. We are arguing the same side of the issue

You accused me of splitting hairs. I disagreed and felt I was making a distinction that was important. So, I was responding to that particular criticism. I realize that we agree on the principles of religious freedom and that we both oppose theocratic government.

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It's also interesting how non-Christians know so much more about what it means to be a Christian than a Christian themself. Would that logic work on any other group? Do you also know more about what being a Native American means, than Native Americans themselves do? Do you know more about how NASA engineers should function, than NASA engineers do?

I was (attempted) to be raised a christian, that being said, I think I can say I know a little about it, even though I'm not a practicing one.

All that being said, I go by what christians themselves claim themselves to be (as a group), and then decide for myself based on their individual AND group actions. That may seem judgmental, but I'm not one who ever claimed I wasn't.

WORLD OPINION:

This nation is referred to as a Christian nation because it is the predominant religion here.

CHRISTIAN OPINION:

Following the precedents of God dealing with NATIONS as a whole, Christians tend to regard this nation as FOUNDED by Christian men, and upholding Christian values, and believe that God blesses a nation that honors Him.

In the absolute strictest sense, there is no such thing as a Christian nation, since NATIONS cannot become "Christians".

I agree that nations (or societies) can't "be" ANY one de-facto religion...

But we'll accept that your real purpose here is to TRASH your own country, and demean it.

So you think that using dishonest arguments and drawing unsavory conclusions is a good, wholesome christian value?

Now, if you really believe this, then it begs the questions:

1) Which country is NOT bad, like we are?

2) Why aren't you living there instead? Since it is so much better.

I can't really answer those questions since you drew those conclusions, not me...

Although, as scummy as most of out fore-fathers were,

Scummy as compared to who? By whom, or by what, are you measuring their character by?

Scummy people own slaves, support indentured servitude, use their wealth to keep poor people at each other's throats, etc.. ALL of the "founding fathers" were WEALTHY land owners that used their positions of wealth to secure power in this new found land. Did you know, for instance, that the original constitution only allowed land-owners to vote? Only the wealthiest of folks back then owned any.. a nice way to ensure their own kind were the only ones in elected offices...

their #1 priorities were freedom of religion (which includes freedom FROM religion), freedom of speech, one's ability to pursue happiness as they see fit, and the right to defend themselves from tyranny.

I just don't see any of that taking priority anymore,

Taking priority by whom? The current administration? Politicians in general? The citizens?

By anyone! Religion has become a tax-free corporation, whose lobbying efforts rival that of the most powerful corporations in the country. Face it, our government has been taken over by corporations. You are hard pressed to find 1 in 1000 politicians who aren't 100% corrupt, and good luck finding a politician who isn't completely removed from the common man. It's all a big bullshit smokescreen, song and dance.

Even the history lessons they teach in school are one-sided and taught from the viewpoints of the winners... why do we have "Columbus Day" when that guy murdered, no ... genocided (via his "men") an entire civilization of natives in the tropics, and chopped off the hands of women and children who couldn't mine enough gold per day to make him happy? WTF? We admire such traits? But.. most people don't even know such things.

We, as a society are willfully ignorant and blind to past, and CURRENT atrocities, like these two fooked up wars that kill more civilians than enemies we're currently stuck in. And here we are full-circle, corporations (bomb makers, planes, guns, etc.. "military industrial complex") dictating policy, joe america getting his arms and legs blown off for effin corporate profits.. and you have the gall to say I'm hate america? well at least I don't support blowing off our (or (insert middle eastern countries name here) !!) childrens' legs for $$.

Can you elaborate? You are making HUGE sweeping generalizations, and it would be informative to understand WHO EXACTLY you are referring to, and WHAT EXACTLY they are doing that proves a "far, far, different story"

.

Maybe I went off kilter there, but I stand by what I said. Everyone thinks everything is so great, and never really bothers to ask why the rest of the world seems to hate us so much (americans, AND various religions), and maybe.. just maybe, they hate US, for not standing up to our government's corruption and brutality.

Look at Iran.. far less free.. and look at how many people gave their live to stand up to a rigged election... yet it's common knowledge in the USA that the 2000 election, regardless of how you want to count the votes, was in fact STOLEN, via a supreme court decision to STOP COUNTING VOTES, and declare a winner.... if that ain't stealing.. I don't know what is..

and what did we (The people) do?

Nothing.

Since then, can anyone wonder why bankers, politicians, insurance co's, etc.. are all pillaging the public funds/trust? Cause we let them.

just stay divided on stupid wedge issues... religion being one of them. Thats what they want.

Craig, reread what I wrote. We are arguing the same side of the issue

You accused me of splitting hairs. I disagreed and felt I was making a distinction that was important. So, I was responding to that particular criticism. I realize that we agree on the principles of religious freedom and that we both oppose theocratic government.

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I accused you of splitting hairs over the difference between saying christian nation and nationalized religion. You were hung up on the point that the nation itself isn't a person and therefor cant have a religion when the point behind it was they meant nationalized religion when they referred to christian nation. wasnt saying you were splitting hairs on the issue itself...I don't think anyone considers the physical united states as a believer, so thats why I said it was a turnoff to bring that particular point up in an argument, it sounds condescending

The religious and the musician; other than those with lunacy (which both can sit on the edge of) are definitely the most passionate of people's!

Mike I COMPLETELY understand how it goes; on my first show as a concert producer the little things are what sunk the ship. I thought I could do it all on my own and did well with the big stuff. It was just more than I could cover alone. A 2 day event and I lost $10,000. After 1 1/2 years and 5 more shows I wound up $500 ahead (not very good pay). I merged with a video production company and attempted to buy the Southgate House in Newport, Ky... At the press release party with many pertinent mover's & shaker's from the Cincinnati media world in attendance, my new partner shows up with a little hoe that I introduced him to as a hookup and they were both totally trashed. This is my partner Jeff..... dream smashed! He also sat in a meeting with me and a hostile convention center owner that was dead set against us ever having another show @ his location... he never opened his mouth on time. I walked out 1 hr later with a 3 show contract but with no help what soever from him!
It is a very stressful vocation!!!

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It is just as likely that "The God's" were advanced civilization's of terrestrial or extraterrestrial origin's as it is the stories in the severely adulterated Holy Bible. Not sayin I think that is the case, just that there is as much evidence for one as the other!


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Facebook group/Hayden King

"It is what it is"

Hi Ryan. I think this is a very closed minded perception of spirituality. How do you know that you're right?

John 8:32 "and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Hi Paul. Yes, I'm familiar with these scriptures being a former Christian. I just happen to disagree with the Jesus portrayed in the bible being a divine savior. I find the bible to have some historical significance, and it has some fantastic stories teaching morality.

The books of the bible were not written by the originally enlightened people of whom God appeared to. Rather, the authors were people who had heard these stories and told them through many, many generations of word of mouth storytelling. There was no TV or radio back then; the tribes came together and had storytelling as their entertainment. We have actual anthropological evidence to back this up. If you ever played the telephone game in school, you know that the message you whispered in the ear of your first classmate has already changed by the third or fourth person down the line. By the end of the game, the last person to hear the message usually confirms a completely different verbal passage than what you started the game with.

That's my issue with the interpretation of the bible -- there were too many people that told these stories and too many changes that undoubtedly found their ways into the writer's manuscripts for these passages to dubbed, "real," or "true" in their entirety from an historical standpoint. This is a big part of why I can't believe everything written in the bible. Just my point of view -- its not right for me.

I also understand that truth lies in perception, and what is true to me may not be true to anyone else, and vice versa. I completely respect that you live with the Christian faith and you believe in the bible. I'm willing to agree to disagree and to share a mutual peace and respect. Have a great day Paul.

It is just as likely that "The God's" were advanced civilization's of terrestrial or extraterrestrial origin's as it is the stories in the severely adulterated Holy Bible. Not sayin I think that is the case, just that there is as much evidence for one as the other!

You know Hayden, I have never really thought of spiritual things in this fashion. Thanks for introducing a new point of view, allowing people to open their minds to new possiblities.

The religious and the musician; other than those with lunacy (which both can sit on the edge of) are definitely the most passionate of people's!

Here here!!

Hayden, I feel ya...

As for the religion aspect, Pocketgrooves has pretty much word for word agreed with the way I feel about the significance of the bible...based in truth but subjected to the game of telephone for thousands of generations...as for the aliens, I believe they exist and have visited here, they mayans likely encountered extraterrestrials, hence their desire to flatten their heads to look like them...

It is only human arrogance that makes people believe we are the only "intelligent" life in the universe...and intelligent is a relative term...I have come to realize that you can meet intelligent people individually, but in group settings, people are nothing more than sheep, that is why most organized religions call them their flock....

Wow, leave for a while and the forum turns into a religous discussion

Truth is discovered, not created, therefore it's possible to believe something that is false.

Either God exists or God doesn't, irregardless if you believe it or not.

The unbeliever begins with the premise that God doesn't exist, and the believer begins with the premise that God does exist.

Those premises serve as the basis by which evidence is interpreted and and accepted.

Because man is finite and does not have comprehensive knowledge of every fact (we are always uncovering new evidence), a deductive truth claim cannot be made either for or against God's existence. That is to say, both sides using evidences for proof will always be limited by the current discoveries and can at best have a probability, never a definitive certainty because the conclusions are contingent on the future.

A belief can be reinforced by the current pool of known evidences interpreted based on one's premises, however future discoveries that may bulster or topple existing facts will keep both committments to God or NOT God as faith committments.

The best way to resolve the truth value of both committments is to view the entire systems as self-contained world-views and look for tensions within those systems that would undermine that system's ability to work correctly, if that system were in fact true.

For example, take two world views:
Worldview 1 says the world has every color except red.
Worldview 2 says the world has every color except blue.
Worldview 3 says the world has every color.

Niether system 1 or 2, if it were true, could explain the world we live in because the world we live in has both red and blue. By deduction, we would be justified in saying that Worldview 3 is coherent and given the choices, is the only true world view. You might come up with another Worldview 4, that has not yet been stated, however until it is presented for criticism, the choice is clear.

The same investigation can (and has and is) been (being) used to debate the existence of God. Can the claims of God explain our total experience as a world-view? Can athiesm as a system of thought explain our total experience?

I think that kind of approach to uncovering truth is a better approach to uncovering the Does God Exist question.


Chris

Wow, leave for a while and the forum turns into a religous discussion

Truth is discovered, not created, therefore it's possible to believe something that is false.

Either God exists or God doesn't, irregardless if you believe it or not.

The unbeliever begins with the premise that God doesn't exist, and the believer begins with the premise that God does exist.

Those premises serve as the basis by which evidence is interpreted and and accepted.

Because man is finite and does not have comprehensive knowledge of every fact (we are always uncovering new evidence), a deductive truth claim cannot be made either for or against God's existence. That is to say, both sides using evidences for proof will always be limited by the current discoveries and can at best have a probability, never a definitive certainty because the conclusions are contingent on the future.

A belief can be reinforced by the current pool of known evidences interpreted based on one's premises, however future discoveries that may bulster or topple existing facts will keep both committments to God or NOT God as faith committments.

The best way to resolve the truth value of both committments is to view the entire systems as self-contained world-views and look for tensions within those systems that would undermine that system's ability to work correctly, if that system were in fact true.

For example, take two world views:
Worldview 1 says the world has every color except red.
Worldview 2 says the world has every color except blue.
Worldview 3 says the world has every color.

Niether system 1 or 2, if it were true, could explain the world we live in because the world we live in has both red and blue. By deduction, we would be justified in saying that Worldview 3 is coherent and given the choices, is the only true world view. You might come up with another Worldview 4, that has not yet been stated, however until it is presented for criticism, the choice is clear.

The same investigation can (and has and is) been (being) used to debate the existence of God. Can the claims of God explain our total experience as a world-view? Can athiesm as a system of thought explain our total experience?

I think that kind of approach to uncovering truth is a better approach to uncovering the Does God Exist question.


Chris

Well stated, anyone who is 100% sure has stopped looking and therefore cannot ever find the whole truth.

anyone who is 100% sure has stopped looking and therefore cannot ever find the whole truth.

That's probably the dumbest thing I've ever heard anyone say...ever. It makes absolutely no sense.

I'm 100% sure BECAUSE I've found the truth. You're just still searching because you've refused to accept that truth.

anyone who is 100% sure has stopped looking and therefore cannot ever find the whole truth.

That's probably the dumbest thing I've ever heard anyone say...ever. It makes absolutely no sense.

I'm 100% sure BECAUSE I've found the truth. You're just still searching because you've refused to accept that truth.

whatever dude, I'm glad you're so sure...good luck with that on the day of reckoning.