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What is your religion?

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#81562 by CraigMaxim
Fri Sep 04, 2009 2:41 am
Kramerguy wrote:I find it interesting that Christians preach tolerance and acceptance, respect, etc..


It's also interesting how non-Christians know so much more about what it means to be a Christian than a Christian themself. Would that logic work on any other group? Do you also know more about what being a Native American means, than Native Americans themselves do? Do you know more about how NASA engineers should function, than NASA engineers do?

Kramerguy wrote:Yet, most will claim the USA is a "Christian Nation"...


WORLD OPINION:

This nation is referred to as a Christian nation because it is the predominant religion here.

CHRISTIAN OPINION:

Following the precedents of God dealing with NATIONS as a whole, Christians tend to regard this nation as FOUNDED by Christian men, and upholding Christian values, and believe that God blesses a nation that honors Him.

In the absolute strictest sense, there is no such thing as a Christian nation, since NATIONS cannot become "Christians".

But we'll accept that your real purpose here is to TRASH your own country, and demean it.

Now, if you really believe this, then it begs the questions:

1) Which country is NOT bad, like we are?

2) Why aren't you living there instead? Since it is so much better.

Kramerguy wrote:Although, as scummy as most of out fore-fathers were,


Scummy as compared to who? By whom, or by what, are you measuring their character by?

Kramerguy wrote:their #1 priorities were freedom of religion (which includes freedom FROM religion), freedom of speech, one's ability to pursue happiness as they see fit, and the right to defend themselves from tyranny.

I just don't see any of that taking priority anymore,


Taking priority by whom? The current administration? Politicians in general? The citizens?

Kramerguy wrote:Reality tells a far, far, different story.


Can you elaborate? You are making HUGE sweeping generalizations, and it would be informative to understand WHO EXACTLY you are referring to, and WHAT EXACTLY they are doing that proves a "far, far, different story"

.

#81563 by Rev Mike
Fri Sep 04, 2009 3:00 am
Hayden King wrote:Mike I do believe that you get back what you put out You and I haven't been putting anything good toward each other, thus leaving no room for either of us to receive anything good from each other. I have ( between joust's) thought that I am wrong for continuing this. I offer a truce and a ground zero; I sure can't claim to have it all together myself and considering one of my main motto's " we are only qualified to judge our own self" I have no right to judge, but always an opportunity to build rather than tear down!


As for religion; I grew up in a fire and brimstone religion. By the age of 7 I was already convinced that I was lowly scum; I often acted accordingly.
I heard about God continuously, but I never any God in anything. If you want my trust don't tell me that you are "right with God" or that I need Jesus or God to see the beauty in life. Everything I saw in them was ugly, twisted and dank.

www.myspace.com/blunderingeye
http://c1.ezfolk.com/bands/6039/index.php
www.myspace.com/445175001
Facebook group/Hayden King

"It is what it is"


Hayden, you offer a hand in friendship, I would be a hypocrite to slap it away. I accept your offer of a clean slate. Not only because my personal belief system requires it, but because I believe in second chances, one of the best friends in my life is a second chance friend.

I am sorry to hear that you are turned off to any kind of faith, but there is, in my opinion, no need for you to fret over it. You are you and free to believe what you want or choose not to believe anything at all. I always say that anyone who tells you they are SURE they know the TRUTH is someone to fear. I know what is true for me, and I am willing to share what I know with any who seek the information, but I wont force it down your throat.

Many people on here are immediately bashing me and my faith and title just because its not a christian faith, so we have some things in common after all hayden. I was harsh with you in response to what I felt was an unwarranted attack on me personally. It is now in the past and I need not elaborate further.

I hope that whatever you choose to do with your future in music, you stay true to yourself and have the best of luck. As I said, even when I was being my cruelest, there is a market for all styles of music, some markets are huge, some are small, but i prefer to think of them as cozy.

until our next exchange...

#81564 by Rev Mike
Fri Sep 04, 2009 3:08 am
Craig, lest we forget the very people you are defending adamantly are the ones who did not come here as christians founding a new nation, they were many athiests who insisted on keeping religion out of this country, at least politically speaking, that is why they made the establishment of a national religion an unconstitutional, thereby forbidden, act. Its a connundrum, but the christians do believe that the founding fathers came here as christians to practice their beliefs, but the fact remains, it was the puritans that came here to bring god and jesus, the rest came to escape it...and lets think just how many people were murdered by the "puritans" as witches and adulterers...so christianity has caused its own stains...popes tolerating sex abuse, etc...fact is, most of us who are not christians that claim to (and often do) know christianity have taken the opposite path than you...myself for example, I came through christianity first, to the point of deaconship in the episcopal church, and then preacher and minister in others, alter boy in catholic, etc...I went through christianity to find myself where i am as do many of us...then there is someone like you who first went through cults...you have only arrived where I was years ago...at least in your belief system, I am not saying you are behind me, I am just saying, been there done that ... you are a seeker, you will continue to seek because if you really believe that what you had already found is the whole truth, you would stop seeking.

#81567 by CraigMaxim
Fri Sep 04, 2009 3:27 am
Hayden King wrote:
If you want my trust don't tell me that you are "right with God" or that I need Jesus or God to see the beauty in life. Everything I saw in them was ugly, twisted and dank.


Well, if there was a God who created the beauty you see in life, then by default, you would need that God to see it's beauty, since He created it, and would have created you to recognize it as beautiful.

Yes, this assumes there is a Creator God.

Assuming there is not. Why would you find "beauty" in anything, other than merely experiencing a chemical reaction possibly, such as natural biological influences, that bring prospective mates together?

What chemical reaction is occuring when you find a sunset or sunrise to be beautiful?


And, on the issue of only seeing "ugly" and "twisted" things in God or Jesus, I am wondering how you would come to that conlusion, when it doesn't appear that you have had any relationship with them DIRECTLY. You shared how your views developed, from "HEARING ABOUT" God all the time (meaning you based all your opinion, on someone elses testimony about who God and Jesus are).

Is this how you normally operate? In other words, if someone told you that Stevie Ray Vaughn was a better blues guitarist than Eric Clapton, would you automatically BELIEVE this, or would you take their opinion into consideration until you actually heard both players, so you could make the determination yourself?

In the former Soviet Union, the leaders told their countrymen on a daily basis that America was not a land of opportunity, but was a greedy nation which left it's citizens in widespread poverty.

Because these were LEADERS of the people, did that automatically mean that they were CORRECT in the way they portrayed America? Or in this case, was it possible that they misrepresented our country?

If so, then is it possible that religious LEADERS have gotten things wrong, or misrepresented them, whether by accident or on purpose? An example of which, being that THERE IS NO PLACE OF FIRE AND BRIMSTONE, designed and created for the purpose of punishing unbelievers for all eternity, even though many fundamental churches teach this as truth.

Regarding choosing NOT to have a relationship with God...

What if you had a friend, that could have become a life long friend, the best you have ever had, but one day someone portrayed that person in a very poor light (because of jealousy maybe) and you bought into what someone else had told you about them, and so you chose not to further develop, what could have been the most rewarding relationship you ever experienced, only to find out decades later, that the person was wrong in how they characterized the other person.

Couldn't that have been a great loss in life, and a shame, that it was all based on someone else's opinion, rather than your own personal self-discovery?

What if that same mistake were possible with God Himself?

.

#81570 by neanderpaul
Fri Sep 04, 2009 3:41 am
PocketGroovesGSO wrote:
Hi Ryan. I think this is a very closed minded perception of spirituality. How do you know that you're right?



John 8:32 "and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

#81571 by neanderpaul
Fri Sep 04, 2009 3:49 am
John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

#81572 by CraigMaxim
Fri Sep 04, 2009 4:02 am
Mike,

You are confused on a few points.

I was stating the traditional view of this nation as being a Christian nation. I also stated that nations CANNOT be Christian, because only an INDIVIDUAL can become a CHRISTIAN.

This nation exalts FREEDOM, which means there will ALWAYS be a mix of religious people, and non-religious people.

And you are mistaken about the founding fathers, when you include the terms "God" and "Jesus" together.

It is likely that NONE of the founding fathers were atheists.

SOME of the founding fathers were Christians.

MOST of the founding fathers were DEISTS.

They believed in a Creator God, but not necessarily the divinity of Jesus.

The acceptance of a Creator God was almost universal, which is why, though you will find no mention of Jesus in our founding documents, you will find "God" or "Creator" listed in them.

The founding fathers had differing views of religion, but ALL accepted that there was a Creator God.

If you want to suggest that modern Christians are rewriting history, when they say that the founding fathers were all Christian. This would be accurate, since the MAJORITY were DEISTS and not necessarily Christian.

To say that the nation was founded upon Christian principles would also be a mistake, since the primary values of our founding documents have their roots in the principles of "The Enlightenment" more so than Christian theology. In fact, it would not be a stretch to say that many of the founding fathers detested the RELIGION of Christianity and found much fault with it. Not Jesus per se, but the CHURCHES representing his teachings.

However,

It would also not be a stretch to say that the GOOD, America has done in the world, is VERY related to Christianity and Christian teachings, since MOST Americans ARE Christian, and therefore motivated by those principles.

.
Last edited by CraigMaxim on Fri Sep 04, 2009 6:04 am, edited 3 times in total.

#81586 by Hayden King
Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:07 am
All is squashed with me as well Mike and I wish you much success in whatever you do. I also want to apologize for any unwarranted personal attack I may have thrown at you! My long run of bad luck and bad decisions have put me a bit on edge lately. I've always been a bit intense but normally hold a much cooler head. I do try not to let my history on the harder side of life rule me but sometimes I just get maxed out.
I really do think one o those sweet lil girls in New Orleans that I may have played a little too much has put a Santa Ria hex on my ass lol.
BTW bro I'm not much of a hick as my last few addresses were in San Francisco, "Nawlans", Tampa, Cincinnati.. I came here from Frisco via Ky state prison. When you spend your time slingin dope in gangland you naturally wind up a lil too hardnosed. I'm several years from that lifestyle and those habits now and am still a work in progress. It's not my given nature so much as conditioning from my environment.
I've never let that out here on BM so I hope it at least helps give you a bit more perspective.
I say "it took all that to make me and I'll never let it break me"
But I've been here 5 years and as they say here.. I'm "gettin my learnin" on how to be a proper hick lol.

the best to you in all that you do Mike!


To my friend Craig:
If you were born in China you may be Buddhist
India and most likely Hindu
Why then do you think that your geography has made you right and everyone else confused or mislead?
Christianity is a conglomeration of several older religions.

ie; Noah and the flood = the legend of Gilgamesh} Sumerian

Most of the holy bibles stories can be traced to ancient Egypt where monotheism originated.
Also investigate the coloration of the #12 and the son (sun) in the origin's of many many religion's.

I am an agnostic and I consider myself to be a spiritual being that doesn't exclude science from religion.
I believe that if there is a God and you seek him you do not need an organized religion or another person involved to find said God.

The one irrefutable fact about God and religion is... "Nobody" Knows!


www.myspace.com/blunderingeye
http://c1.ezfolk.com/bands/6039/index.php
www.myspace.com/445175001
Facebook group/Hayden King

"It is what it is"

#81590 by CraigMaxim
Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:52 am
Hayden,

You haven't read my other posts about these things. Yes, I know that they are often tediously long, but they sometimes contain a treasure trove of answers and insights, that were born of many decades of study, thought, prayers and tears.

In any event...

I DO believe that the world's religions are inspired of God.

I DO believe there is truth to be found in ALL of them.

I agree with you that a religion should not demand that you place your brain on a table at the entrance, to be retrieved later when the service is over. God provided us a heart AND a mind, and the highest forms of religion should be able to satisfy BOTH without excluding one another.

I also agree with you completely, that NO RELIGION and NO OTHER PERSON is required for anyone to find God. A relationship with God, is just that... a RELATIONSHIP. And the most intimate of relationships exist between TWO parties. It is God and myself, in that relationship. Not God, myself and my bowling league. Not God myself and my pastor. Not God, myself and my wife for that matter. My relationship with God is exclusively HIS AND MINE (or HERS and Mine - Nod to Jimmy :-)). And everyone else's is THEIR own relationship to God. It is personal. It is intimate. It is exclusive.

I can't have a relationship with God for my wife. It has to be HER relationship with Him.

That's not to say we cannot be aids or tools for others, to help them find their own relationship to God. But it is like asking someone for directions. The directions may be accurate, or they may not be accurate, but ultimately the DRIVER is making the journey and making the decision where he is going.

.

#81591 by bundydude
Fri Sep 04, 2009 6:20 am
Ahh...Religion...huh? Let me preface this by saying, I grew up in a baptist home with a mother who is a devout believer. Also, I spent eighteen months in a catholic institution. That being said, I understand religion and I get it. So here we go...Personally, I tend to have some serious issues with organized religion. From what I've observed, most christians seem to be very judgemental in their beliefs. Basically, if you don't believe in and do what I think you should do, then your going to hell or won't be saved. If you do this or do that, God will be angry with you and you will surely be damned. WHAT? I don't think so...Any higher power that I know or even think I might know, would never pass that type of judgement on anyone. To me, God is not a vengeful diety to be feared. He would be a loving, caring and an unconditional God.

O.k., now...And this is just me, I do not believe in or follow the christian faith. Do I respect it? Yes...But, I also repsect buddist, hindus, jews, pagans, atheist, agnostis, etc...Whatever faith one believes in, if they are happy with it and find contentment within it...So ba it, more power to them.

While I don't follow the christian doctrine, I do believe in faith, and that is enough for me. I could'nt care less if someone puts their faith in God, Budda, a tree, aliens, the great spirit, whatever, and it works for them, then thats it, have at it.

I happen to be a neo-paganist and combine a mix of several different belief systems, taking whatever piece/part that I happen to like, to blend with and create my own personal faith. I won't go into great detail about it, as I just don't see the point, and frankly, it's nobody's business.

I'll close with this, how can one faith/religion/belief be the one and only true way. Whats right for one, may not be right for another, and why should it be. Regardless of what one believes in, it all comes down to this; there are many, many different belief systems and no matter what face you put on it, the path always leads to the same place, and if that place is good for you/them/me...thats awesome! Nuff said....

#81626 by Rev Mike
Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:07 pm
bundydude wrote:
I'll close with this, how can one faith/religion/belief be the one and only true way. Whats right for one, may not be right for another, and why should it be. Regardless of what one believes in, it all comes down to this; there are many, many different belief systems and no matter what face you put on it, the path always leads to the same place, and if that place is good for you/them/me...thats awesome! Nuff said....


Very Well Said

To Hayden; I understand you more than you know. When you and I first worked together, I was very pleased by your attention to detail and was impressed by your ferver. The night before my concert, things fell apart when I was screwed by a partner (I go to court on Sept 10 coincidentally, only took a year)but when you and I clashed, alot of my anger and hostility stemmed from that. I didn't publicise that, but I did spend the entire day of the concert running around fixing problems that kept springing up from having to make last minute changes. (he had not put up his 16,000 as he said he did and checks started to bounce, so friday when the stages were supposed to arrive with the sound and lighting system, I instead got a phone call saying they were not coming) I relied on my stage manager to keep the show on stage A going and the sound guy for "stage" B was keeping it going there. I was constantly being called to different little problems throughout the day, so I couldn't keep track, hell, I didn't even hear the show, I had to rely on witnesses to tell me how my own artists did.
When I was called to the stage to find you, I was told that you were there a minute ago, and took off, I went looking, but was sidetracked with 2 or 3 other "emergencies". By the time I got back to the stage it had been a while. I was told you guys had done a 40 minute sound check, Jason was screaming about it being his time to go on, and you were only on your 3rd song, but I was told you had been on the stage already an hour. I told him to pull you so the next act could go on, I had to make the decision based on what information was available to me. I also then had to request that confederate railroad and johnny cash, both under not only contracts, but specific riders, if they would please push their times back, but they said no. I then had to cut an act, jason wickline, and that turned ugly. Turned out later that I could've let them play too, cause there was an incident later with a security guard and a drunk guy. That took finesse and 1000 dollars cash to make disappear.

Needless to say, by the time I logged in to BM and saw your post, I was at the last of my patience, and you became the vent. As far as the show went, the public (those that showed, since my partner pulling his money also cancelled the media blitz we planned for the last minute, and he also handed out 500 free passes instead of selling the tickets he had possession of)but the public thought everything was fine, low budget, but fine. I even felt, that regardless of the fact that we had to improvise on stage, I did manage to get the sound system, but not all the instruments I would have had with the other company, thats where we had issues about the drums.

when I saw your post, i freaked, I know I acted immature, but I was piiiiiiiisssseed at the time, not at you, at my former partner. You, as I said, just sparked the explosion. I'm sure if the stuff with my partner had never happened, and we had the turner sound and stage we were supposed to, none of it would have happened the way it did. With turner went alot of important stuff, so all in all, I had been pretty happy that I managed to pull it all off...and you shattered that with that post, that is why I reacted as I did.

I think if you had known all that before, you may have been more understanding. I always appreciated that you and every band that volunteered came out and did your thing for Operation Homefront.

and, Craig...I agree, you are correct on them being DEISTs, but a majority of them were not even that. Thomas Jefferson was an Athiest and was forced into certain wording in the declaration...the original draft said nothing about endowed by our creator...and he fought long and hard to ensure that separation of church and state was secure in the constitution. But no matter, we are what we are, a melting pot of so many cultures its impossible to keep track, the country's population is majority christian, and you are correct, alot of charity this country has shown has been because of that influence...but you really are splitting hairs about the wording. "A country cant be christian" you well know that they mean a nationalized religion when people say the country is christian. You yourself said this country has been charitable because of christianity, by your definition a country cant be charitable only its people can...thats really splitting hairs, and that is the sort of thing alot of these people that are insulting you are getting hung up on...focus more on the meaning behind the wordiness, I know that where you are in your christian life, you are able to feel emotion behind words as if you are feeling it directly from the author, I call that a residual energy signature, because the stronger the emotion when we create something, the more of our physical energy is left in that creation, whether it be a table or a letter or post in a forum, the emotion physically remains in its energy form...a difficult concept for some to understand, but I believe you know what I mean. People feel you are just being condescending when you trivialize the little stuff like that.

Peace brothers

#81640 by gbheil
Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:42 pm
I still have to laugh when I hear or read people whom down Christians or Christianity as being hippocrites. And then claim they understand Christianity.

Well f**k hell yes we are! We are just like everyone else.

It's like, ok the Holy Spirit moves in and POOF, I am the perfect human.
LOL

NOT!!!

Aw sh*t, I got something on my halo. :lol:

#81645 by neanderpaul
Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:58 pm
I heard an interesting reasoning about hypocrites and attending services. It was said that a guy didn't want to be around "all the hypocrites at church". Then someone let him know if they are hypocrites they won't be in heaven. So if they prevent you from going to church and you don't learn, fellowship, worship, and grow and obtain heaven guess who will be with you forever in the ... ehem... other place?

#81647 by Rev Mike
Fri Sep 04, 2009 2:20 pm
neanderpaul wrote:I heard an interesting reasoning about hypocrites and attending services. It was said that a guy didn't want to be around "all the hypocrites at church". Then someone let him know if they are hypocrites they won't be in heaven. So if they prevent you from going to church and you don't learn, fellowship, worship, and grow and obtain heaven guess who will be with you forever in the ... ehem... other place?


that is a valid point and why you need to have your own personal relationship and not follow blindly into hypocracy

#81666 by CraigMaxim
Fri Sep 04, 2009 2:49 pm
Mike,

I am not splitting hairs, I am making an important distinction. Alot of well meaning Christians would turn this country into a THEOCRACY. They use the fact that many of the settlers were Christian, but they forget the fact, that those same Christians were FLEEING state religion in England. They are also well meaning in their desire to have state sponsored ELEMENTS of Christianity in place, such as posting the 10 commandments in government buildings, etc... But the only chance ANYONE has of PROTECTING their right to freely practice their religion, is when the government stays OUT of religion, and it is a LEVEL PLAYING FIELD. That should be all ANY religious person should want or need.


Sans,

People get confused, and claim that a Christian is a HYPOCRITE because they sometimes fall short in the practice of what they preach. But that is not what hypocrisy means. They are using the wrong terminology. A hypocrite would be claiming THEY DO practice what they preach, while in truth they DID NOT. Most Christians, myself included, are very clear in their understanding "I am a sinner, saved by grace" - This is not proclaiming that one is better than anyone else. It is proclaiming "God is merciful, because my sin certainly did not earn me a place in heaven, only by His grace have I been afforded a seat at the table." Christians understand that they are sinful and IN NEED of a savior, to help them become more like Christ, to help them love, to help them be better.

What's funny, is that the Christian STARTS with the phrase "I am a sinner" and the critic of Christians starts with the phrase "I don't have to be a Christian to be a good person" (indicating by default, that THEY ARE a good person). So the Christian in fact starts from a place of humility, whereas the critic of Christianity starts from a place of loftiness and arrogance, and yet it is the Christian who is supposed to be the hypocrite? It is the Christian who is self-righteous? It is NOT self-righteousness to say "I am a sinner, in need of grace and mercy and HELP." The self-righteous statement would be: "I am NOT in need of help!"

.
Last edited by CraigMaxim on Fri Sep 04, 2009 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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