General Music Chat

AV Aren't you in the armed forces?

Ya damn right I am, thats why this is so personal for me.
I hate to see our country sold our to the highest bidder.

Whenever I hear talk of armed revolution, or even state secession, I can't help but remember the price we already paid in blood, to SAVE this UNION, and the price Abraham Lincoln paid personally.

What a great man. Still considered one of our greatest, if not our greatest, President.

Don't dishonor his memory and sacrifice.

To this day, we lost more lives in the Civil War than any other war we have ever fought.

It's funny how people will get angry enough to take up arms, and yet will not take up a position in a political party, or a community organization.

I believe that had Lincoln lived he would have fought just as hard to control rampant federalism as he did to preserve the union.
An in depth studyof history would suggest that Lincoln would have be the Antibellum South / agrarian economy's best friend.
The horendous death toll of the ACW was mostly due to the application of Napolionic tactic in the presence of modern weapons (the rifled barrel on both small arms and artillery as well as the advent of repeating arms and self contained cartrages)
I doubt if Mr Lincoln would even recognise the Federal Government as it exists today, where our elected officials dont even bother to read legeslation prior to accepting bribes to vote for it.
I do Mr Lincoln, Washington, etc honor to not accept any further erosion of the constitution they swore their lives to defend.

The high death count of the Civil War was first and foremost, due to the fact, that no matter which side won the battle each day, Americans died. It was Americans killing Americans.

Lincoln did not want war. He had campaigned on a platform of stopping the expansion of slavery. When he won the election, seven southern states seceeded, even before he had been sworn in. When the confederacy attacked Fort Sumpter there was no going about things peacefully.

Lincoln would NEVER support an armed rebellion by fellow Americans, who were too lazy to make changes through the legal and political process.

The best way to achieve annihilation is to divide and conquer. When WE are the ones divided, all we do is conquer OURSELVES.

How many of you have ever written your Congressmen and Senators? How many have called their offices? Asked for meetings? How many here have formed community organizations and groups to promote solutions? How many have joined or organized protests? How many have become active in the political process by volunteering for candidates who support your goals? How many have organized neighbors and educated them on how to change things through legislative and political means?

When you really love something, you don't seek it's destruction, you seek it's protection, and work to correct it and make it better.

Violence should ALWAYS be the last resort.

And to choose violence over some hard work is shameful.

Violence rarely achieves the desired outcome.

The Civil Rights movement was successful because it SHUNNED violence. Had Martin Luther King used his persuasion to convince people to follow the Black Panther's path, it may have been DECADES longer, before they achieved legislative victories.

Laws would have been made making it illegal for blacks to own guns. They may have been put in internment camps like Japanese Americans were.

Things changed, because in the face of violence, the protestors refused to strike back. When Americans saw the INJUSTICE being perpetrated against them, being accosted by powerful firehoses, having dogs attack them, being beaten by police with batons, despite having marched peacefully, and when this played out on national television, and Americans watched them curl up into the fetal position to protect themselves, it CHANGED HEARTS.

The ones perpetrating the violence... LOST.

In the Civil War, the ones perpetrating the violence... LOST.

In the American Revolution, the ones perpetrating the violence... LOST.


In each of these episodes, the side standing for justice and what was right, undertook their causes through the law, through peaceful protest and civil disobedience. NOT THROUGH ARMS.

Wow Craig, were the Colonist to lazy to be raped and robbed by the King?
Read the constitution brother.

Sans,

I tried to point out, that EVERY EFFORT was made to correct their situation. Most colonists, and even many of the founding fathers, wanted to remain English. Benjamin Franklin and many others, went to England and sought redress of the issues confronting them. The primary problem being, that they had NO representation in England. So that there was no real vote, by the colonists to be able to change things, object to bad policies or get comfort from excessive taxes and policies that prohibited the financial growth that busniessmen knew was possible.

Franklin alone, spent YEARS working WITHIN the system to correct these injustices. Franklin created community organizations, not unlike Obama, to pressure changes in policies. In Pennsylvania, one family, the Penn family, controlled the entire area and ran it as "proprietors" of the property there. Franklin established the "Anti-Proprietary Party" in answer to this problem. Franklin also used his printing skills and his success of "Poor Richard's Almanack" to print other publications, write articles and position papers, established a newspaper, and used these devices to enlighten the public. In fact, Benjamin Franklin for the most part, used some variation of all the methods I described.

Violence came to the colonies, because they REFUSED (civil disobedience) to honor many of the new policies instituted by the King of England, because as they saw it, the "laws" were not legal in the first place, because they had no representation, though they were being taxed. As Englishmen, they were supposed to have representation.

This inspired the King to send COMBAT TROOPS in response. THIS was a change in policy. A clear signal that he was going to enforce his will by force, rather than hear them out. This caused many colonies to begin to form Militias to defend themselves. Things continued escalating, when neither side backed down. It is important to understand however, that the colonists TRIED, and TRIED, through many means, to get their issues resolved WITHOUT dissolving their English citizenship.

My very simple point, is...

If someone has NOT spent adequate time on peaceful, LEGAL efforts to resolve their issues, they insult human decency and civility to even suggest, taking up arms.

THAT is what is lazy.

If someone has not exhausted all civil and peaceful means available to them first... Why not? Because, they are disturbed or lazy.

It is silly in the first place, to even compare colonial society with today's.

Radicals love to quote the founding father's statements like "The tree of Liberty, from time to time, must be nourished by the blood of patriots"

That's awesome. Let's compare life under a dictatorial monarchy, with all the means available today, legal, political and distribution of information. Let's wipe out 200 plus years of progress, so we can justify murder.

A great deal of sacrifice, over several centuries, has been paid, to bring us toward full equality and civility and away from mankind's violent and animalistic insticts, which are remnants of our evolutionary heritage.

I don't want to see all that progress undone, because someone finds it easier to pick up a gun, than a telephone.

Is there any instance in history where a greedy, corrupt government ever gave up it's power or greedy policies without a revolution?
Just wondering.

The more accurate question is:

"Has there ever been an instance where an ALL-POWERFUL DICTATORIAL government has ever given up it's power without some military force being leveled against it?"

The answer is probably "No"

But we don't live under an all-powerful dictatorial government.

We live in America, where...

ALL ELECTED OFFICIALS (ALL OF THEM) CAN BE VOTED OUT OF OFFICE!!!!!

who said anything about an armed rebellion?
Armed rebellion is a last resort, and I dont see another one of those for probably 100 years.
Im a member of the constitution party. I do take the steps politically to over turn this.
I voted Ron Paul to try and save this broken nation along with the rest of the highest indepentant turn out in US history.
Im not the only one sick of this.
We are becoming that which our founding fathers were sick of.
Also, in oregon I am a member of the Constitution party of oregon.
Becuase I believe that the piece of paper holds nearly absolute truths, and just like what the second amendment says: SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!!!

I took an oath to the constitution upon entering the Airforce. It says I will defend the constitution agianst ALL enemies both foreign and domestic.

And craig, what about those officials we dont elect... like hilary's sweet new job, or probably 90% of those washington fat-cats?
If everything was all rainbows and flowers craig, then we would have war, or prison, rape, drugs, vandilism, arson, pornograpy, sex slaves, third world countrys. But we do, and theres a very obvious reason for tht.

But we don't live under an all-powerful dictatorial government.
We live in America, where...
ALL ELECTED OFFICIALS (ALL OF THEM) CAN BE VOTED OUT OF OFFICE!!!!!

Yeah, if you can beat the system which is THEIR system.
Here's how George W. was re-elected in '04.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caging_(voter_suppression)

Add to that things like the (corporate owned) media excluding people like Ron Paul from debates and guides the masses to believe that he wasn't even a viable candidate. If the media can dismiss all the honest politicians, who is left to vote for? If you vote elected officials out of office and then fill the office with more corporate puppets, what good have you done?

Anyone know who Amy Goodman is? Did you see anything about her getting arrested for peacefully trying to cover the RNC?

Like Skynyrd said, "There's things goin' on that you don't know."

I like Ron Paul. He's a straight shooter as far as I can tell.

But corporate America is not going to play ball with those who won't play. A ground swell of support is necessary for a candidate like that to win. He was getting a good deal of that, but too little too late.

Not many people knew who Ron Paul was or what he stood for, until they saw him in some of the debates. And people are going to go more with who they know, then an unknown. Yes, Obama was an unknown, but he had given a big speech at the Democratic Convention several years before, and was a best selling author, and media darling. When very big names began to back him publicly, it took heat away from Hillary, who would have been the choice hands down, because of name recognition, and having proven herself as a smart and capable woman, who was also tough as nails.

Now that people know who Ron Paul is, he would have a better shot at the next election, although he is not doing much to position himself for that. Mike Huckabee would have a better chance, because he is a host of a popular program on Fox, and has guests from both sides of the aisle, and treats them all with respect. I imagine he is winning over alot of the left for how civil he shows himself to be. But that is unlikely to overcome his stance on abortion and other strong left issues.

Additionally, Americans are image driven. They want a tough looking president. Exceptions have been Bush Sr, although he is tall and was a fighter pilot in war, and had lied about his age to join. That comes across as tough. But mainly, he was Reagan's vice president, and people were hoping for a continuation of Reaganesque prosperity under Bush Sr. - If there were no such thing as term limits, Reagan would have been elected again. Bush was the closest thing they could get to Reagan.

Before that you have to go back to Carter. But Carter's big push was that he followed Nixon. America didn't trust the presidency any longer, and Carter, as a born again Christian and sunday school teacher, was what they needed at the time. We can't trust the presidency, but this guy promises us that he "will never lie to us" and if you couldn't trust a born again sunday school teacher, they didn't know who they would be able to trust again after that. So they elected Carter in response to the shame Nixon brought to the Presidency.

Maybe after electing the first black to the presidency, Americans are willing to go for a mild mannered type again, but I doubt it. Rogue nations are already testing Obama, and he is doing nothing in response. They will take this as a green light and will increase their efforts in response. All hell will break loose, and talking won't stop it, and Americans will be ready for another "cowboy" type, to keep them safe.

I don't think Obama will be re-elected.

I just have a feeling something is going to happen, no matter where the economy stands at the time, and he will be voted out in favor of someone else.

It's probably a Carter style thing. The economy will be even worse than it is now, and he will be weak on defense related issues. The economy alone, is always enough for citizens to turn their backs on someone in office. Even if he was a national hero. Churchil helped win a world war, and he was thrown out of office not long after, because England's economy was so bad.

You can get away with almost anything as leader of a free market society, but not a poor economy. Carter was put out because of it. Bush Sr. was put out because of it. It doesn't matter the party. It doesn't matter how moral or decent of a human being you are. Nothing matters more, when it comes down to it, to Americans, than their pocket books. The only thing that would trump this, would be a clear and present danger, an urgent threat to national security.

That's coming.

To be honest AV. There might be people reading what you are saying and wondering why you are in the armed forces?

I know times are tough but nothing is perfect no matter what folk say over a beer its about who you are and where you are and of course your close family. I'd worry more about my family than contend thoughts on something and let's face it, that will require a meteor event for it to push it forward.

Perhaps it will? Perhaps some ground will be gained, who knows? But why waste your young life on such things?

Hows your music going?

Ratsass,

Unethical and even illegal practices are used by BOTH parties. Republicans use tactics like voter caging, but Democrats are famous for having dead people vote, for double voting, and for having illegals vote.

If anything, they probably balance one another out with their unethical behaviors.

But in a Republic, citizens do not elect the President anyway.

The Electoral College does.

Only in a few states are these "electors" required to vote in accordance with the popular vote.

Want to make a big change in government?

Start there.

It will require a constituional ammendment to achieve this. But Americans would likely support it. They just don't have anyone organizing them into accomplishing it.

Americans are often lazy where political and civil service are concerned. They just want to work, and buy things on credit, and have plenty of free time or entertainment. They just want their lives to be safe and enjoyable on some level. They want their representatives to decide things for them, and they don't want to be bothered with much outside of their circle of family anf friends. This is not so wrong, on a personal level. But we can see what happens in government when no one wants to be "bothered" by having to do extra work. When no one is gurading the hen house, the foxes take over.

We are at fault.

We let it happen.

We continue to let it happen.

Everyone acts like this is some sort of great conspiracy and that solving it is some impossible mystery.

Criminals learn how to use the system to their advantage quite rapidly, especially while incarcerated. They can't go to the beach, or to the movies, or put that jet ski on a credit card and hit the lake. They have lots of time, and limited entertainment options. They learn about the law, and how to use it.

A criminal behind bars can make the system work for them.

Nothing is stopping anyone outside those bars from doing the same.

Except of course...

Their own willingness to sacrifice entertainment and leisure, for learning the system and spending some hours of their time each week, working to use it to their advantage.

If employees of a bad boss, did nothing but complain to ONE ANOTHER about how bad their boss is. Do you really think anything will change? The boss will still be the boss. The employees will still be miserable. The only advantage, and it's not much of one, is the occassional chance to vent to the other miserable employees. When Americans send out circular emails to one another about how bad things are, it accomplishes no more than the employees who complain to one another. They are not complaining in the right ways and to the right places. They are not taking TANGIBLE steps to do anything about the problem.

So the bosses stay our bosses, and the employees remain miserable, and just continue complaining about how miserable they are.

Rocketapoleticians never really appealed to me.
You know what? The most simple things are the scariest. So what is this American Jihad after?

I had a horrid dream last night in which a black robed man opened a partition in my wall. I did not sit and watch! I woke in a frenzy and completely scared. I told him NOOOOOOOOOO !

Rocketapoleticians << Is my second addition to the vocabulary on this forum.

Notice how its going quiet out there? SHROOMS is God not that I have any idea what they look like? Heck there is a yellow spotted spider on my old Home depot gazebo with NO mesh! :Shock:

We've got change. just how much would you like?

But in a Republic, citizens do not elect the President anyway.

The Electoral College does.

Only in a few states are these "electors" required to vote in accordance with the popular vote.

Want to make a big change in government?

Start there.

Wouldn't that be awesome?