General Music Chat

ALL THIS TALK ABOUT NATIONAL HEALTHCARE IS MAKING ME VERY ILL. THERE HAS BEEN ABSOLUTELY NO MENTION OF MAJOR TORT REFORM IN THE NATIONAL HEALTHCARE PROPOSALS. IT DOESN'T TAKE AN IDIOT TO FIGURE OUT WE CANNOT REDUCE HEALTHCARE COSTS WHEN OVER HALF THE INCOME OF DOCTORS AND HOSPITALS GOES TOWARD MEDICAL LIABILITY INSURANCE. WE HAVE TO GET THE LEGAL PROFESSIONALS OUT OF THE PICTURE AND APPARENTLY OBAMA IS PAYING BACK ALL THE ATTORNEYS WHO HELPED GET HIM ELECTED BY NOT WANTING TORT REFORM. GET THIS INTO YOUR HEADS ONCE AND FOR ALL. THE LAWYERS HAVE ALL OF US BY THE BALLS, THEY NEED TO LET GO PERMANENTLY. PERIOD.

You're right on the money Bob. I've said this in other posts - the threat of lawsuits has really hurt the medical industry. A couple years ago this was one of the major talking points in the Washington state elections; they were having problems even getting doctors to come to the state to take jobs because the litigation was getting out of control.

Like I said - complex issue. Lots of aspects to it.

But blaming Obama... man... you gotta get your head out of the sand. If you believe he's the only one with lawyers for friends, you're living in Narnia.

here's my question:
Why do you expect the gov to baby you?
The reason I dont support gov health care is becuase they control it, meaning also, that you may not get any becuase of a condition you may have. gov healthcare is the next step to socialism. Remember hitler? he was elected too, gave gov healthcare too. How can you trust a goverment body anyways? look at the last century ALONE and you'll have no reason to. The Mao ages, Hitler, Stalin, Africa. Pssh what help governments have been huh?

Ugh... Some of you folks are so paranoid you can't even think straight.

I have yet to hear anyone say (anyone that isn't a right-wing radio host trying to get ratings) that the health care plan being proposed is designed to take away your rights to whatever health care you want. If you're an uber-rich person and can afford whatever health care you want right now - you'll be able to keep doing that. The health care reform is not about you...


It's about providing uninsured with health care. It's about trying to cover the people who CANNOT AFFORD health care. Especially kids - too many young children are going uninsured.

Think for a second - suppose you're a parent and you work a job that doesn't give you health care benefits (this is commonplace in America folks). You can't insure yourself or your kids. Now your 3-year-old comes down with Leukemia...



I am fortunate - I work at a job where I have a really good health care plan. I actually turned down a job last year that paid more, because they had a worse health care plan. The costs of their health care plan would have actually cost me so much money that the raise they were offering me wouldn't have ended up being a raise at all - I would have broke even compared to what I am making now. So I stayed where I am.

I heard Rush Limbaugh ranting on Fox News about how this isn't about Health Care because we have the best doctors and hospitals in the world. That it's about Health Insurance, and he was acting like that was a bad thing.

Of course it's about health insurance Rush! What good is it to have the best doctors in the world and the best hospitals if only the exceedingly rich can afford them? What's the point?

Republicans like to act like there's nothing broken in the health care industry. But tell me - honestly - that you think we can't do better for the people of the US? Do you really believe this is as good as it gets? Is this the BEST we can do?

If so, we're pathetic.

I don't know what the answers are - but I don't believe for one second that this is as good as it gets. We can do better. And if the politicians we elect can't figure out how to make things better, then we should find some who can.

I dont have a problem being or thinking of "community".
I have a problem being forced into anything outside of my personal choice.
All is well and good in thinking / acting as community, untill, like in China the community decides who many childern you have and "healthcare" becomes forced abortion.
Community is me giving to my Church, or to my extended family members, or to my friends in need, by my choosing.
Community is not big govenment deciding what I should eat, what I drive where I work, what kind of music I play, who insures my family, etc. etc.
And I dont care for being lumped into some statistic, because I choose to live differently from my neighbors.
Limiting my personal freedom of choice as is supposidly guarenteed my our Bill of Rights.
That's what is offensive to me.
I pay my way, you pay your way. If you need help I am willing to help, but not with uncle sams gun to my head.
That is pure unadulterated bullshit.

here's my question:
Why do you expect the gov to baby you?
The reason I dont support gov health care is becuase they control it, meaning also, that you may not get any becuase of a condition you may have. gov healthcare is the next step to socialism. Remember hitler? he was elected too, gave gov healthcare too. How can you trust a goverment body anyways? look at the last century ALONE and you'll have no reason to. The Mao ages, Hitler, Stalin, Africa. Pssh what help governments have been huh?

Ugh... Some of you folks are so paranoid you can't even think straight.

I have yet to hear anyone say (anyone that isn't a right-wing radio host trying to get ratings) that the health care plan being proposed is designed to take away your rights to whatever health care you want. If you're an uber-rich person and can afford whatever health care you want right now - you'll be able to keep doing that. The health care reform is not about you...


It's about providing uninsured with health care. It's about trying to cover the people who CANNOT AFFORD health care. Especially kids - too many young children are going uninsured.

Think for a second - suppose you're a parent and you work a job that doesn't give you health care benefits (this is commonplace in America folks). You can't insure yourself or your kids. Now your 3-year-old comes down with Leukemia...



I am fortunate - I work at a job where I have a really good health care plan. I actually turned down a job last year that paid more, because they had a worse health care plan. The costs of their health care plan would have actually cost me so much money that the raise they were offering me wouldn't have ended up being a raise at all - I would have broke even compared to what I am making now. So I stayed where I am.

I heard Rush Limbaugh ranting on Fox News about how this isn't about Health Care because we have the best doctors and hospitals in the world. That it's about Health Insurance, and he was acting like that was a bad thing.

Of course it's about health insurance Rush! What good is it to have the best doctors in the world and the best hospitals if only the exceedingly rich can afford them? What's the point?

Republicans like to act like there's nothing broken in the health care industry. But tell me - honestly - that you think we can't do better for the people of the US? Do you really believe this is as good as it gets? Is this the BEST we can do?

If so, we're pathetic.

I don't know what the answers are - but I don't believe for one second that this is as good as it gets. We can do better. And if the politicians we elect can't figure out how to make things better, then we should find some who can.

Im not saying your pathetic, but there are choices, like free clinics which are usually more creditable then non-free clinics.
Which the state or community does pay for.

Free clinics cannot handle the truly serious stuff like leukemia, AV.

Wow! So many things to think about!

They HAVE limited the awards for medical screw-ups, in many states, yet still the insurance costs go up. Why? Cuz those ins co's demand more & more profits for their investors, at the cost of the patients' care. Those co's aren't doing the job we pay them for, if they continually drop claims, or refuse to handle pre-existing conditions, or refuse to recognize & allow treatment for the myriad problems associated with something like lyme disease.

As long as ins co's are making money at the expense of the patients, it is not in their best interest to pay for medical treatments. The fewer claims they accept, the less they pay for, the more they make for their investors. It's simple business. Unfortunately, as long as it's a biz, we will not get the treatment that we need.

It is time to take the biz out of the care. Yeah, a good Dr should make good bucks, but his lawyers should not. Nor should the insurance co continue to have such growing profits while we are sick or hurt & untreated.

A truly great plan would allow for good & proper payments for good treatments, better payments for specialty treatments that so few can perform, allow for pre-existing condition treatments, & allow the patient a choice of Dr. NO insurance company can or will do that, & continue to raise their profits each year. So it's up to the gov't to step in & do the right thing.

As long as ins co's are making money at the expense of the patients, it is not in their best interest to pay for medical treatments.

See, that's the thing - and I'm glad Philby brought it up. In this particular case, the free market is doing more harm than good.

In general I believe in the free market. I believe in capitalism. I believe that if you've got a product or service that you want to offer and you think you can do it better than the competition, then you deserve the chance to act on that notion and you deserve the rewards you reap. I like competition - it makes everyone better and it gets rid of the chaff.

But when it comes to health care the system doesn't work. It doesn't work because in a free market system profit wins. This is fine if you're making widgets - if you can make them for cheaper and sell them for more and the quality is better then you deserve everything you have coming to you in terms of profit.

But health care shouldn't be about profits. It should be about healing sick people and making them well.

On the bloody nail. No one can argue with this point frankly.

But health care shouldn't be about profits. It should be about healing sick people and making them well.

On the bloody nail. No one can argue with this point frankly.

But health care shouldn't be about profits. It should be about healing sick people and making them well.

AMEN CHIPPY

Sans,

I don't love big government, its the main reason I've always voted Republican. And I'm not saying that government RUN rather than SUPERVISED health care is the solution. But reforms ARE necessary, and COMPLETE reforms.

IT IS a system based on profit and in regards to health care, that is NOT reaping the best benefits for Americans. Wealthy or not. The government DOES NOT screw up everything it touches. We have the best military in the worold, from training to equipment. ALL government run and maintained. We have health inspectors and safety standards for elevators and everything else, and it ALL contributes to making our citizens SAFE and SECURE compared to MOST of the world's countries. When my ex-wife from Peru, first saw the saftey-bar, on school busses that swings out in front of the bus so children who cannot be seen in front of the bus would have to walk around it, preventing them from being unseen, and then run over, she shook her head and commented: "America is so careful about everything, to keep people safe. You'd never see that in my country." I asked her what bus drivers did in her country to make sure the kid didn't get run over, and she said "Nothing! They don't care if they run over them. For a joke, they will slow down till the kid catches up to the bus, then take off like a race car when he gets to the door, just to have a laugh that day." - Well, I laughed when she said that, but that's cause we'll laugh at anything here, but to get serious about it... things are this way, because America VALUES life, INDIVIDUAL life. Every PERSON has the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happinness. MOST other countries of the world, do not care about the individual to the degree that we do.

I don't like government interference any more than you do Sans, but this issue is different to me. However, I don't think it should be rammed down our throats as it is, without any public debate on it. It should be a mandated 6 months (or more) of bi-partisan compromising and hearings to figure this out, with everyone, including insurance companies and private industry being a part of the discussion. Maybe even town hall meetings across the country to have OUR input. But if it must be passed now, so be it. We can tweak it later. They have drug their asses too long on this issue.

Also Sans,

You know I respect you, and care about you, so this is from love: Just remember, that when you are criticising the government as useless and worthless (speaking generally) remember two things:

1) The "government" is PEOPLE. We are criticising other Americans. YES, they can.. hell, they DO get caught up in a beauracracy mentality when they have worked in government so long, but the solution is reforming the beauracracy, not condemning the AMERICANS serving the nation.

2) As badly as we conservatives like trashing how the government runs things, it's good to remember that WE ALL TRUST government all the time, without even thinking about it. We trust our food supply in the stores refridgerators anb freezers because we have accepted that health inspectors catch problems with a high accuracy. We trust the PACKAGING'S LABEL that this product has "this many calories" and has "no salt" or "no peanuts" if it says so, because of government regulation. We trust our military to defend us. We trust that our doctors have been certified and are licensed. ALL GOVERNMENT overseen. Yes, things slip through the cracks, but this is the exception, rather than the rule.

I agree with Phil, that our HEALTH should not be for-profit. The argument against this, would be that the financial incentives encourage parmaceutical companies to invest BILLIONS into research for better drugs. But that financial incentive, works AGAINST safer better healthcare just as easily. For example, the active ingredient found NATURALLY in certain foods or herbs, will be isolated by a pharmaceutical company, merely so they can create a SYNTHETIC version of it, and then MAKE MONEY on selling the un-natural alternative. The for=profit nature of this, also means that WE subsidize the WORLD'S medicine at OUR expense. Drugs sold here for $60.00 a single pill, will be sold for $1 or $2 dollars in poor coountries. They sell it here for $60.00 because they CAN.

So I would argue that financial incentive, IN THIS CASE, does more harm than good.

It is greed and unreasonable levels of profit for many people whom provide no care that has our healthcare system screwed up.
Yet as I say this I have to wonder, if I asked my fellows here on Bandmix how much is my time and my care worth per hour as a regstered nurse what would you say?
How many dollars an hour would you pay to have me care for you?
How many dollars an hour would uncle sam pay me to care for you?
If healthcare should be not for profit, should I get paid at all?

I don't like paying a car mechanic $45 an hour, but I can't do the work and I know if I put it off, it'll get worse and cost more later.
Healthcare is kinda like that doncha think?

But, if I found two equally knowledgeable mechanics and one really seemed to care about my car problems and the other just did it because it was his job, I would go to the caring one.

And THAT, George, is what makes you worth whatever you get paid, and probably more.

The Military is not set up to be for-profit, they get paid well.

Postal service is not set up to be for-profit they get paid well.

Congress is not set up to be for-profit they get paid well.


Also, having health care be universal does not mean there would not be for-profit hospitals and clinics. The wealthy will pay for the best. It may be that their care becomes more expensive. With your experience, it may be that YOU end up being employed somewhere that actually pays you more.

Some of the best engineers work for NASA and they get paid VERY well. Just because the government is involved, doesn't mean service detiorates and wages go down and they take anybody and their brother on board.

After time, many things revolutionize and society changes as a result. The Industrial Revolution changed things forever, and Southerners DID NOT embrace these changes at first. They liked life the way it was. Slave labor and growing crops and having people process the stuff by hand. Look at farming today. With technology and machines, more crops are being grown, hundreds of percent more, in the exact same land areas, than were possible before.

Things evolve. The wise and the survivors and those who will thrive, evolve with them. And they BENEFIT, not get lost in the shuffle. The ones relegated to the heap bins of history, are those who REFUSE to evolve, when nature and destiny are forcing it.

Healthcare is not going to suddenly be unprofitable for workers in that arena. Hospitals are not going to suddenly be grungy and dirty and resemble third-world impoverished nations.

When was the last time you saw a political candidate run on "ending Medicare" and be successful and get into office? The ones getting into office are pledging that they will NOT end it, or take away benefits. Cause old people VOTE, and they vote religiously, and the candidates know that.

If people's health care DID begin to deteriorate or suffer, people would be up in arms, and they would vote for the candidate who pledged to turn it around.

So, in an indirect way, THERE WOULD still be competition where health care is concerned, but rather than insurance companies competing, the politicians would be competing, to protect or even improve the system.

Another thing I was thinking about too, is that everyone likes to compare how universal health care is, in places like Canada or France, as if that was how it would be here as well. Well, I don't know that this is a fair comparison.

America is like no other country on Earth. We have a larger economy BY FAR than any other nation on Earth. So it may be, that this would be the ONE COUNTRY in the world, that could get this right, and do it far better than all the others, simply because we are not as limited in our resources as many of them are. Universal health care here, could be night and day different, than in a country like Canada or France.

In fact, I'm sure it would be, simply because their pie is smaller to cut up and divvy among their various programs, than ours is.

sans - non-profit doesn't mean that ppl don't get paid. One of our more better-off ppl is the CEO of the Red Cross, a non-profit org. Nonprofit means that INVESTORS aren't making dividends. Any proceeds are put back into the co. Yes, there is COST, to pay the workers, buy supplies, but that nasty lil excess doesn't exist, & that's what's killing ppl, economically & sometimes literally, the way things are, now.

As a health care pro, wouldn't you rather be a gov't emplyee, when you consider the perks & bennies that gov't workers get, when you compare them to what you have, now?

Its ironic that at the top of this in the advertising section,header, are two attornies advertising for malpractice cases.
I realize it would take a transitional period to allow every legal citizen to accumulate enough tax free personal wealth to afford any healthcare procedure that might arise. But imagine, having to spend a $100,000 on your choice of a hospital and doctors,and after all is paid you still have $500,00 left in you personal medical account. This is money you were allowed to accumulate tax free for a lifetime of work.
Unfortunately this will never happen,,,, It would put insurance companies out of business and our govt is not in favor of allowing any one to accumulate this sort of wealth and freedom.
This is not about healthcare....this is about FREEDOM.
I've moved any future political post's out of here , Sorry to jangle any ones nerves. This was just to bring up an idea from thirty years ago.Im a big advocate of personal freedom,and thats why all the different music shared up here is so important.Musical freedom,much respect for that.

The rate of pay for the CEO of the RED CROSS is why I wont give them my money. It's obscene for one who provides no one on one service to get filthy rich off of donations intended for the less fortunate.
Ditto the Salvation Army.
$10.00 to a friend does more good than 1k to these scoundrels.

The US ARMY is the finest in the world, and they are not for profit.
But the ticks are so thick on that dog you can barely see his feet.

I think you guys missed my point about my personal income.
I have no concern about my future. I have been through so many lay offs and career changes, I know the Lord is watching over me.

My point (to attempt to define it better) is that in my own displeasure with what I consider unjust profit, I have to wonder just how hipacritical I am.
(Pharaoh shared a greater percentage with his slaves than CEO's do with there "employees")
I have been and continue to encourage my wife to open our own business.
In what I consider a "just" business model, all employees would have equal shares in "ALL" profits.
(there would be stepped salery per positions but all the gross profit above that would be shared =)
My employees would profit or fail together.
No one would live in a mansion on the lake, while another cant feed her children in the trailer park.
I guess that makes me a communist.