General Music Chat

I have played guitar for many years, mostly rhythm...I've learned by ear, watching others and what people have shown me. I do not raed music and have a very small understanding of theory. That being said, I looked up some scales on a internet piano site. Here's my querry, for example, the harmonic minor scale was; C/D/Eb/F/G/G#/B/C, the Mixolydian was; C/D/E/F/G/A/A#/C and the Phrygian was; C/C#/Eb/F/G/G#/A#/C, my problem is this, these scales are obviously in the key of C...right. Are scales always shown in the key of C, and the manner that they are used depends upon the key that you need to play them in, adjusting the scale to fit the desired key, or were they shown to me in the key of C, due to the fact that it was a piano site and not a guitar site? Also, when they say, key of C, is that the normal/most common key? Because, if the first string is the E string and the sixth string is the E string, and when both are played open, it is the note of E, then how/why is it considered the key of C...I don't understand, as I said, if the first and sixth strings open notes are E...why isn't it the key of E, instead of the key of C. I tried to explain this the best that I could, if anyone understands this/my madness...please help! Thanks...

C is easiest to show in notation, due to the placement of the root on the staff, & having no sharps or flats in the major pattern.

Just remember that the PATTERNS are the same up & down your neck, & you'll do fine, as long as you can find your root.

Scales can be shown in any key. The book I have by Ted Green does 'em all in D.

Hey Bundydude. I've been playing guitar for years and, just like you, don't read music and have limited theory. Quite a few years ago, I was reading about Modes, and it was a real eye opener. There are just seven modes and they are scales that follow a set pattern. I don't try to remember all the names, just the pattern. Start by hitting the root note, which could be any note (start on the 5th fret on the low E and it will be a mode in A, for example). Then, using Whole notes (W) and half notes (H), go:
W W H W W W H and you have the basic Do, Re, Mi scale. Then next:
W H W W W H W You're just taking the first step of the pattern and moving it to the end of the line. And then:
H W W W H W W
W W H W W W H
W H W W W H W
H W W W H W W
W W W H W W H
Try each one, playing an A chord and then doing the mode. You'll find certain ones that you'll like with certain song ideas. Learn the ones you like so that they come naturally to you and you don't have to think about them. Then when you're playing in, say, the basic rock blues scale, you'll throw in part of one of those modes just to flavor it up a bit.
Now this is just a starter. It'll get you on the road to some theory, but there is SO much more about guitar, and that's what's beautiful about it. You never stop learning.
Hope this helps.

Oh, and the reason I put all this down was because it makes more sense to me on guitar than on piano, as you are playing the same positions up and down the fretboard without worrying about the black and white keys like a piano. That's why they show things in C on the piano, like Philby said. Look at the notes:
C D E F G A B C All white keys in a row. So that's:
C W W H W W W H Do, Re, Mi and all.
Making any sense?

An image can be worth a thousand words. This chart below is very handy

This was one of the most informative threads ever posted here. there are a few and should be stickied and put somewhere for other folks too.

seems as tho you have your answer to why pianists think in c...

so let me try to add to the conversation by pointing out that several methods of learning the 7 modes have been put forward here, and that while you should learn them all... you should probably just start with whatever one makes the most sense to you, and the others might fall into line as you go:

if you learn the degree method the most basic case is in the key of c cause the c major scale (the scale you would ideally compare all others to) has no accidentals (#'s and b's).
cmaj = c d e f g a b c
- all other scales can conceptually be built by altering the 7 degrees of this scale. ie c dorian can be thought of as a c major scale with a flat three (third note) and flat 7 (7th note) ie
C D Eb F G A Bb

another user mentioned the 'interval' pov: w w h w w w h
this method focuses on the distance between the notes ( a whole step - 2 frets or a half step - 1 fret) and you can construct any other mode by simply starting in a dif point in the sequence:
ie c maj = w w h w w w h
ie c maj = C w D w E h F w G w A w B h C
ie c dorian = w h w w w h w
ie c dorian = C w D h Eb w F w G w A h Bb w C

another approach involves 7 positions of the 3-note per string method.
The idea is you learn these 7 shapes and you will automagically know ionian, dorian, phrygian, lydian, mixolydian, and aeolian in any key starting from any string any fret -and the best part is you don't even have to learn the 7 shapes... just a few rules. the important thing you learn here is that there is only one mode - maj/ionian - all other modes are just the same "shape" with a dif root note.

alas, the box mode system is a great way to learn too... you learn five shapes and the lowest note on each shape is associated with the root of a mode... only this doesn't quite work out perfectly cause there are 7 modes and 5 box mode shapes, it is however much easier to stretch across.

all these methods are dif ways to learn the same 7 modes which is really only a small part of music theory... cause after you master that you learn about the harmonized chord scale, then altered scales, then key centers then key modulation and so on.

Thank you so much! Everyone has given me some things to work with, appreciated greatly.... Any chance of someone explaining the difference between scales and modes? Also, what is the definition of a broken chord?

And...this has been driving me crazy. I have a song that I've written, the root note of the chord that begins the song is F#. I've looked up several chords beginning with F# and cannot find it anywhere, in reality, it doesn't really matter what the chord is, but, I want to know. Are there any web based chord caculators out there, that I can put the notes of the chord into, and it will tell me what chord it is, or, how do I go about figuring out what the chord is?

If I have it right, I can play any scale over any chord pattern, as long as the scale is within the correct key...Is this right?

no idea what a broken chord is other than one that no longer transmits my gtr signal to my amp but afa scales/modes

modes are scales... they are a more specific reference to 7 different 'feels' you can get out of the single major scale. the names of the modes are ionian dorian phrygian lydian mixolydian aeolian locrian

there are millions of scalse so I can't possibly name them all... and technically you can get many modes out of other scales than the major scale but typically when ppul say 'modes' they refer to the 7 modes I mentioned above.

afa that chord... post the notes and I'll try to walk you thru figuring out what it's technical name is.

afa if I have it right: you can take many approaches... in jazz they tend to look at each chord and say: ok this is an a major chord... I can play the a major scale over it- that is always true. but the a major chord can be played many ways... you could have just the root and a third, you could have root -third -5th, root third fifth 7th, and many more.
say you are playing root 3rd... the notes of that chord would work with both the a major scale, AND the a lydian scale (I won't go into why).

another approach is to group chords to a key... if you have A maj c#minor F#minor -all three chords are in the key of A major and the a major scale will work over all three... but you could play also use Amaj and toss in a few notes from c#minor over the c#minor chord and so on.

I think the harmonized chord scale could clear some of this up... another member mentioned it briefly...
if you take the c major scale and construct chords based on each note of it... doing this by taking every other note and creating a chord... you end up with 7 chords (corresponding to the 7 notes in c - c d e f g a b c)

go ever other note from c = c e g b
that is a root, third, fifth, 7th and it creates the c major 7th chord

then every other note from d = d f a c
that is a root, minor third, fifth and minor 7th = d minor 7th

ultimately you end up with cmaj7, dmin7 emin7 fmaj7 g7 ami7 and bmi7b5

if you have a song that goes cmaj7 - g7 - ami7 it's in the key of c and will work well with the cmaj scale.

OUCH, not tonight honey I have a headache.
Millions of scales? Sounds more like a big assed fish than music theory.
I hate running scales, but I love the noodling that seems to always follow.

ok, ok, maybe not millions...

perhaps hundreds would be more accurate...

or 'more than I care to learn' would be most accurate...

way too many to name anyways.

lets see... harmonic minor, melodic minor, whole tone, whole half, spanish 8 tone, pentatonic, augmented, diminished, superlocrian, chromatic, major, minor, 7 modes (if you want to count them as unique scales)... that's about as many as I know.

oh and pelog...


any help?

Actually if you take 12 to the third power you will only come up with 1728 scales you can create,not including octaves. Remember any dom7 chord can be resovled by half step. Except for flat 9s all are politcally correct. That should make it easy to master any scale you can create. However if you start to figure in short scales, the numbers go even higher. HUH....
Thats how crazy you can get learning scales...Just go out and play,what sounds good to yourself.

where did you come up with 12 power 3? I didn't follow...

if I'm not mistaken this would be permutations not combinations... once you've picked the first note of the scale the next note would only have 11 choices... cause we can't have the sm three notes = scale. 12 x 11 x 10

not to mention: look at maj pentatonic vs maj... sm exact notes minus 2 yet we call them distinct scales.

maybe not perfect but... I would guestimate we would count up all possible scales (not counting those crazy indians that use half tones) by counting:
all 1 note scales (12) +
all 2 note scales (12 x 11) +
all 3 note scales (12 x 11 x 10) +
all 4 note scales (12 x 11 x 10 x 9) +
...
all 12 note scales (12)

- but this counts each shape starting on dif root note as a distinct scale - which may or may not be entirely accurate but since we're playing devils' advocate... and I'd like to get as close to a million as possible to prove my point (jk)...

we would have 12 power 12 + 11 power 11 + 10 power 10 + 9 power 9...
there's a formula for this one... can't recall it off the top of my head...

12 power 12 is 8,916,100,448,256





either way, 96% (jazz gets 4% - I dunno - just pulling numbers out of hats here) of western music revolves around one scale and it's modes.

my message is: learn all positions of the one scale and you'll know all 7 modes and that will get you through most of what you'll encounter...

YEAH you're right there are to many ways to look at it and maybe thats why so many people play music so differently.
I met a guy that fretted a guitar with a bunch of 1/4 tone frets and 1/2 tone frets. To each his own.
Personally I would love to try a guitar with no frets.

That would be a 6-string cello, Glen. heh heh heh

The super dreadnaught!

I've played a fretless guitar. Kinda limited in its use, if you ask me, though you can get some rather striking effects with it.