General Music Chat

Hey guys,

I had to share this one..... it really blew me away…. I started searching for a bass player for my little CD venture a couple days ago.... Well today I got the strangest response from one of our esteemed BM members... I got a response from a guy who from his profile, seems like a seasoned player…. Just what I’m looking for..)

He asked some questions about the project that I answered but the email I got back kinda took me back a bit…. He got really offended at the statement that I wasn’t going to pay hired guns on this project…

“if you can’t afford to pay people just say so!!” Hmmmm, somehow "I don't want to" translated into "I can't afford to"...

Then he moved to this.:
“"So you equate compensation with inconsistency and stagnation?" and went on about all the bands that don’t have full time bass players…. Somehow, the fact I was looking for contributors and I want the same players for all the songs so the music would be consistent and that I want people who are vested in the project and not just drive by players offended him, or seemed to…

I got a rather scathing lecture… it was really weird.. it felt like “how dare you ask me to take my bass out of the case for… for… free!!!” A simple “I like the tunes but it’s not something I want to get into” or “your songs suck, keep your day job” would have worked just fine….

So I must ask…
1. How many of you have gotten to the point that you only play music for money??
2. How many of you pay all your band members to practice and write songs?
3. And finally, how many of you understand the difference between players that have an investment in a project verses people who are just paid and move on?

I dunno.. maybe I just take a different approach to life… it makes no sense you could be doing this for 20 years and not get it….

X!

There's an easy answer to this. Ask the dude how much he wants to be paid to rehearse or do studio work. For the sake of argument let's say the dude wants $100 per session. Let's say you got four other musicians in the band. At the end of the session tell the dude he owes each one of them $25 apiece, since none of you play for free. "Hell, that makes us even, thanks for coming out!" Next rehearsal (or studio session) is next Thursday. Later...

I have been a guy that only plays for money for a long time. I say that I only play for money, but I do the occasional open mic, sure, for a few tunes. If I have to take my amp, & help set up the band, or if I"m performing for 3-4 full sets, yeah, I want to be paid for it, cuz it's a helluva lotta work!

I also don't hang out at parties & jam for hours. I love it a lot when ppl invite me to a party & make a big point for me to bring my guitar or bass. One day I'm gonna invite those same ppl to a gardening or carpentry party at my house ("Oh! & bring your shovel/hammer/whatever! It'll be FUN!")

I have never paid or been paid to rehearse, practice, or write songs. I'd like to be in that band, though! I'd get REAL good if I got paid to practice! What DOES that pay by the hour?

In order for me to have an investment in something, I want to be able to expect something for that investment. I've done the free stuff for "exposure," & while it looks good on a resume, it doesn't pay the bills or show ME any appreciation for my efforts.

Nah, I'll work in a band situation to get the chops up for performing, but I won't be in a basement band that doesn't play out. I also won't do studio work just to get a "thank you" on the CD cover.

If I were to play on someone's CD without payment, it would be on a barter basis, where I could expect something in return on my CD, or something...even if it were a friend.

I don't think that's at all unreasonable. Nor do I thik I've "lost the spirit of it all," being this way. I've accepted that what I do is worth something, & it is work - my chosen field of endeavor. Would you ask a Dr to heal you for fun? What he does is of no more worth than what I do, imo. He puts forth no greater effort at what he does. I guarantee that no matter how much schooling a Dr has, I've put in at least as many hours on my instruments & perfecting my singing voice. Same with any other professional. Why would I give that away? I will if they will.

Oh yeah, & I also do some benefits every year. I consider it my "pro bono work." Every pro should do some, I think.

Phil,

I understand that... especially if music is what you do for a living. So it makes sense... I guess I prefer the freedom that I get from playing because I want to. When you get payed, you are expected to deliver something to the individual paying you, and it needs to be to their satisfaction.

For my part I would rather grant creative license and share in that process than to be in a position to dictate what I want because it is costing me… Because there is nothing worse than getting a service that sucks and still having to pay for it...)

You mentioned some guarantee of compensation of some kind, but do you offer the same guarantee of satisfaction for the customer? So if I don’t like your second set I only have to pay you 50%?? …) LOL I would rather be free to not like what someone does and part ways with nobody butt hurt… or broke..lol

But I get you Phil, I’m just glad it’s not me... it never has been about the money, I just love to play and write music. I ‘m not knocking you but I would hate to be in a place where I always expected something in return for everything I do… especially for friends and family…)

Thanks for sharing that.. it helps me to see that thought process a bit more clearly…

X!

Eh, my family gets to hear me rehearse, so seeing me play isn't such a treat for them. LOL

I've never had anyone ask for a refund. I dunno how I'd handle that. Interesting question, though. It sure would go a long ways to make one humble, wouldn't it?

I didn't say I wouldn't play for the pure joy of playing. When I do that, however, there's no need for an audience, & in fact, they're an unwelcome distraction. Yeah, of course there are times when you have to play just to play. I'm as free to do that as the next guy.

I used to do that a lot more than I have after the ulna op.

But when an audience gets involved, it's no longer about me, it becomes all about "us," & that's a whole nuther animal.

And when I'm out as that pro, I accept nothing less than $100, & I give it every fiber of my being. For me, a bad show is when the audience isn't involved, & yeah, it happens, but that doesn't mean that I slack off the least bit. The audience gets their money's worth, whether or not they appreciate it. LOL

I don't worry about "being obligated to play music." I love it. In fact, being paid for it sorta legitimizes my work, in some dark lil corner of my headbone, & it tells me that I am doing just fine. Being paid can be rather liberating, if you look at it that way, as it frees you from the fears of "am I good enough?" Sure I am, or they wouldn't pay me to do this stuff!

I LMAO at the ones that want to be paid to come to rehearsal. Learn your songs come to one or two rehearsals to go thru the starts and stops and lets go play and make some money. I think the best way to handle it is to be sure there is some sort of contract between you and him as he will be helping you write your songs. The contract would insure to him if anything is ever done with these songs and they make money he gets compensation for his role in the songwriting process. That is all the compensation he should get IMHO!
I played in a Band called Rare Seed back in 1996 the best band I have played in to this day, very talented people and we should have made it. Two of the musicians in the band were the writers and arrangers we played probably 100 dates a year and took the proceeds from one gig a week and put it in the band checking account for the following weeks recording session at a legitimate recording studio. Over the period of a year we recorded an album some of which I have posted on my site here at BM. The recording project cost $12,000. So basically I spent $2500 of my hard earned Dollars not to mention my time to go and record my parts of which I stayed to watch and help everyone do their parts. I also helped write a verse to one song and wrote my lead guitar parts which IMO helped make the music way more interesting. I did all of that because I am old fashioned and truley believed my bandmates were my bro. and sisters. Well we had a good leader whom was very fair and because he was earning his associates degree in recording eng. was able to get us a deal on the studio time. Most of the songs were his and he had helped write most of the other ones. Right after we had finished the album the keyboard player got together with the bass player and drummer and decided they were going to take over the band and change the format. This freaked out the leader and he put in his notice incidentally he and I had started this band. He had previous dealings with these musicans and knew how underhanded they could be singularly but underestimated how they could be colletivectly. We had also bought a mixer and all pitched in on. Meanwhile the album won a very prestigious award here in H-town. They underhandedly got another guitar player to come in and play on a couple of songs at the award ceremony. They almost got disqualified for doing this so I heard through a common friend and that is the way I also found out about the award GRRR! So basically the band broke up and I asked for my share of the money I had invested in the mixer of which they discounted at a humongous rate and then before they paid me off they wanted me to sign away my rights to the album I had sacrificed so much to help make happen.

Sorry MadX I am not trying to hi-jack your thread I just wanted to tell my story so none of the younger players reading this would make the same mistake I did out of the goodness of there hearts. It has taken my heart years to get over what happened. One day I decided that I should practice what I preach you see one of my fav. songs is "Heart Of The Matter". A lot of people think the name of the song is "Forgiveness" which is what the song is about and I have been playing and singing it ever since it first came out! I couldn,t even listen to the Rare Seed album entitled "Into The Light" for years after that, but finally as they say time heals all wounds and I am over it! This could explain why this bass player reacted the way he did MadmX if you are in this Biz for long enough surely something similar will happen to most of you. Just please don't let it make you bitter as the resulting bitterness I had from my experience cost me a very dear lifelong friend.

JH,

You KNOW I feel you brother!

Went through something just as painful.


MadMx:

What is your CD "Project" about?

Most people would assume that you plan on profitting from it in some way, otherwise, why an album's worth of material?

I don't know that you should get so offended, when superficially, it appears you are asking for ALOT of work, and have no clear plan, if any plan, to compensate them for all their efforts.

It is not uncommon to compensate musicians for practice time for album projects, when you have no sheet music for them. If you brought charts into the studio, you could pay them a flat fee and a professional will knock it out, take your check and wish you well. You won't owe him another dime after that.

Mechanical royalties are paid to the "recording artist" which is either an individual or a band, depending on what the act is, and the album cover will reflect this. It is around 10 cents a song by now (haven't checked recently) for songs under 5 minutes in length, and are paid on albums pressed, not sold.

In other words, it appears you want "session musicians" but don't want to pay them. If they were "The Band" and were looking for a future together with you, then they might be willing to sacrifice studio time and practice time, and develop their own parts, in anticipation that you guys are in this TOGETHER for the long haul.

You are foraying into the BUSINESS side of music, and would be well served to show yourself as a professional, acting in accordance with standards of well established principles that true professionals understand and are used to.

A contract, in advance is a good idea.

Compensating people for their work, is a good idea, even if it is a PROMISE for compensation, made by contract for the future. In other words, if you don't want to pay them now, then formulate a contract giving them royalties and liner credits for each album you press. At least this way, no one feels taken advantage of.

Nothing stops you from formulating a BAND for a single project either. It's done all the time. You could find the right group of musicians, give yourselves a WORKING NAME and get your project done and market it and sell it as you please.

Make sure that the copyrights are in place. If you are writing all the songs, then you want to copyright these songs, and mark them clearly in your album.

Playing an astounding guitar riff (sorry guitar players) does not mean you co-wrote the song. A song, by definition, is lyrics and melody lines. If there are no lyrics, it is an INSTRUMENTAL and not a SONG. This is done, because some fair standard has to be achieved. If playing or even CREATING the BACKING TRACKS meant you helped write the song, then the first drummer who invented a 4/4 basic rock beat, would be among the richest musicians who ever lived, having received royalties from every drummer since, who ever played and recorded a 4/4 rock beat. See what I mean? It can seem unfair, because sometimes, that amazing lead solo, or a bass riff that goes through the song, makes the song. Think of the bass line on Michael Jackson's "Billie Jean". Very memorable, just as much as a melody line, and the song would be nowhere near the same without it. But this is not copyrighted. What is copyrighted is the words, and the melody lines that the words are sung to.

So while this seems sad to guitar players or drummers, the solution is, if you want songwriter royalties, then help write the songs, meaning the lyrics or melody line. Or make sure you are in a band that has a contractual agreement, that all songs written, are written by "THE BAND" which should have been trademarked with all member's names on it, and the copyrights to the songs would be copyrighted as "THE BAND" too.

It is ALWAYS a good idea to get contractual agreements out of the way EARLY ON. I tried to do this from DAY ONE with my former band, but they were lazy, and would never get together to do this, until we finally got into the studio for our debut CD. But by then, they decided they would like to OWN my songs too, and not just receive royalties from playing on the CD. But they didn't help write ANY of the songs, and even though I begged, would NEVER come over to a songwriting session. All that burden was MINE, and yet they wanted to STEAL it from me, when it looked like we were going somehwhere.

Get it out of the way EARLY!!!!

Well said Craig

lol This is why I buy all the equipment and sign nothing.

If someone wants to leave, i say fine.. Just don't think you are taking anything you can't carry in your head..dickweed.

Dickweed .... LOL .... one of my favorite little jabs.

Dickweed? Is that what grows on a PENAL farm?