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#76145 by Sir Jamsalot
Fri Jul 24, 2009 4:28 am
Colors, I appreciate the time, sincerity and effort in your reply. To be clear, I’m not trying to make a case for God’s existence on this board – I do that on another forum ;) The reason I broke into this thread the way I did is because while you implicitly claimed an agnostic atheism (“I believe what I believe because it makes more sense to me.”), you sometimes employed positive atheism quips that can be cutting towards Christians, such as:

“I like my position better. It doesn't rely on fiction”, and “I'm not interested in what you believe about some fictitious God or book based on said fictitious God.”

That’s fine if you intended to be cutting; after all, Christians are quite accustomed to being the recipient of poetic insults, so I wouldn’t have jumped in except for the fact that you don’t strike me as the type of person who really wants to be purposefully hurtful – I’m assuming this because you don’t like being the recipient of it:

“You may not realize you did it, but it was very insulting. When you say something like along the lines of 'there are no real atheists' - it's just hurtful and unnecessary.”

When I asked you about your personal atheism, I was trying to flush out whether you were purposefully trying to lay waste to Christians with those quips (positive atheists tend to flaunt Christians by calling what they believe “fairytales”) or whether you were just assuming that Christians would understand you to mean “in my opinion” ;)

Anyways, I’m done. If you want to explore the last question concerning science and logic, I don’t mind getting into it. I’ve studied philosophy for years and have a worked out epistemology. Not many people think about what is involved in claiming knowledge – they just presume that something is objectively knowable, or that laws of logic are conventional, but when you dig deep into how it’s possible to know the same fact in the same way as someone else who doesn’t share your same physical gray matter brain, it becomes very evident, very fast, that there is more to this world that meets the eye, in my opinion ;)

Regards.
Chris

#76146 by ColorsFade
Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:14 am
CraigMaxim wrote:
But sadly, Christians have gone astray, just as Muslims have gone astray.


Good post Craig.

And that quoted part - that's what I've been getting at. That's what makes a person like me turn away from religions. They go astray, they lose their way, their roots get lost.


I believe that at their core most religions mean well. But they fall prey to man's ambitions and fear and hatred. So the wrong people send the wrong message, and the people with the right message get drowned out.

#76148 by ColorsFade
Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:48 am
Chris4Blues wrote:I was trying to flush out whether you were purposefully trying to lay waste to Christians


I don't want to "lay waste" to anyone.

My preference would be if everyone would spend more time respecting one another and getting along and living their own lives.

#76151 by CraigMaxim
Fri Jul 24, 2009 6:11 am
Colors,

Maybe they need someone like you to keep them on the true path?

What happens to ALL religions, is that revelation is given. It is pure and simple and meaningful. The revealer shares it, alone for awhile, and usually under persecution. A price is paid, and the message takes hold, so that people are drawn to it. Then it builds and masses come aboard. Then it becomes mainstream and accepted, and the persecution ends for the most part, and the religion may even become the main religion of the entire nation.

Then power comes.

Then corruption comes.

And a culture builds up around the religion that wasn't part of the original revelation. Suddenly after time, the adherents have become more in love with the culture of their faith, than the original message of the faith.

They get comfortable.

They get lost, and don't even realize it.

Then...

It's time for God to send new revelation to spark the flame again, under a new umbrella, and wake the people up.

The new faith repeats the same mistakes over time.

It is cyclical.

But ideally, everyone is brought to a higher plain, before they get lazy and comfortable again, so that hopefully, the world is taking 2 steps forward for each step they go back.

Progress is made.

Just excrutiatingly slow progress.

#76175 by ColorsFade
Fri Jul 24, 2009 4:50 pm
CraigMaxim wrote:Colors,

Maybe they need someone like you to keep them on the true path?


No one would listen to me. I'm an Atheist.

#76176 by philbymon
Fri Jul 24, 2009 4:50 pm
"I have never been a racist..."

"I don't hate Muslims. I don't hate anyone. You haven't read all the thread. I know I type alot, but please, read it all, before assigning motives to me I have disavowed already previously."[b] (Now that's a tall order, Craig! Just say no to verbosity!)

[b]"Rather than hate Muslims, I love them, as God does, and understand where their anger comes from. They are descended from a slave woman who was then rejected and cast out. In the terminology of the past, they are "bastard" offspring, without a legitimate (legal) father. Disowned."


"I don't hate Muslims.

"I don't fear Muslims."
- REALLY? This certainly looks like you do - "You can overlook Muhammad's instruction for his followers to subjugate the ENTIRE WORLD, by force if necessary, and KILL ANY INFIDEL who will not consent to Muslim rule, but I assure you, many, if not most, of his followers WILL NOT overlook this instruction." - or this - "Their faith tells them to SUBJEUGATE THROUGH FORCE the ENTIRE WORLD." - doesn't sound like "love" to me! Sounds more like hate or fear or racism, but of course, that can't be, since it's coming from you, right?

"God told me that..."

"God has also told me..."

"So God has shared with me..."


"Recently, God told me that the world situation would decline over the next three years, with each successive year being worse than the one before it, for 3 years time. Interestingly, this takes us to 2012, which I didn't concern myself with that much, until God told me about the next 3 years.

"I've never shared these things here before, but the things God told me are so serious, that I felt obliged to share it, even though I realize I will appear whacky. I can't apologize though, for what I know, when God Himself tells me."
- this one's fun, cuz you get to tie into the Mayan calender, Nostradamus' & Edgar Cayce's prophesies, & others' as well! Gee, god really must mean it this time, since it came to you, too, right? You are a prophet, Craig!

"God has given me dreams and told me of things to come." - the last time I dealt with ppl claiming that god spoke to them, they stole my guitar & amp & said that god told them to. I haven't trusted ANYONE with such outrageous claims since. I find it kinda arrogant when I see ppl proclaiming their "faith" on bumper stickers, too. Religion is something that is a private affair, Craig, not something to wear on your sleeve to prove your righteousness & piety to the world. It's between you & your god. If your god wanted you to give his messages to the world, I'll bet he'd have you perform a few miracles to back them up, like he's done in the past...see Exodus

"How do you compare something that happened hundreds of years ago, to something occurring TODAY in a modern age..." - I love this one! Especially when it's followed by things like - "Islam was literally spread through the points of swords. Muhammad himself after forming his religion, turned warrior and took Mecca by force, leading an army of 10,000.

"Beginning in violence, one can understand how it continues in violence."
- or when it's prefaced by - "Islam is a religion virtually founded and certainly SPREAD through violence." - or - "There is mass exodus of Christians out of the Muslim world, because of their radical VIOLENT nature."

And that's just from this thread. There are plenty more elsewhere...



But this reigns as one of the most arrogant things I've ever heard - "Not meaning this arrogantly, but I truly believe that God Himself wishes there were more people like me."

I truly believe that you're a complete idiot if you think that you have the inside scoop on god's plan, dude. I also truly believe that your pride & arrogance actually LESSENS you in any god's eye. It certainly works that way with me!

You came back here & jumped right in again, typing pages & pages of your tripe, to bend ppl to your way of thinking, or to show off your great debating skills, or to exemplify your intelligence & knowledge. I dunno which is the reason, but when you add in little sweeteners like calling ppl who disagree fools & such, on the one hand, while claiming divine right & knowledge on the other, it's a bit much to take, Craig.

To quote Monty Python - "It's people like you what cause unrest!"

I think you could prolly suck the fun out of a naked carnival. Yeah, you're right. You come off a bit "wacky" to me!

LOL, I think this might be that cream pie you were talking about!

#76202 by CraigMaxim
Fri Jul 24, 2009 8:28 pm
Phil,

Regarding Muslims.

It is unlikely that you have developed very close personal reationships with many of them, but I have. I fear the radical nature of Muslim extremists, and the potential for normally peace loving Muslims to be caught up in the radicalism when the conditions are right. It is not unlike blacks who have rioted when something touches their sensibilities and they feel injustice being perpetrated on them as a race. Most of these people would not normally commit arson and loot businesses and so on. Some of this is a principle of social psychology known as "groupthink" and it's potential is there for any group, particularly one with adherence to excessive cohesion.

This last factor, excessive cohesion, is particularly applicable to a closed and strict system, such as the Muslim faith.

I have stayed with Muslims and been roomates with a few at different times of my life. And I have a good understanding of their beliefs and tendencies.

When 9/11 occurred for example. I was incensed, like virtually all Americans, but it did not affect my personal relationships with my Muslim friends. In fact, I had dinner at the home of one such friend, just weeks after these events. After dinner, I was served the intense coffee-mud (LOL) they drink... will give you a jolt for sure, and we sat down and watched a Muslim News Channel on cable together. They translated for me, naturally.

The news channel was LITERALLY reporting that Israel knew of the 9/11 attacks and did not warn America of them. The proof? There were NO JEWS IN THE TWIN TOWERS when the planes hit, so obviously they had all been warned by the Israeli Government - ALL OF THEM MIND YOU - All been warned in America to stay out of these buildings on that particular day.

This is a HUGE news channel reporting this.

And because it was Muslim TV, by and for Muslims, my friends believed this without question.

Think of the mindset, that would allow them to believe that the Israeli Government controls all Jews living everywhere, including America, and that they can ALL - MILLIONS OF THEM - be warned and told to do certain things, without our government's knowledge.

That offends any sense of normal logical reasoning.

But they DID BELIEVE THIS!

No evidence, no proof, no fact checking.

My friend is a very decent human being, who I would trust with my life. He is intelligent, a successful business owner. He has 7 kids, and is putting the oldest through college. He deals with people of all nationalities in his business, so he has extensive experience with people of other cultures, and gets along with all of them.

Yet he believes that ridiculous tale.

When people believe irrational things about events which can be verified... we are not talking about whether God exists or Aliens exist here... when they believe purported current events, that a simple moment of thought would dispel a person from believing, it is of great concern, where that could drive them, given the right situation.

Muslims which seem perfectly normal, can very well have this propensity for irrationality, and to do things you would think them incapable of, because of the intense fear and hatred of Jews, and the idea of self-preservation of their religion.

When it comes down to it, many Muslims are going to side with Islam, over rationality or anything else. Their faith, and their correct actions, are crucial to the afterlife and whether God will judge them favorably or not. Very religious people, even Christians, are more concerned with eternity, than with anything they have to deal with HERE when it comes down to making a decision. In other words, eternity is forever, and this life is temporal... I better err on the side of eternity if it comes down to it. Sometimes this could be a good thing, and sometimes not.

There is every reason to hope and believe that over time, Muslims will mainstream their belief system. This usually occurs among ALL faiths, but can take hundreds of years, even many hundreds, to accomplish.

Meanwhile, one nuke, one dirty bomb, going off here or in Israel, or maybe anywhere else, could set a chain of events in motion that cannot be stopped, and would only accelerate.

9/11 was very well planned, and it resulted in grounding ALL AIR TRAVEL in this country, for the first time in our history. They plan. They are heavily financed. This is not your daddy's terrorist. They don't mind waiting years and years, to put the right plan in motion. They have sent warnings already, that something to dwarf 9/11 is imminent. Their warnings are often accurate.

We will never agree on this. I accept that. But when these days come, while you may dismiss it as coincidence, others may remember the things I said, and may use it to aid themselves in those days.


Yes God talks to me sometimes.

And sometimes, in very serious ways. He trusts me. And I listen.

He sent angels to me once. I saw them. And I experienced something I had only really seen described in the Bible before, where it was so shocking and unexpected, that my heart felt like it was beating outside my chest. I thought I would have a heart attack for sure. On another occassion, He filled a room with light after a particularly intense 2 hours of prayer. A light so bright that I couldn't look at it, and it hurt my eyes, even with my eyes closed.

My wife is also very spiritual. She can hear dead people talking to her. At my uncle's funeral, she was meeting my family for the first time, and knew nothing about most of them. She only told me afterward, that my uncle had talked to her through the whole funeral. He was mad at the preacher, because it wasn't his preacher, and he said the minister was "full of sh*t" in what he was saying about him. The minister had said that my uncle was "ready" to leave this world, because Christ was his savior, and that he was ready to be with God in heaven. He told my wife that "My family was my heaven" and told my wife that it pained him to see them close the lid on the coffin, because he was afraid that once that lid closed, they would forget about him in time, and he was desperate that they not forget about him, and his love for them.

The next day, my wife and I were driving. She had not been to Jacksonville before, and had never been on a ferry before. I told her I was going to take her on one. We drove through the North side, and I was trying to remember how to get there, when she started telling me about my uncle talking to her during the funeral. She tried to ignore him, because she doesn't like when this stuff happens, but they see her reactions when they talk and they realize immediately, that she is often the one person in any given room, that can hear them. This makes them start yelling at her sometimes, because they want to communicate. They have something to say, and they know SHE hears them. She tries to turn it off, but when they are persistent, it is impossible. She will end up crying like a baby afterwards, because it is so emotional to her.

In any event, she is telling me these things while we are driving, when I realize, we have just passed my uncle's house! The one who had died. I took this as a sign, because we were passing his house, moments after she decided to tell me about him conversing with her. I told her I felt this was a sign, and we should stop and see if my aunt, his widow, was home. I really didn't want to go there at a time like this. This is when families surround themselves with their immediate family. But I KNEW it wasn't coincidence that this had happened. And that we were supposed to visit her right then.

We knocked on the door, and of course, my aunt was home with her children. They invited us in, and I wanted to feel out, whether it was appropraite to share these things with my aunt, immediately after the death of her husband. I decided I would wait for a sign. The moment I thought this, a dog came from upstairs, and straight to my wife, and put his head in her lap and barked at her for attention. There was another dog downstairs with us, but he never budged. My aunt tried to call the dog away, the one who had his paws on my wife's lap and was barking at her. But the dog was having nothing to do with it. He was intensely focused on her, and would not divert his attention, even for his owners.

My aunt said "I'm so sorry, this is unusual for him. He's usually stand-offish with everyone, but us... he must really like you. Wow, that's not normal for him."

That's about all I needed. I just needed to clarify one thing to be sure:

"Hey, you guys have several dogs, was this one my uncle's favorite by any chance?

"Yes! How did you know?"

That's when I told her that: I know this will sound whacky, but it's me here. I'm your nephew, you know me very well. I even lived with you and my uncle for 6 months when I was a kid.... I need to tell you something, and it needs to be private, with just us adults."

She sent the kids out of the room, and the animals too, but this one dog, my uncle's favorite, laid down on the floor and relaxed next to my wife's feet. I explained about my wife's gifts, I told her that I have seen my wife do this before, and it was real, not a joke. I then told my aunt what my wife had told me about my uncle. My aunt began to tear up, and said that everything my wife was telling her was true, and was the wording he would have used. Then my wife was visibly moved and said "He's here talking to me..." and she started crying, and I held her hand and said "It's ok baby, what's he saying?" And she began saying what he was telling her, how he wanted them to know he loved them, and please don't forget about him, and he directed my wife's attention outside through the glass doors, and told her that his favorite spot was sitting in this one particular spot on the deck outside, and watching his kids playing and watching the water, and that was his little piece of heaven on Earth." to which my aunt cried and said "He loved that spot. He would sit right there, for hours and hours... just hours, and was always so happy out there."

After a moment, my aunt ran over and hugged my wife, and told my wife: "You come into the kitchen with me sweetheart."

And they went off into the kitched to talk for a few minutes.

They came out arm in arm and my aunt's demeaner had changed dramatically from when we had first arrived. She was smiling, and seemed so much more at peace.

Before we left, my wife said to my aunt: "Oh, I forgot, he said he wants you to remember that he will always be right there with you and the kids, and also to tell you "I got the box... thank you!" and my wife said, "I don't know what that means, but that's what he said to tell you.

My aunt cried all over again, and thanked my wife for that, and said "I didn't tell anyone this, but I had placed a small box with things from me to him inside, and no one knew it was there, because I had placed it underneath him."

We left, knowing they were in a better place, and of course, my aunt fell in love with my wife right there, and didn't consider her or me whacky in the least, in fact, it brought peace to her.

I don't talk to dead people myself (thank God) and I don't want to. But I CAN feel them, and feel what they want me to do, when it is important to them.

One such recent case, was a mother who had lost her daughter in a motorcycle accident. Her daughter had gone to alot of our shows with my former band, because she was dating one of our rodies at the time. I never got a chance to really talk to her, so I didn't know much about her. Just that she fought alot with our roadie, and LOVED my music, and our band.

When she died, we had not had contact with her for several months, cause she had broken up with the roadie by then, and was dating another guy. The one that got her thrown from the back of a motorcycle.

Her mother however, contacted me through MySpace, and said: "You don't know me, but I am Stephanie's mom, and I hope you don't mind me contacting you, but I was very curious about this band, when I saw she had doodled your band's name and gig dates were all marked in her calendar, and it was clear the band meant alot to her for some reason. My friends said I should contact you guys, and maybe you would fill in the blanks for me, cause we were all curious about it... I mean, she had your band's name scribbled all over the place, on notebooks and pictures and just all over the place."

We began corresponding, the mom and me.

And then I got another friend request not long after.

The mom, had a best friend in high school, and they had recently connected again, after decades, through some other site, and had been reunited. Her friend told me that she knew I had been corresponding with the mom, and that it seemed to mean alot to her: "She goes on and on about what a great guy you are... but Craig, please don't tell her this came from me, but I am so worried about her! She has alot of prescription pills, and has been talking about wanting to be with her daughter in heaven... and be with her NOW! I think she may be having suicidal thoughts... I hate to ask you this, but do you think you could just write her another email, and I don't know, try and lift her spirits up? I don't want to lost my best friend again!"

I told her I would.

And I immediately wrote her an email, and asked God to give me the words. It was VERBOSE as you can imagine. But it was filled with God's words and encouragement, referenced certain bible verses God laid on my heart, and I got very tough with her at certain places of the email, cause I was writing what I felt God was saying and feeling toward her.

The next day, I got an email back from both, the mom and her friend.

The friend said: "I don't know what all you wrote her Craig, but thank you! She is a completely different person! Night and day. Of course she shared that she is still very sad over her daughter's death, but she has a whole new way of looking at it, and her faith has just come back. She is talking so positively now. Thank you Craig!!!!"

I also got an email from the mom, telling me how the email I sent had changed her life, and lifted her depression, and she knew she would see her daughter again, but in God's time, and she would have patience for whenever that would be, and she would now work on seeing what she could do for God, here and now, for whatever time, she herself had left.

She now calls me her son.

And her other daughter and I, refer to each other as brother and sister.

They came to one of our gigs to meet me in person. And we talked and cried, and they were brought up onstage while I dedicated my song "Fly" to Stephanie.

Later, I felt something pushing me to write a song for Stephanie. And when I started to write it, I felt Stephanie in the room with me, clear as day. She wanted me to write this song, and was VERY particular, about what she wanted it to say and even how the melody should go, cause I would settle on the melody for the chorus maybe, and could feel that she didn't like it.

I have written songs to comfort family members of loved ones who have passed, 3 other times before this, but NEVER ONCE did I feel the person with me in the room, let alone almost FORCING me to write it their way.

Sometimes I even argued with her, cause I could feel her frustration with me, and even said to her: "You know what Stephanie? I'm the one with the body! I'm the songwriter here! You don't like what I'm writing, then go find someone else who'll do this for you... good luck on that!"

But she was determined, and nothing would sway her, or make her change her mind.

But I actually started to tear up after this, and told her: "I'm sorry Stephanie, I realize, this may very well be your last chance to get the message you want, to your family. You deserve to have whatever message, whatever song you want! So, come on girl, let's do this. Whatever you want, however long it takes... I'm yours!"

I literally felt her place her hand over mine when I started playing the keyboard again, and FINALLY we got something she was happy with.

I made a video using that song as a background, and pictures of her I had gotten from her mother as the visual part.

It meant alot to the family when I uploaded it, and family members from all over commented it (when it was up on my old site that my old band got deleted)

Later, when I was on the phone with Stephanie's mom, I was telling the mom a bunch of things, that I hoped would encourage her further, and here is what happened... my wife had to relate this to me later, cause I don't HEAR spirits, and have only seen one once (other than the angels) I saw a spirit with my wife. We both saw the same person at the same time, and just that once.

But....

"I'm talking to the mom on the phone, with my wife next to me, and my wife jumps suddenly! And then she tells me that Stephanie was there with us, talking to my wife, while I was on the phone with the mom.

What I didn't know until my wife told me later was how this happened:

Stephanie started SCREAMING "Craig! Craig! Craig!!!!!"

And it made my wife jump! (cause she heard it, but of course, I don't)

And Stephanie saw her jump, and said "Oh, you can her me!"

All her attention had been on me (she knew I could feel her) and she was trying to talk to me, but when she saw my wife jump, she diverted all her attention to her.

Suddenly, my wife then blurts out loud: "I don't want to! Ok, fine... Craig, Stephanie wants to say something to her mom."

I said "Ok, she's here right now?"

She said "Yes, she's right beside me, and she wants her mom to know a few things."

I started telling the mom what had happened, but giving some background, like what had happened with my uncle years before, so she wouldn't think we were freaks or something.

Suddenly my wife gets agitated with me for taking too long:

"Baby.. CRAIG! Now! Right now! She wants to talk NOW!!!!"

I'm like "Ok, ok, I was just..."

And my wife cuts me off, and starts telling me what to tell the mom!

Later I said: "Baby, you didn't have to be so mean about everything, and demanding. I was just giving her mom some background!"

My wife said: "I know, I wasn't mad, she was. She kept yelling at me to get you off the phone, so she could say what she wanted to say."

I said "Really? She was mad at me? What did she say?"

She said: "Man, he never shuts up! Tell him I want to talk to my mom NOW!!!!"

I figured you guys would appreciate that part. :-)

But it progressed pretty much like my uncle did. My wife told her things that only she and the daughter knew, and we were unaware of.

It meant alot to the mom, as you can imagine. And we have been like family ever since.

So, yeah, this one was long... once again. Hell, this was a novel this time! LOL

But Phil, though these things likely won't convince you of how real God is, and how real spiritual things are...

Some hearts here will feel the depth of this, and it will be one more thing in their lives, showing them, that the world to come, is actually MORE REAL than the world we are in presently.

I know you are an angry person, and mad at the world.

But God loves you.

Not in a slogan type of way.

You are his son, and He knows you as only a father can. He has been on your case for a long while, and only on certain occassions, and you know when these are, I don't, but you and Him do, there is a crack, an open door, where you feel good, and you think things are going the way they should, and your heart is open, and you are calm and not as mad, and you feel Good. And those times are far and few between. But he loves seeing you during those times, and longs for the day, when you let this happen more often.

And that's what I feel from God's heart.

So be insulted if you must.

You need to know that.

Sorry for being the one to tell you.

I know I'm going to pay for that.

But He wanted you to know.

#76213 by ColorsFade
Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:39 pm
CraigMaxim wrote:Phil,

Regarding Christians.

It is unlikely that you have developed very close personal reationships with many of them, but I have. I fear the radical nature of Christian extremists, and the potential for normally peace loving Christians to be caught up in the radicalism when the conditions are right. It is not unlike blacks who have rioted when something touches their sensibilities and they feel injustice being perpetrated on them as a race. Most of these people would not normally commit arson and loot businesses and so on. Some of this is a principle of social psychology known as "groupthink" and it's potential is there for any group, particularly one with adherence to excessive cohesion.


Just making a point...

You may be afraid of radical, extremist Muslims. I know a lot of Americans who are just as afraid of radical, extremist Christians.

Keywords here: radical & extremist.

Every religions has these people. I don't think singling out a religion is any way to cope with it or discuss it.

You, Craig, are targeting Muslims. I'd be much more interested in a discussion about radical, extremists of any religion, and why they behave that way, and what we, as people, might be able to do about it - how we might be able to resolve our differences in a peaceful manner.

Saw a bumper sticker today... picture of Ghandi on it. Said, "An Eye for an Eye leaves the whole world blind"

#76217 by Chippy
Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:57 pm
To my knowledge I've never EVER lived in a fear bound society such as this. I say my knowledge because that is what I've known at first hand.

Trade Centre rebuilt yet?

It should be because it was an icon.

#76227 by gbheil
Fri Jul 24, 2009 10:19 pm
I am no racest either. I flucken hate EVERYBODY !!!!

Good thing I know what this attitude would get me in the end, if not for the blood of Christ.
Else I'd make Hitler and Khan look like pussies.

#76232 by CraigMaxim
Fri Jul 24, 2009 10:38 pm
Colors,

I don't believe in an eye for an eye.

I believe in love and forgiveness.

But perfecting those things is a lifelong pursuit.

The reason I am paying special attention to radical Muslims, and I feel like I keep repeating this point, is that THEY are the ones both seeking nuclear weapons and have the finances to achieve this, as well as the will to carry it out.

Radicals of any group are dangerous.

But none of these groups have the ability to acquire nuclear weapons and dirty bombs.

I read an article once, that claimed that experts believe that America WILL BE the victim of a nuclear attack. They believe it is a question of "WHEN not IF". These are experts on nuclear weapons issues.

That's a frightening thought.

What I also know, speaking from a spiritual perspective, is that the world is on the cusp of a new day, where science and reason lead the way in cooperation on physical issues, and love and compassion lead the way in cooperation on spiritual issues.

For the new to be born, the old must die.

Birth is a painful process, and a fragile one.

Death is worse.

Think of killing a snake, where, though live is ending, it's nerve endings still cause it to thrash about furiously.

The world is about to go through the sames death throws, as the old is forced to give way to the new, and it is a violent process, letting go of life, thrashing about madly and wildly.

Those who resist change, fight it with everything they have. They refuse to accept the new. They strike out madly and furiously. The closer we get to that new world, the more intense the resistance, and the violent objections to it.

They lose in the end.

But a huge price is paid in blood.

The martyrs pay a heavy price, but the heart of the world is shifted, and therefore their indifference shifts, and the tide of public opinion shifts.

This has always happened.

Slavery was like this: Civil War before they are freed.

Civil Rights was like this: National Guard protecting children going to school, because of violent actions by police against protestors and the governor himself refusing to integrate schools.

Everything intensifies at a major time for change.

The issues mentioned above caused extensive loss of life but these were local issues, central to one nation.

When the WORLD is on the cusp of change.

This would be magnified enormously.

The world will find peace soon, but only after the worst loss of life history has ever seen.

Then there will be 1000 years of peace, just as the Bible predicts.

And the Bible says after this: "Satan is loosed for a short while"

This is a metaphor.

What happens (my sense of it anyway) is that the world has been cooperating for generations, not wanting to see the last war and all it's loss of life repeated. This cooperation lasts for many generations, but after 1000 years, selfishness and a return to violence rears it's ugly head once more. By then new worlds in the cosmos have been discovered, and begun to be settled. With technology advancing to this level, where spae travel is common, when new worlds are discovered, it enters the hearts of some people that they could be like gods in the new world. Greed and the desire for power makes them forget the past temporarily.

Whatever happens to stop it, is brief.

And the cosmos will never see violence again.

Not ever.

We would have evolved to a very high state, where primitive motivations and fears have been extinguished, and not even considered any longer.

#76253 by ColorsFade
Fri Jul 24, 2009 11:14 pm
CraigMaxim wrote:
I read an article once, that claimed that experts believe that America WILL BE the victim of a nuclear attack. They believe it is a question of "WHEN not IF". These are experts on nuclear weapons issues.


Do you think the chances are greater or lesser with someone like Bush in office?

See... I think it's probably an inevitability that there's going to be a nuke in the US just because of the worldview of us. If we keep going down this path - if we keep trying to bully the world and force our beliefs on the rest of the planet - they yeah. Someone will nuke us.

But we have a chance to change things by electing leaders who have the ability to show respect toward the other nations of the world; people who can actually practice some diplomacy.


Being attacked is all about relationships. When people hate you, they want to kill you. When people like you, they leave you alone and work with you cooperatively to solve problems.

I think we are as much a part of the equation as the radicals are.

#76272 by CraigMaxim
Sat Jul 25, 2009 1:10 am
Colors,

What you are saying, I can agree with, when the parties are BOTH looking for peaceful coexistence. The part of the world we are discussing though, is only now entering the modern age, and only recently, flush with cash.

As this part of the world develops and matures and becomes MORE wealthy, it is inevitable that the thirst for power increases. Nations have personalities, because their leaders do, and the actions of the nation are representative of the decisions of those leaders. So we say "A nation is agressive" or "maturing" or whatever. It is PEOPLE who run nations, so you can apply in a general manner, what you know about human nature, to motives and potential actions of a country as a whole.

Let's go out on the playground:

There are young men hanging out. Some are stronger than others. Some are weaker. Some are followers. Others are leaders. Some are mean. Others are more understanding. In this case, we'll say that the biggest baddest kid their, knows he is big and bad, and really feels no need to hastle other kids, because they are afraid of his size. But below his status, there are the rest. Some are stronger than others, and some weaker. One of the kids that is pretty strong, but not as strong as the big kid. When the big kid is not around, he picks on the other kids, and wants to lord over them, to make himself feel important. But when that big kid is around, he always gets in the way, and will stop him from hastling the weaker kids. So, from time to time, the lesser big kid, thinks he is ready to challenge the big kid, and he takes shots at him from time to time. He is always put down though, cause he just isn't big enough yet.

Your assessment seems to be, that if the big kid stayed out of the playground, then the lesser big kid, would not be jealous any longer, and would change his character, and suddenly become benevolent to the weaker kids.

My position however, is that because of human nature, when the big kid abandons the playground, the bully will only take over the playground, because he is desperate for the respect that the big kid gets. The other kids will be afraid, and rightly so, because there is now NOTHING standing in his way from lording over more kids, one by one.

Sure, this lesser big kid may become benevolent eventually, but only after he has been on top for awhile. Only after he has satisfied the deep jealousy which has built up over time. He will do the bad thing first, before he is either put in his place, or has a change of heart.

This is not merely about America influencing the Middle East.

They hate Israel. They want to destroy it.

They hate America for it's position in the world. They want to assume it for themselves.

Everyone wants what the richest guy has.

And they resent him for having it.

Everyone wants to be on top. This is human nature. From individuals, to businesses and groups, to tribes and nations.

Someone powerful, is going to have influence over someone weaker. A powerful nation is going to have power over a weaker nation. Simply because they are unprotected. They are smaller. Or weaker. They cannot defend themselves, and so someone... or some nation, is going to take advantage of this fact, if there is something there worth having.

The question is:

Which kid do you want running the playground?

The biggest kid, who is powerful but more benevolent. Or the lesser big kid, who is a bully, and will be more cruel and domineering?

Latin America is longing for it's next Simon Bolivar, and the Middle East also, has no shortage of men like Sadaam Hussein who want to achieve the same thing there. Unite those countries under one banner, and thereby control much of the world's oil supply, in effect holding a noose around their economies. And control all the wealth in the region. They want to duplicate America's feat, and therby hold the same power.

But America, in spite of it's many mistakes, has been a relatively benevolent "big kid". The Soviet Union swallowed up it's satellite countries and maintained control over them through force.

America's former enemies, like Germany and Japan, are independent nations today, wealthy with a high stadard of living, modern countries, and our trading partners.

Few countries in history have acted this way toward former enemies. Generally when one country gets power over another, it uses it in cruel and self-rewarding ways.

And before the lesser comparisons come out, that we do profit from relationship with countries we have influence over...

I am speaking of real cruelty and real raping of the country's resources.

Think of Japan when they occupied Korea, and FORCED them to abandon their culture and religions and even LANGUAGE! Their women were raped at will, their men forced to work for Japan, and wear Japanese clothes, and speak the Japanese language.

This is more in line with what most countried have done when they occupied other nations.

America's Christian values have not always served her well, but they have made her more benevolent, more often, than any other country in history.

#76281 by Starfish Scott
Sat Jul 25, 2009 2:08 am
cliff notes?

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