General Music Chat

Wow! From healthcare to God, huh...

I associate the word "God" with the word "Love"; "Devil" with "Fear."

I rather see someone who believes that God is love and love is in "everyone", than seeing someone who believe that God is the puppeteer of mankind and we shall obey him (without questioning it)...sort of speak!

I wish more religious ppl be like you.

Very well written there Dave

Here's a tip you might want to become aware of for further conversations: Atheism is a disbelief in God. *snip* - when having a discussion about Atheism with an Atheist.

CF - disbelief as in a positive assertion "there is no God", or more of an agnostic approach - "we can't know, so I'll remain skeptical until I see a miracle that convinces me personally" ?

I ask because depending on the atheist you ask, the term can mean either.

Atheist - doesn't believe in the existence of a supreme being.

Agnostic - doesn't know either way.

I consider myself an Atheist. I really believe there is no God. However - I also consider myself a person of logic and reason and scientific belief - so I consider myself capable of changing my mind in the face of contradictory evidence.

I didn't attack you for being an atheist in any way.

You may not realize you did it, but it was very insulting. When you say something like along the lines of 'there are no real atheists' - it's just hurtful and unnecessary.

I mean, I understand what you're saying - you believe in God so you believe every person has a relationship with God whether they believe in that relationship or not. It's the old "you may not believe in God, but he believes in you!" thing. I get that. Its basically saying, "What I believe is true, and you're basically unaware of that truth." And so from the other perspective it's no different than an Atheist saying, "There is no God, and you're just unaware of it".

But the difference is in how you RESPECT other people's beliefs. I don't believe in God or the divinity of Jesus. So by your logic I could say there are no Christians because there really is no Christ.

But that's just hurtful.

Because whether I believe in Jesus and God doesn't matter - it only matters to Christians. So they come up with their own faith and their own name for it. And as a show of RESPECT - even though I don't believe in their deity - I call them Christians and acknowledge their faith, because that's what THEY believe.

Atheists believe there is no God. The RESPECTFUL thing for you to do is treat Atheists the same way they treat you and acknowledge THEIR definition of their own beliefs.



Does that make sense?

J HALEY. THANX for trying to explain the things that I can't type. The biggest thing that people don't understand is why we ,as a nation care about all the people of the world. Yet so many jump in to condemne. ALL YOU PROUD AMERICANS..... STAND UP AND BE PROUD THAT WE CAN HELP SO MANY LESS FORTUNATE PEOPLE OF THE WORLD..... Including Canada.

Here's a tip you might want to become aware of for further conversations: Atheism is a disbelief in God. *snip* - when having a discussion about Atheism with an Atheist.

CF - disbelief as in a positive assertion "there is no God", or more of an agnostic approach - "we can't know, so I'll remain skeptical until I see a miracle that convinces me personally" ?

I ask because depending on the atheist you ask, the term can mean either.

Atheist - doesn't believe in the existence of a supreme being.

Agnostic - doesn't know either way.

I consider myself an Atheist. I really believe there is no God. However - I also consider myself a person of logic and reason and scientific belief - so I consider myself capable of changing my mind in the face of contradictory evidence.

Well, I think everyone who holds a position believes they're being reasonable about that position - I mean not many people have a disclaimer saying "I'm Illogical, but I believe this and think you should too!"

So you would assert there is no God, in the positive sense. You understand the burden of that position right? I mean, most atheists acknowledge that the nature of a person's knowledge is finite, therefore apart from omniscient knowledge, he can't justify the positive claim. This is one reason why I asked about your definition of atheism - in debate circles, atheism for all intense purposes has to retreat to an agnostic definition for this very reason.

As for logic and science, I would ask where in nature does one find logic. Is it abstract in nature, or physical in nature (like a nose or a tree)? And because the nature of science is dependant on evidence, and evidence is always being uncovered, you certainly can't lean on science for anything more than a current possibility to back up a positive assertiion that there is no God.

Epistemology is so much fun ever see the Matrix?

Chris

Thanks Howlin. I feel better today.


Shakes head slowly, takes deep beathe, exhales in deep deep sigh.

Well I can see I have job security. (and I dont mean nursing)

Sans,

What happened? You ok?

I mean I know about the out of town relative problem you had at work, but are you talking about something else? If so I missed it.


Colors,

I don't have a way to resolve this with you I suppose. I have expressed as clearly as possible that I FULLY UNDERSTAND your belief system, and that when I suggest there are no real atheists, it is spoken from the position of my worldview and philosophies alone. If I would have assaulted you for your position I would understand your feeling demeaned. But this didn't occur.

I'm sorry you took offense, but I think you understand now, that I wasn't
"being" offensive to your position, even though it felt that way to you.

We're just having a discussion. Sharing viewpoints and opinions.

I understand what you believe. I understand your terminology. I support your right to believe it, and use any terminology you want.

Hopefully that will be extended to me as well?

Because words like "Atheist" are not exclusive terms. The word is part of both your worldview and mine. We simply think of it in different terms. We both have a right to use the term as we choose. What is important, for the purposes of a constructive discussion, is that we both UNDERSTAND what the other means. That insures a conversation without confusion, whether we end up agreeing on an issue or disagreeing.

I understand your view.

I hope you understand mine?

And btw... "Christian" was not a term originally chosen by followers of Christ. It was originally a term of derision applied to them by others. After time, the derisive quality dissipated, and now it is a term commonly accepted without any negative connotation to it. Other than the fact that some people run when they hear it. LOL

Just a point of historic interest.

Well, I think everyone who holds a position believes they're being reasonable about that position - I mean not many people have a disclaimer saying "I'm Illogical, but I believe this and think you should too!"

They may not have the disclaimer, but that's how a lot of people operate; especially people of the Christian faith. Those kindhearted folks who like to remind us Atheists and Agnostics and every other nonbeliever that we're going to their Hell because we don't believe the way they do...

That's one thing you won't find an Atheist doing - informing you that you're going to eternal damnation because you don't believe the same way.

So you would assert there is no God, in the positive sense. You understand the burden of that position right?

It's the same "burden" that religious people carry - you have a belief in something for which you have no absolute proof.

I believe what I believe because it makes more sense to me.

And for other reasons... that have more to do with man's cruelty to each other.

I mean, most atheists acknowledge that the nature of a person's knowledge is finite, therefore apart from omniscient knowledge, he can't justify the positive claim.

And neither can a Christian justify their positive claim. But they sure are adamant that God exists.

This is one reason why I asked about your definition of atheism - in debate circles, atheism for all intense purposes has to retreat to an agnostic definition for this very reason.

Bah. I'm not worried about "debate circles" or winning//losing/retreating. Save that for the philosophy majors.

I care about what I believe and how it affects my quality of life. My life experience - my anecdotal evidence - tells me there is no God. Once I came to that conclusion, I felt a great sense of satisfaction. It was like being wrapped in a warm blanket. I felt content with that conclusion. I am sure this is no different a feeling than when a religious person has some sort of religious experience, and believes they've been in touch with God. They feel certainty in that experience.

But given our 'finite' knowledge to work from, I like my position better. It doesn't rely on fiction. It makes more logical, rational sense (at least to me).

As for logic and science, I would ask where in nature does one find logic?

Why is that question important? If we humans can define a term, like logic, and accept it and use it, then isn't that enough?

Where in nature does one find faith?

I'm not even going to attempt to answer that; I'm just asking it as a way to shed light on the question you're asking. We humans defined faith for ourselves, so we accept the term and use it. It has a specific meaning to us.

Logic has as specific meaning to us. We accept it and use it.

It seems like a blind alley question to me. No point.

And because the nature of science is dependant on evidence, and evidence is always being uncovered, you certainly can't lean on science for anything more than a current possibility to back up a positive assertiion that there is no God.

Is anything more necessary?

Is it really necessary to know anymore more than what we know today?



The big thing - for me - is how my beliefs affect my life and how they make me feel. This is why I've never begrudged anyone for their own religious beliefs. If what they believe makes them feel better - then that's what they should believe.

Where I get angry is when those very same people decide that they need to force their beliefs on me, because they're so certain they're right, and I'm going to eternal damnation for my beliefs, so they have to save me. And by the way, we've got a bunch of rules for you to live by while we're indoctrinating you into our religion, because we've got the patent on morality. And we've got some prejudices we need to hammer into your brain, because we can't have these sinners running around the world mucking it up, so let's make sure we breed as much hatred as possible... Oh, and hey - how about 10% of your money while we're at it.


You know - I just don't need all of that. I don't need the hate, the fear, the guilt. I don't need the illogical fairy tale stories. I don't need other people judging me right and left - I'm a harsh enough critic on myself, thanks.


You know - I read what Craig writes about love - and it for a moment I feel like we could almost be friends. But I know we couldn't, because his Christian beliefs wouldn't allow something like gay marriage.

I mean - I'm straight - I simply love the beauty of a woman's body. It's art, to me. But I don't have a problem with anyone of any sex doing anything with another consenting adult. And you know why? Because love is so strong an emotion, and so powerful, and so truly rare - I would feel like a total ass for trying to take that away from someone.

I have this belief - and it's probably a strange belief - but I believe in the power of love. Not as coming from some external, invisible deity - but just the power of the raw emotion between two people. It's just a chemical reaction in the brain, but it's so powerful... You can't really control who you love. It just happens. And it's such a special feeling - to love someone and have that love returned, and to know you'd do anything for them - so I just don't see the point in hating people and causing fear and spreading fear because another human being found love in a different way than I did... It seems like a crime against life itself.

Our constitution says Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. I feel like it ought to read - Life, Love, Liberty... I mean, what could be more important that experiencing love?


I don't have faith in an imaginary super-being; I've got faith in us. The human race. I marvel at what we've done while we've been on this planet for such a short time.

A beloved Aunt passed away recently. And while I attended her funeral, I was marveling at how long she was with us. She lived to be 94, so she saw almost a centuries worth of human invention and human changes. The planet isn't anything like it was 90 years ago. Could she even have imagined a computer, or men on the moon, or the space shuttle, or the space station, or the iPod?

I marvel at what I'll see in my lifetime. Will we go to Mars? Will we colonize a planet far away? Will we finally encounter life from another solar system?

I marvel at the universe and all its wonder. How awesome it is to simply be here to witness it, even if its for as short time. I feel lucky.

I feel all of that without needing to believe in a God, or join a religion, or be judged as a sinner and repent, or drink whine and eat crackers, or hate people for being different from me...

It just seems easier, to me, to appreciate the grandeur of our world and our universe without all the baggage of a religion attached to my belief system.

So there you go.

Wow, guys, what is up with the extremely long posts...talk about over analyzing ppl's opinions

At the end of the day, does it really matter???





naa, don't mind me...I'm just venting...lol

Wow, guys, what is up with the extremely long posts...talk about over analyzing ppl's opinions

At the end of the day, does it really matter???
naa, don't mind me...I'm just venting...lol

I rather enjoy discussions like this - not the heated ones tho. Not much sense in getting all "riled up" on a musician's forum

haha, I know, but a few posts are starting to sound like a broken record

I am fine Craig. Been working a lot, am tired. Nursing taxes my body, my mind and my soul.
I'd love to jump both feet into this "religious" discussion.
It is such a simple, beautifull thing for me.
But, I think I will just let my music do the talkin.

For now.

well sorry for the part I've played in this...


I'm really quite frustrated- with the internet we have a flood of information and opinions so mixed and mashed together that even the professionals of their respective fields cannot tell the difference between truth and BS.

I'm agnostic, didn't mean to insult the bible, like I said... just frustrated right now... so it's coming out in strange ways.

let's just let this thread die already. Too much bickering. We're all musicians, and we're all americans... and for those who aren't... well.. we're all earthlings, right?

We're more alike than not.. so wth.. let's party!

ColorsFade,

Get ready for more square pegs fitting into the round hole.

I DO support Gay marriage. But I approach this, not from a religious or moral viewpoint, but from a civil rights viewpoint.

I think it violates your civil rights not to be allowed equal access to marriage as straight people enjoy. Civil unions don't satisfy me on this, because they are not equal, when straight people are allowed something else called "marriage" and homosexuals aren't. Either allow everyone marriage, or give everyone civil unions. Anything else is a violation of civil rights. When homosexuals are protected from discrimination in the workplace, then the government is sanctioning this as a viable lifestyle choice worthy of equal protection under the law. How then do they, with the other hand, turn around and discriminate themselves? It is illegal in my opinion.

I understand why traditional Christians are upset over this, but it is generally the same reasons they would freak out if "In God We Trust" came off the dollar bill. Which it will, so prepare yourselves now. LOL

But God could care less about what logo we put on our money. He is interested instead in how we relate to Him, and how we treat one another. We are superstituous, but God isn't.

If someone is concerned about the general moral climate of the nation, the solution is not putting slogans on things, or changing laws to try and legislate morality. You can legislate moral principles by changing laws, but you CANNOT legislate changing the heart, And changing the heart is what people of God should be concerned with. The solution is not supporting political candidates who can be coerced into turning our nation into a theocracy... which is the very thing our early settlers were fleeing themselves.

The solution is first practicing love in your own life, and then spreading that love, by loving others, and devloping caring relationships with them. The power of Christianity, is the love of God, as displayed through the sacrifice of Jesus, who loved unto death, even appealing for forgiveness to those who were executing Him, even doing this WHILE he was being executed. This is what changes hearts, THE EXAMPLE, witnessing loving human beings in action, which then makes you feel:

"How could that person love in that kind of circumstance? I don't think I could do that. I'm not used to seeing someone do that. I have learned to survive and look after number one, but this person thought of others even before his own life! Wow! If everyone did that, instead of living for number one as most do now, then who would be in need for anything? Who would want for anything? Everyone would be fulfilled, because everyone would be giving to one another, loving one another. Hmm... maybe "I" could have a heart like that? Maybe if "I" change and grow, it would encourage others to do the same? Anger and hatred have a way of spreading fast, why not love? I think I want to try!"


Instead, many, if not most ministers, are more concerned with passing out voting guides to "help" religious voters and others decide the "right" candidate, and skirt IRS rules by loophole. Instead, they are too busy pointing out the "evil" in other churches theologies, instead of working together with them for the betterment of their communities, nation and world. Instead they are spending an inordinate amount of time deciding what color the carpet in the sanctuary should be.

If more Christians were going door to door and sharing the love of God as displayed through Christ Jesus, then laws would be unecessary.

Christians are pleased as punch that "THEY" have been freed from the law (according to the scriptures) and yet they want to stiffen the law for everyone else now. How selfishly contradictory is that?

This country was founded in large part by religious peoples who were FLEEING theocratic government, and yet today's churches would love nothing better than to restore that theocracy HERE!

Christians tend to cry that America needs to return to it's roots, when it is actually THEY THEMSELVES which need to return to their roots.

The roots of loving thy neighbor, the roots of forgiveness, the roots of tolerance, the roots of being less concerned about Caesar (government) and BE MORE concerned about reaching others with God's love and forgiveness.

Now I look like I hate Christians.

But I don't hate Christians either. I am a follower of Christ, although modern Christians would have some trouble accepting this. But, I am a Christian myself.

But sadly, Christians have gone astray, just as Muslims have gone astray. Everyone has a precious part of the truth they are holding onto... Christians, Muslims, Bhuddists and Atheists too. And we are clinging so tightly to the parts we have right, that we can't see, let alone acknowledge the parts the others have right! Which is a damn shame, because if we could learn from one another and put the pieces together, we would find that we, ALL OF US TOGETHER, then would have more of the truth, then we have ever had before. More of the truth than we can ever have, isolated and alone in our hard core dogmas.

God's heart is breaking over this.

I feel it breaking.

It makes mine break too.

Kramer,

Thank you for calling for reason and undwrstanding, and I hope you aren't mad at me for making another post... but stopping the conversation is not required to accomplish civility.

The fire initially came from past experiences. People are used to others yelling in their face, and labelling them because they disagree with their viewpoints. And so it is natural for people who have endured that (and they have, on any side of any issue) and begin to POSTURE in preparation for what they know is coming.

I think we've moved past that, in this thread.

And if so, then real coversation can be enjoyed. And likely, we will all give one another something to think about and consider, and in a way we hadn't considered previously.

Of course that's just a guess.

There may be more cream pies to be thrown! LOL