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#76034 by Dave Couture
Thu Jul 23, 2009 5:19 pm
Prevost82 wrote: ... religions wants control over your life and to control free thinking and if you do everything right, your next life will be glorious ...


THAT is exactly why I became an atheist, about 20 years ago. That and all the hate and killings that surrounds religion. Don’t get me wrong, I truly respect ppl’s right to religion and I will never try to interfere with someone’s’ religion. However, in my mind and heart, I trully believe that the world would be better without (don’t hate me for saying that)!

And, I know, I know, if we didn't have religion, we'll find something else to kill each other over......I guess we will never find out!!!

#76036 by ColorsFade
Thu Jul 23, 2009 5:33 pm
CraigMaxim wrote:
There is only one likely reason, because it's adherents claim it to be infallible and perfect in every respect, and so when you find it to not be perfect, you reject it altogether. Which means, you are investigating it for yourself, and yet using a standard you don't even believe in, to reject it.

That's intelligent.


You're a true-believer Christian Craig. So it's not likely you'll ever be able to open your mind to the perspective of someone who doesn't believe in the existence of a supreme being.

If you could see things from that perspective, you might have a better understanding of how those people view the Bible. Because the two are connected.

Whether you believe in the Bible literally or not is almost irrelevant. The point is that you believe in the God that the book is based on. So the two are connected. You believe in the God, you believe in the book.

Now - take a minute to think about it from the perspective of someone who doesn't believe in the existence of the God. What do you think the Bible looks like to them?

It looks mostly like an embellished fish story.

("I caught one |--------- this big --------| mom!")



Anyway...

#76037 by philbymon
Thu Jul 23, 2009 5:34 pm
CF - quite right - no rights is where we are headed if we continue in this frame of mind...

Craig - how nice for you! I've had simliar occurances in my own life, but I attribute them to something other than the christian gods. Frankly, I have no way of knowing when the tales of Tyre were written - before or after the fact - but all I can say on the subject is "so what?" Even if it IS a fact that this was an actual prophesy that did come true, does it mean that judaism or christianity is the "one true faith?" Not necessarilly. As far as I can tell, most of the prophesies concerning the messiah were manipulated by Jesus, since he had read about them in advance, according to the bible. Many of the miracles in the book are identical to those found in other religions. Does this mean that any of the others are right? Not according to your "true believers" of any given faith. Thus, all I can do is look at it all with a healthy amount of skepticism, & ackowledge that there is very little that I actually can know for a fact...or that I can believe in, 100%.

You seem to be taking a purely christian view of all of this, even as you claim to have such a worldly view, & I find that to be very revealing. It puts you in the category of "ppl I don't agree with." Never will, either. It also puts you in the category of those with that "us vs. them" mentality, that I find so childish & unfair to others. It erases all your claims of "logic," as well. Sorry, but that's how I see it.

There is absolutely no way you will sway me on this or many other subjects, with your overly strict views. You are always going to come from a point of weakness with me, & no name-calling or belittling on your part will change that for me. You simply cannot look at things logically, or even with any sort of open mind, as you can always claim "divine right" over all. This also puts you in the same category as those you so vehemently oppose, who also claim their own divine right. A pity, that, but I cannot change you, nor would I want to. You're pretty amusing, sometimes, & you have a lot to offer in other areas.

With your views, opposing so many others like it does, I can see how all of this started, & can pretty much see where it will go, if you have your way, & I will not agree to that.

So this is a pointless exercize...& I'm off to talk about other stuff that won't allow you to try to change my beliefs, or to belittle me for having different opinions. Peace, love & frisbee, man. We'll never ever see eye to eye on much, & I don't care, as long as you don't get into politics & make things worse than they are. heh heh heh...

#76038 by Sir Jamsalot
Thu Jul 23, 2009 5:34 pm
Dave Couture wrote:
Prevost82 wrote: ... religions wants control over your life and to control free thinking and if you do everything right, your next life will be glorious ...


THAT is exactly why I became an atheist, about 20 years ago. That and all the hate and killings that surrounds religion. Don’t get me wrong, I truly respect ppl’s right to religion and I will never try to interfere with someone’s’ religion. However, in my mind and heart, the world would be better without (don’t hate me for saying that…haha)!

And, I know, I know, if we didn't have religion, we'll find something else to kill each other over......I guess we will never find out!!!


I understand the first reason, but the second doesn't make sense. There are two worldviews considered in this post: the religion worldview and tne NOT religion worldview.

Both views have a history of killing/murder, etc.

So to say you're one or the other because the other view has killing in it is kindof arbitrary.

Also, if one view says "murder is wrong, don't do it" and the other view on murder is dependant on a majority vote, then to say living without the view that says "do not murder" is somehow better seems a bit biased - not in a bad way - just biased.

So I'm not saying give up your atheism because one has a fixed standard and the other doesn't, but simply to point out that using "killing in that worldview" is a reason to not use that particular worldview is arbitrary.

Main reason being, in the arbitrary world-view, in principle it can be considered consistent to condone murder whereas in the fixed world-view, it is explicitly inconsistent to condone it.

debates are so fun
^.^

#76039 by CraigMaxim
Thu Jul 23, 2009 5:42 pm
ColorsFade,

I don't hate Muslims. I don't hate anyone. You haven't read all the thread. I know I type alot, but please, read it all, before assigning motives to me I have disavowed already previously.

To recap:

God promised Abraham that he would have children who would grow into an inumerable number, as the sands on the beaches or the stars in heaven, even though he and his wife were of old age. Time goes by, and Abraham's wife is not pregnant. Finally she tires of waiting, and suggests that Abraham go and lay with her handmaid Hagar to get her pregnant and bear children for them. This was the practice back then, that a servant could bear children for her mistress. Abraham, rather than TRUSTING in God, follows his wife's advice and sleeps with Hagar. A son, Ishmael is born, Abraham's first born. He is a son. Normally he would have been the heir, given a blessing by his father before he died, and received his father's inheritance.

But lo and behold, God fulfills His promise to Abraham after all, and Sarah bears her own child to Abraham, named Isaac (Oh, I think I said Jacob before, my bad) in any event, being a woman and mother now, Sarah of course wants Isaac to be the only son and NOT Ishmael, because Isaac is from her womb, and also, though the Bible doesn't say this, of course, she wanted HER SON to be the one to inherit everything. She convinces Abraham to cast out Hagar and Ishmael.

In these times, a woman alone with a son was a virtual death sentence.

This was a horrible thing for Abraham to do, and as an aside, God has told me that Abraham loved Ishmael, and it grieved him to do this, that he did not want to send Ishmael away, but in deference to his wife, he agreed to this.

After Ishmael and his mother are cast out, God tells her not to worry, that her son would become a great people, blessed by God.

Ishmael's descendents are semitic peoples who became Muslims, they honestly and rightly, trace their lineage back to Abraham.

Rather than hate Muslims, I love them, as God does, and understand where their anger comes from. They are descended from a slave woman who was then rejected and cast out. In the terminology of the past, they are "bastard" offspring, without a legitimate (legal) father. Disowned.

That anger has existed and festered now, for THOUSANDS of years. This is not hard to understand if you know of a famous situation called "The Hatfields and the McCoys" which is a family against family feud that lasted for generations. When the Soviet Union disbanded, the first thing many of the people did in the satellite countries, was go back to ancient in-fighting, culture clashes that existed for hundreds of years, and though they were prevented from doing this for many decades under Soviet rule, they didn;t forget their anger, and went right back to it. Some anger, is passed from generation to generation and is not easily muted, even over decades, even over hundreds of years, even over thousand of years.

In any event...

God has shown me alot of things, especially recently about this whole situation. He has told me that the Muslims are partially right. IT WAS Ishmael who was offered for sacrifice. He was the eldest son, and so this makes sense. But the Muslim argument is that he was the ONLY son still, when this happened, because there was no mention of another child being around. God has told me that this is because Isaac was still a baby. And that Abraham did receive a revealtion from God that Ishmael was to be a sacrifice. But God did not mean a PHYSICAL sacrifice, but a spiritual one. This is because God's plan was to bless Sarah and Abraham with a child, of THEIR LINEAGE, a child phsyically related to them both. God had to fulfill his promise comepletely, not merely to bless Sarah with a child, but that THIS CHILD was the child of promise, he would receive the blessing, and begin the lineage God wanted. This would NEVER set well with Hagar and Ishmael, and in God's wisdom, he intended for them to be separated from this family.

You see, Abraham should NEVER had laid with Hagar in the first place. He was following his wife's instructions and not God's. So it was not Hagar's fault that she was impregnated and it wasn't Ishmael's fault he would be condemned to being a bastard son, cast out and disowned, but God, in his great love, also promises Hagar that her son Ishmael would ALSO become a great people. God rewarded Hagar and Ishmael, NOT cursed them.

God told me that Abraham, took this to mean a PHYSICAL sacrifice and though he was grieved to sacrifice Ishmael, he was willing to do it because he WRONGLY assumed this was God's answer to Abraham's mistake of having a child with Hagar.

However, the angel appears to Abraham before he does the deed, and stops him, claiming that it is unecessary because now God sees he has faith, and so Abraham looks up and sees the ram in the thicket, and understands that God has provided an alternative, an animal sacrifice.

God did provide the ram through the angel, but not for the reason the Bible gives. God did not want Ishmael to be executed for Abraham's sins. Jewish scribes reworked this story, for reasons I am not going to get into right now.

But the fact remains that I love Muslims, and have had quite a few Muslim friends in my lifetime. Some of them so close, that they call me a brother and would open their homes to me at any time if I ever needed.

God has also told me, that in some respects Muslims are closer to God's heart than Jews are, because they have understood what it is like to be considered bastard children and to be rejected without cause. Jesus also grew up being believed to be a bastard, because he had no earhtly father, and Joseph was quite clear that he was NOT the father of Jesus. What else could the town's people assume? That Mary had sex with another man, but that out of compassion, her husband did not have her stoned to death. Jesus grew up more lonely than anyone here could ever imagine, with questions and rumors circulating about him his whole life. Who is his father? Why did Joseph accept this?

And of course, when Jesus was eventually rejected by his own people, by his own family and even by his friends, the disciples, who all ran away when Jesus was taken prisoner, well, no one knows lonliness and rejection more than he does.

So God has shared with me that Muslims are very close to his heart. But just as Abraham wrongly assumed that maybe God was fulfilling his promise through Hagar, so to, do Muslims wrongly assume, that they are the instruments of justice against a people who they believe misrepresent God and change history, and STOLE the blessing from Ishmael.

I don't hate Muslims.

I don't fear Muslims.

I am concerned however, about the nuclear weapons, that even this moment, they are furiously seeking to acquire and set off in this country.

#76040 by ColorsFade
Thu Jul 23, 2009 5:47 pm
philbymon wrote:
You seem to be taking a purely christian view of all of this, even as you claim to have such a worldly view, & I find that to be very revealing. It puts you in the category of "ppl I don't agree with." Never will, either. It also puts you in the category of those with that "us vs. them" mentality, that I find so childish & unfair to others. It erases all your claims of "logic," as well. Sorry, but that's how I see it.


Yep. Agree.

#76041 by ColorsFade
Thu Jul 23, 2009 5:49 pm
CraigMaxim wrote:ColorsFade,

I don't hate Muslims. I don't hate anyone. You haven't read all the thread. I know I type alot, but please, read it all, before assigning motives to me I have disavowed already previously.

To recap:

God promised...


See, right there I stop reading.

I'm not interested in what you believe about some fictitious God or book based on said fictitious God.

I'm interested in what you believe and how you feel about your fellow human beings.


When you figure that out - we can have a meaningful conversation.

#76045 by Chippy
Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:06 pm
Might make this my last post on here because I see things getting out of hand all over the place of late. Moderation and cordiality have left a stage bare and no one sings to please.

What I am about to say will probably annoy some people, (sure it will too).
I've been here for some time and have made a lot of friends but the most irksome thing I've found is actually being told what my country is like. Yeah that happens, happened and will happen again.

I've traveled a lot too and have met people in poor villages and whilst I know that America is a vast and wonderful land I also know its still America. I've met a few people who have regularly traveled but not that many really. Those that have, have a different outlook on things because they learned something while traveling. Today Chippy feels sad because today the one Forum that I visit on a more than regular basis is falling apart because of the very things that annoys them and they ARE NOT MUSIC RELATED!!

I suggest learning a new European language if you don't want to go outside US borders. This would help greatly and annoy the heck out of your friends.

Having covered stuff in various fields through my time I can only say that someone stating something without knowing anything about it from first hand knowledge will eventually be caught out. The trouble with that is that the TROUBLE caused in the meantime could be devastating.

1. Check your sources.
2. Quote your sources.
3. Mind that someone may actually know more than you.

I've fallen fowl in earlier years for not learning about things before I opened my big Gob.

Great Forum once. Will it be again?

Prevost82 wrote:Craig ... have you ever been to a Muslim country? Have you ever traveled outside the US? I think if you had your views would be different.

#76047 by Sir Jamsalot
Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:22 pm
Chippy, just ignore this thread if you don't like how it's turning. I think people just want to vent - and this thread is labeled so you can see that it's not about music ^.^

Peace.


Chippy wrote:Might make this my last post on here because I see things getting out of hand all over the place of late. Moderation and cordiality have left a stage bare and no one sings to please.

What I am about to say will probably annoy some people, (sure it will too).
I've been here for some time and have made a lot of friends but the most irksome thing I've found is actually being told what my country is like. Yeah that happens, happened and will happen again.

I've traveled a lot too and have met people in poor villages and whilst I know that America is a vast and wonderful land I also know its still America. I've met a few people who have regularly traveled but not that many really. Those that have, have a different outlook on things because they learned something while traveling. Today Chippy feels sad because today the one Forum that I visit on a more than regular basis is falling apart because of the very things that annoys them and they ARE NOT MUSIC RELATED!!

I suggest learning a new European language if you don't want to go outside US borders. This would help greatly and annoy the heck out of your friends.

Having covered stuff in various fields through my time I can only say that someone stating something without knowing anything about it from first hand knowledge will eventually be caught out. The trouble with that is that the TROUBLE caused in the meantime could be devastating.

1. Check your sources.
2. Quote your sources.
3. Mind that someone may actually know more than you.

I've fallen fowl in earlier years for not learning about things before I opened my big Gob.

Great Forum once. Will it be again?

Prevost82 wrote:Craig ... have you ever been to a Muslim country? Have you ever traveled outside the US? I think if you had your views would be different.

#76048 by CraigMaxim
Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:32 pm
God is not Christian.

God is God.

No religion owns God.

No religion fully represents God.

All the world's major religions are inspired by God, which is why they find similar truths. These truths are what is important. And they are inspired by God.

Religion can be as destructive as it is constructive.

But God has given religious principles to peoples the world over, to assist them in coming into relationship with Him and maintaing that relationship. Children need techniques given to them to practice things and become better at them, until these things are no longer needed and the child acts out of habit, without the need for the crutch. Think of religion as training wheels on bikes, or a child using his finger at first, to go line by line in a book. They may need these things to assist them in their focus, until they grow past it.

Religion is no different.

Our relationship with God is childish and primitive, until it grows and develops and we become one with his Heart. This is on an individual level. But God has also been moving the WORLD to a more mature relationship with Him and understanding of Him. Revelations of the past were primitive, such as belief in multiple gods and the practice of human sacrifice. As faith in God grows so too does the ability to receive clearer revelation, and the religions that develop around these revelations reflect these things. So you have later, Judaism come forward and present God as "One God" alone. Monotheism. This was a major change in how the world understood God. Yet Jews also have scripture that say you should chop off a thief's hands, or stone a child to death who is disrespectful, or a woman who commits adultery. Then later you have Christianity, an off-shoot of Judaism, correcting some of these mistakes... yes God is one, but Jesus was the messiah, and he taught to turn the other cheek, that is someone steals your coat give him your shirt also. Or like when the adulterous woman was brought to Jesus, he told the mod, he who is without sin cast the first stone. No one would, and she went away free, in apparent violation of Jewish law.

And now, in our time, this is progressing even further, where religious rites will be seen as obsolete, and people will beguided by conscience and not rules on paper or stone.

And as for the atheists here.

I have learned that there are not many, if any, real atheists.

God is love. I believe this quite literally. That God is the force and power of love itself. And to be a true atheist, you would have to not believe in love. I don't find many people who believe that.

When we share "love" with one another, we are literally sharing the energy of God Himself with one another.

But the Bible has many important truths in it, not the least of which are prohpecies of the last days. These aren't mythology. Similar prophecies appear in Mayan prophecies and Nostradamus and other religions, so many in fact, it is hard to remember them all. And they often revolve around the year 2012, which not coincidentally, there will be unusual astronomical events that same year.

Recently, God told me that the world situation would decline over the next three years, with each successive year being worse than the one before it, for 3 years time. Interestingly, this takes us to 2012, which I didn't concern myself with that much, until God told me about the next 3 years.

I've never shared these things here before, but the things God told me are so serious, that I felt obliged to share it, even though I realize I will appear whacky. I can't apologize though, for what I know, when God Himself tells me.

I tell you, because when these things occur, you will remember what I have said, and I hope your hearts turn to God in that day, more than they ever have.

We are going to be living through some times, you will never EVER want to see again.

Just let me finish with this:

Why are these things going to happen?

Because the world has advanced very far. Population is growing to numbers that will become unsustainable eventually, because science continues to improve our life expectancy decade after decade as knowledge inreases. We have the technological understanding to destroy our species, many times over as well as all life on the planet.

God wants mankind to understand that we are a FAMILY. That we are a species, and we ourselves will become extinct, if we do not learn to cooperate and work together and love one another, for the betterment of our species, and not merely the betterment of our race, or our religion or our own country or political structure.

Our destiny is the cosmos

God created the cosmos as vast as it is, because he intends for us to settle it, to explore and settle other worlds. Population alone will demand this before long. However, God tells me, He cannot allow us this kind of technology, because he will not allow us to inhabit the cosmos, until we resolve ancient issue which are threatening to destroy us. God did not create the cosmos to be "interesting" to us, and merely look at through "telescopes". He created an infinite world, for the infinite growth and expansion of his children. But until LOVE rules us, as people, as nations, as a species, then these things will not be. The problem is, that WE MUST begin to prepare for such a destiny soon, and this necessitates everything coming to a head NOW!

It has to happen soon, so it can be resolved. And then we can have the future he intended for us all along. But these things are happening, and WILL HAPPEN more intensively over the next 3 years, because people cling to selfishness and religious dogma and all the other things that separate us so viciously, it requires something shocking, to bring us out of ourselves and find our better natures.

This happened to a small degree with 9/11

Remember how close Americans felt? Blacks and whites, Republicans and Democrats. When a national tragedy happens, it brings a nation together. It didn't last long, although some of it did. But when there is a world problem, there will be a wordwide tragedy to wake us all up.

It's harsh, but we create it for ourselves. We are slow to learn the lessons of the past. Slow to love. Slow to change our hearts. These things are necessary, because we are still, too stubborn to do them for ourselves in a reasonable time.

Population growth, nuclear weapons, the destruction of nature and the climate.... There is no more time, for Him to wait for us.

The time is HERE!

The time is NOW!

#76050 by Dave Couture
Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:47 pm
Can someone change the name of this thread already...lol. It should be renamed to The Miscellaneous thread!

We have covered Health Care, History, Best Tourists, George Bush, I.Q. tests, Terrorists and now, religion.... :lol:

#76051 by Chippy
Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:49 pm
Emhotep!

Dave Couture wrote:Can someone change the name of this thread already...lol. It should be renamed to The Miscellaneous thread!
We have covered Health Care, History, Best Tourists, George Bush, I.Q. tests, Terrorists and now, religion.... :lol:

#76052 by Dave Couture
Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:00 pm
Do you mean Imhotep? If not, I don't get it...hell, I don't get it either ways... :lol:

#76054 by ColorsFade
Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:26 pm
CraigMaxim wrote:And as for the atheists here.

I have learned that there are not many, if any, real atheists.


There you go - don't address someone else viewpoint; just tell 'em they're not "real" and dismiss them. Good debate tactic!

Hey Craig - how's this: "I have learned that there are not many, if any, real Christians!"

(Zing!)



CraigMaxim wrote:God is love. I believe this quite literally. That God is the force and power of love itself. And to be a true atheist, you would have to not believe in love. I don't find many people who believe that.


Haha! Love it! So we have to define our Atheism by YOUR definition! Fabulous!


How's this: "God is dog poop. I believe this quite literally. That God is the force and power of dog poop itself. And to be a true Christian, you would have to not believe in dog poop. I don't find many people who believe that."

(Zing!)


Anyway... you should get the point by now. Pretty easy to disrespect someone's beliefs, isn't it? Doesn't feel very good, does it?


At any rate, you crack me up Craig. Literally. I'm at the point where the only response I can muster now is laughter. You can't be taken seriously at all. You don't show the slightest ounce of respect to anyone's beliefs but your own. When someone's beliefs counteract your own, you revert to calling them "not real" and then redefining their beliefs so its easier for you to attack them.

Why does someone else' belief system threaten you so much that you can't show any respect at all, but you just work to tear them down? Why? What's so difficult about just addressing someone's Atheist beliefs using the normal, accepted definitions?


Here's a tip you might want to become aware of for further conversations: Atheism is a disbelief in God. Not Love. Atheists do not believe those two are the same thing. You might want to consider that - and not your own personal definition of Atheism - when having a discussion about Atheism with an Atheist.

You might want to try and look at things through the eyes of those you oppose before spending your energy to redefine their beliefs and rip them down.

#76056 by Dave Couture
Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:32 pm
CraigMaxim wrote:And as for the atheists here.

I have learned that there are not many, if any, real atheists.


You may want to check your sources. As of 2005, we are 1.1 Billions Atheists in the world. Making us the third largest group, after Christianity (first) and Islam (second).
Last edited by Dave Couture on Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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