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#73152 by Sir Jamsalot
Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:32 pm
Looking to you veterans for some help on this. I've been recording directly from my pre-amp's headphone-out jack and I just don't like any tone I'm getting. Part of that could be due to the amp - I switch between a roland cube and my legend-21 gsp to try to get something with real crunch, but I just can't get the sound I'm looking for. It sounds decent coming out of the speakers, and when I listen via headphones I can live with the sound but when playing back, the sound just isn't punchy enough for my taste.

I'm wondering your thoughts on whether mic'ing your speakers is the best method for recording these days or not. I know it's all going to be preference in the end, but what is the norm? I just think I'm going down the wrong path the way I'm doing it now.

Much appreciate your experience in this field.

Chris

#73158 by jsantos
Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:40 pm
Hi Chris, The best way to record guitar is micing up your amp. The recording situations are different when you are going straight into the recording console or board.

The reason being is that your amp and speaker emulate most of your tone and trying to get it from an effects module/amp simulator/equalizer will be very hard and if not, impossible.

The studio standards are Shure SM57 for micing up your amp cab, connected to a 24-bit/48kHz sound USB interface.

I hope that helps.

#73159 by ratsass
Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:41 pm
Mic'ing is definitely going to give you what you're hearing from the amp and so, would be much better than line out. Play around with mic placement while listening through headphones and you'll find the sweet spot for the mic. After the recording, you might try a compressor on just the guitar channel and try to squeeze the sound into a tight ball of crunch. Lots of different routes to go, but these will get some good results.

#73160 by ratsass
Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:44 pm
You may also try going from your Roland's line/headphone out into the Legend to get the Roland crunch and the Legends larger speaker sound.

#73162 by Sir Jamsalot
Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:49 pm
ratsass wrote:You may also try going from your Roland's line/headphone out into the Legend to get the Roland crunch and the Legends larger speaker sound.


Wow, I hadn't even thought of that. I'll give that a rip. Thanks!

#73163 by Sir Jamsalot
Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:50 pm
jsantos wrote:Hi Chris, The best way to record guitar is micing up your amp. The recording situations are different when you are going straight into the recording console or board.

The reason being is that your amp and speaker emulate most of your tone and trying to get it from an effects module/amp simulator/equalizer will be very hard and if not, impossible.

The studio standards are Shure SM57 for micing up your amp cab, connected to a 24-bit/48kHz sound USB interface.

I hope that helps.


Immensely. I'll see if I can find a mic on e-bay or craigs list.

#73165 by Sir Jamsalot
Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:54 pm
jsantos wrote:Hi Chris, The best way to record guitar is micing up your amp. The recording situations are different when you are going straight into the recording console or board.

The reason being is that your amp and speaker emulate most of your tone and trying to get it from an effects module/amp simulator/equalizer will be very hard and if not, impossible.

The studio standards are Shure SM57 for micing up your amp cab, connected to a 24-bit/48kHz sound USB interface.

I hope that helps.


Ok, so this is my current situation that I can't really change without a complete system overhaul (new sound card). I have a mackie 4 channel soundboard with stereo (rca plug master out). I'm currently running my pre-amp's out into the first 1/4 in of the soundboard, and then using the master-out directly to the sound card. If I go with a mic-set up, would I be using the mic directly in to the mackie sound board instead of the USB interface? Does that sound plausible?

thanks.

#73166 by ratsass
Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:01 pm
Chris4Blues wrote:I have a mackie 4 channel soundboard with stereo (rca plug master out). I'm currently running my pre-amp's out into the first 1/4 in of the soundboard, and then using the master-out directly to the sound card. If I go with a mic-set up, would I be using the mic directly in to the mackie sound board instead of the USB interface? Does that sound plausible?

thanks.


Sounds like you need to just get the SM57 right now and go through the Mackie. If you get a USB mic, you'll only be using it on your computer, whereas the 57 could also be used for live apps too. The Mackie pre amps will be plenty good for recording. If you went the USB route it would depend on what interface you use as far as what the pre amp would be like.

#73168 by jsantos
Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:09 pm
ratsass wrote:Sounds like you need to just get the SM57 right now and go through the Mackie. If you get a USB mic, you'll only be using it on your computer, whereas the 57 could also be used for live apps too. The Mackie pre amps will be plenty good for recording. If you went the USB route it would depend on what interface you use as far as what the pre amp would be like.


^^^ agreed with Ratsass.


Yeah chris, the bottom line is that you just need to mic your amp and not go through direct into your mixing console. You can even use more than one mic if you have extra channels on your mixing board so you can get a true "room" sound.

#73169 by ColorsFade
Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:16 pm
One thing to consider: While the SM57 is the standard, it is typically not used by itself. In has a tendency to not pickup lower frequencies as well because the wavelengths are longer. They develop better as they get farther from the amp.

What I've done in the past is mike the cab with an SM57 close up, usually at an angle to the cone (Steve Stephens centers his on the cone, but he's the only one I know who does this), and then also mike it with a condenser mike, about 6ft back from the amp and higher in the air. You will catch the longer wavelength bass notes better with this setup, and get a much fuller, richer sound.

Most pros I've seen use multiple mikes on their cabs when they record so they capture as much of the real sound as possible.

#73182 by jsantos
Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:55 pm
ColorsFade wrote:One thing to consider: While the SM57 is the standard, it is typically not used by itself. In has a tendency to not pickup lower frequencies as well because the wavelengths are longer. They develop better as they get farther from the amp.



Part of your state,ent is untrue ColorsFade. The Sm57 is a unidirectional mic designed to isolate the main sound source while minimizing background noise. The farther you position the Sm57.... the more back ground noise you can pick up. The Sm57 captures the true sound emulated through your amplifier or instrument, this is why sound engineers couple it with a "dynamic" mic to capture the room sound (usually on a separate track).




Image

#73212 by ColorsFade
Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:28 pm
jsantos wrote:
Part of your state,ent is untrue ColorsFade.


Sigh.,.. Nothing I wrote was untrue. I don't think you understood what I was trying to get at...

http://books.google.com/books?id=ScUPniUxwL0C&pg=PA104&lpg=PA104&dq=wavelengths+sound+recording+distance&source=bl&ots=cebl_GQe43&sig=aza7JpmPbb41_kftaEjnBZnrDtM&hl=en&ei=7H1KSofaL4HdlAeMnfG0DQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2


jsantos wrote:The Sm57 is a unidirectional mic designed to isolate the main sound source while minimizing background noise.


And that wasn't my point. Minimizing extraneous noise is *one* objective of every recording engineer. That's common knowledge and practice. That's not what's interesting, however.

Getting an *accurate* representation of your amp is about understanding wavelengths and how to capture them. It's not about "room" sound. It's about getting the actual, true, and full range of the amp's sound, which is scattered over a bunch of frequencies. You can't capture it all with a single dynamic mike pushed up against the grill. You can't capture all of the waves in their fullness.

This is what I was getting at. It wasn't about eliminating noise; that's a given. It is about *accurately* capturing the amp. This is what has pained guitar players for decades...

You go ahead and record your amp with an SM57 right up against your cab, offset from the cone. Does it sound exactly like your amp when you are standing next to it? Not on your life. Your ears are picking up frequencies that the mike can't because of it's position to the amp.


jsantos wrote:The farther you position the Sm57.... the more back ground noise you can pick up.


Anyone who has ever recorded with an SM57 knows that you typically use it right up against the mesh of the cab for the reason you mentioned. So what do you get when you do that? You get one piece of the audio puzzle. If all you do is use an SM57 right up against the cab, you are missing out on audio frequencies that it cannot pickup because of its position; wavelengths that are longer in length and require more time from peak to peak cannot get picked up accurately.


jsantos wrote:The Sm57 captures the true sound emulated through your amplifier or instrument


Haha! No it doesn't!

I wish it did; it would make everyone's job a lot easier if we could just slap one SM57 against a cab and get the "true" sound of the amp. Doesn't work that way. You've either never done any recording with an SM57, or you have really inarticulate ears.

jsantos wrote:this is why sound engineers couple it with a "dynamic" mic to capture the room sound (usually on a separate track).


An SM57 *is* a dynamic mike...

Engineers typically couple it with a condenser mike, further away from the mesh (ideally about 4-5ft. in the air, some 2-6 feet away from the amp, but you gotta have a good, quite room to do this), although I've seen them used close up as well.

They don't do this to capture the "room" sound; who gives a f*ck what the room sounds like; it shouldn't *sound* like anything; it's a ROOM!. It should have as little effect on your sound as possible. Otherwise it's a pretty crappy room.

Incidentally, that picture you put up: the mike furthest away looks like an AKG 414, and that's a condenser mike.



Listen; not trying to be a d*ck here, but I've done this before. Miking an amp and getting the most accurate sound possible isn't as simple as slapping an SM57 against it. And if you give people the impression that it is that simple, they're going to be disappointed the moment they hear what you've recorded.

I know I was really disappointed the first time I recorded my Mesa with an SM57 by itself. It sounded thin and pale compared to the real deal. It was only later we learned about using condenser mikes in combo with the SM57 and additional dynamic mikes with different frequency responses to capture the full range of the amp.

#73215 by Sir Jamsalot
Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:35 pm
didn't mean to make a fuss about this.

Both of your input (and pictures, thanks!) is very eye opening. I'll try to model my little hole in the wall studio after your advice.

oh btw, in the picture of the mic'd amp - why are both mics on either side of one speaker instead of one on each?

Thanks everyone.
Chris

#73217 by gbheil
Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:39 pm
Holy crap Batman, now I am looking at four channels on my PA taken up by just my guitar. :shock:
Just kidding guys, this is all very interesting. Keep it up, just dont let it get to be another pissing match. :wink:

#73218 by philbymon
Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:41 pm
All I can say on this subject is that most direct outs on amps suck. Mic 'em! Try various methods until you get what you want.

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