United States

Did someone get the idea that they want to dissolve the current federal government and just leave it at that?
Of course those position's would have to be filled with new people so I don't understand you argument CF?

The spread of information is our biggest weapon and their biggest fear. As long as we argue over petty issues and diversions like the 165 mill in bonuses that they themselves put into the package (now why would they do that...hmmm) instead of spreading the knowledge that they have sent 11 trillion dollars to international bankers, then they can continue on bleeding us for the means to their ends.


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"putting your head in a hole leaves your ass in the air"

After reading everyone's thoughts on this thread, I just got this in an e-mail from a friend. Kinda says it all.


545 PEOPLE
By Charlie Reese


Politicians are the only people in the world who create problems and then campaign against them.
Have you ever wondered, if both the Democrats and the Republicans are against deficits, WHY do we have deficits?
Have you ever wondered, if all the politicians are against inflation and high taxes, WHY do we have inflation and high taxes?

You and I don't propose a federal budget. The President does.
You and I don't have the Constitutional authority to vote on appropriations. The House of Representatives does.
You and I don't write the tax code, Congress does.
You and I don't set fiscal policy, Congress does.
You and I don't control monetary policy, the Federal Reserve Bank does.

One hundred Senators, 435 Congressmen, one President, and nine Supreme Court justices , 545 human beings out of the 300 million are directly, legally, morally, and individually responsible for the domestic problems that plague this country.

I excluded the members of the Federal Reserve Board because that problem was created by the Congress. In 1913, Congress delegated its Constitutional duty to provide a sound currency to a federally chartered, but private, central bank.

I excluded all the special interests and lobbyists for a sound reason. They have no legal authority. They have no ability to coerce a senator, a congressman, or a president to do one cotton-picking thing. I don't care if they offer a politician $1 million dollars in cash. The politician has the power to accept or reject it. No matter what the lobbyist promises, it is the legislator's responsibility to determine how he votes.

Those 545 human beings spend much of their energy convincing you that what they did is not their fault. They cooperate in this common con regardless of party.
What separates a politician from a normal human being is an excessive amount of gall. No normal human being would have the gall of a Speaker, who stood up and criticized the President for creating deficits... The president can only propose a budget. He cannot force the Congress to accept it.

The Constitution, which is the supreme law of the land, gives sole responsibility to the House of Representatives for originating and approving appropriations and taxes.

Who is the speaker of the House? Nancy Pelosi. She is the leader of the majority party. She and fellow House members, not the President, can approve any budget they want. If the president vetoes it, they can pass it over his veto if they agree to.

It seems inconceivable to me that a nation of 300 million can not replace 545 people who stand convicted -- by present facts -- of incompetence and irresponsibility. I can't think of a single domestic problem that is not traceable directly to those 545 people. When you fully grasp the plain truth that 545 people exercise the power of the federal government, then it must follow that what exists is what they want to exist.

If the tax code is unfair, it's because they want it unfair.
If the budget is in the red, it's because they want it in the red .
If the Army & Marines are in IRAQ , it's because they want them in IRAQ .
If they do not receive social security but are on an elite retirement plan not available to the people, it's because they want it that way.

There are no insoluble government problems.
Do not let these 545 people shift the blame to bureaucrats, whom they hire and whose jobs they can abolish; to lobbyists, whose gifts and advice they can reject; to regulators, to whom they give the power to regulate and from whom they can take this power. Above all, do not let them con you into the belief that there exists disembodied mystical forces like "the economy," "inflation," or "politics" that prevent them from doing what they take an oath to do.

Those 545 people, and they alone, are responsible.
They, and they alone, have the power.
They, and they alone, should be held accountable by the people who are their bosses.

Provided the voters have the gumption to manage their own employees.
We should vote all of them out of office and clean up their mess!

Charlie Reese is a former columnist of the Orlando Sentinel Newspaper.

I like you too, CF, & I AM trying to "see the big picture" in my (perhaps naive) way.

My hands aren't working against me. If they were, I'd have to go to one of those experts to make sure they quit it. If the experts I used didn't solve the problem, I'd fire them & get new ones until the problem was solved. I wouldn't keep throwing good money after bad to ppl that aren't working in my best interest, but that's what we as a ppl have been doing for many years.

If, by taxing the co's that out-source, it forces them to move out of the USA, that's really fine with me. I'll just tax their imports until they can't make a profit off of us by seeking too high profits. The situation remains that there will be a need for those services & products, & the gap left by their departure will be filled by AMERICAN firms that, although they may make a slightly less profit by using OUR native labor, they will still profit from their work, & keep Americans working.

Unfortunately, the ppl that are hiring illegals ARE breaking the laws. The farmers are losing money, mostly because of profiteering & unethical business procedures by the larger corporations that put them in the lowest sector of profits in this country. That is a damned shame. Our gov't pays farmers to not grow certain foods. They could just as easily help them with their labor problems - perhaps forced-labor from our over-burdened prisons? Hey, howabout making those thieves from Enron pick some frikken fruit, huh?

I never said we should erase or dissolve the gov't, but it's been working against the interests of the working man (or the non-working one who WANTS to work) for far too long. Good luck getting your money back with the way things are run, now, when corporate CEO's run off with your retirement, or misuse it & lose it while lining their pockets with ill-gotten proceeds. When they DO get put in jail, it's a country-club setting designed for those who are used to a higher standard of living than those they've fleeced, which we must also pay for. That's just so much BS it makes me wanna kill!

Yeah, there are lots of things that put us where we are now, & most of it has been plain old mismanagement & a lack of common sense, not to mention the outlandish amount of CORRUPTION that's been going on.

Keep it simple. Make things work by utilizing American labor, returning pride to ppl by allowing them to contribute, & making it dangerous to use & abuse & fleece ppl to everyone's disadvantage.

After reading everyone's thoughts on this thread, I just got this in an e-mail from a friend. Kinda says it all.


545 PEOPLE
By Charlie Reese


Politicians are the only people in the world who create problems and then campaign against them.
Have you ever wondered, if both the Democrats and the Republicans are against deficits, WHY do we have deficits?
Have you ever wondered, if all the politicians are against inflation and high taxes, WHY do we have inflation and high taxes?

You and I don't propose a federal budget. The President does.
You and I don't have the Constitutional authority to vote on appropriations. The House of Representatives does.
You and I don't write the tax code, Congress does.
You and I don't set fiscal policy, Congress does.
You and I don't control monetary policy, the Federal Reserve Bank does.

One hundred Senators, 435 Congressmen, one President, and nine Supreme Court justices , 545 human beings out of the 300 million are directly, legally, morally, and individually responsible for the domestic problems that plague this country.

I excluded the members of the Federal Reserve Board because that problem was created by the Congress. In 1913, Congress delegated its Constitutional duty to provide a sound currency to a federally chartered, but private, central bank.

I excluded all the special interests and lobbyists for a sound reason. They have no legal authority. They have no ability to coerce a senator, a congressman, or a president to do one cotton-picking thing. I don't care if they offer a politician $1 million dollars in cash. The politician has the power to accept or reject it. No matter what the lobbyist promises, it is the legislator's responsibility to determine how he votes.

Those 545 human beings spend much of their energy convincing you that what they did is not their fault. They cooperate in this common con regardless of party.
What separates a politician from a normal human being is an excessive amount of gall. No normal human being would have the gall of a Speaker, who stood up and criticized the President for creating deficits... The president can only propose a budget. He cannot force the Congress to accept it.

The Constitution, which is the supreme law of the land, gives sole responsibility to the House of Representatives for originating and approving appropriations and taxes.

Who is the speaker of the House? Nancy Pelosi. She is the leader of the majority party. She and fellow House members, not the President, can approve any budget they want. If the president vetoes it, they can pass it over his veto if they agree to.

It seems inconceivable to me that a nation of 300 million can not replace 545 people who stand convicted -- by present facts -- of incompetence and irresponsibility. I can't think of a single domestic problem that is not traceable directly to those 545 people. When you fully grasp the plain truth that 545 people exercise the power of the federal government, then it must follow that what exists is what they want to exist.

If the tax code is unfair, it's because they want it unfair.
If the budget is in the red, it's because they want it in the red .
If the Army & Marines are in IRAQ , it's because they want them in IRAQ .
If they do not receive social security but are on an elite retirement plan not available to the people, it's because they want it that way.

There are no insoluble government problems.
Do not let these 545 people shift the blame to bureaucrats, whom they hire and whose jobs they can abolish; to lobbyists, whose gifts and advice they can reject; to regulators, to whom they give the power to regulate and from whom they can take this power. Above all, do not let them con you into the belief that there exists disembodied mystical forces like "the economy," "inflation," or "politics" that prevent them from doing what they take an oath to do.

Those 545 people, and they alone, are responsible.
They, and they alone, have the power.
They, and they alone, should be held accountable by the people who are their bosses.

Provided the voters have the gumption to manage their own employees.
We should vote all of them out of office and clean up their mess!

Charlie Reese is a former columnist of the Orlando Sentinel Newspaper.

lol I just posted this on a publick forum (Topix)
It's plain and simple rational thought. (like I said, they're aren't stupid at all. they know exactly what they are doing)

I asked someone here if they thought there would ever be another revolution? The answer was categorically no. When you look at the world around us right now it is all you see. Some radical wanting someone out and willing to do anything at all to get this aim.

I don't think this is about regimes at all anymore. I fear that as a race we have expanded so far and in such a short time that there is no more space, no more freedom.

I saw a program a few years ago given by a professor in science who was talking about how the human race has a cunning way of cutting back on its population whether it be a natural catastrophe or something man made?

In any case his figures were about on the mark and we are way overdue.
Perhaps there is some pit in all of us that knows when there is a time? Certainly you only have to look at news broadcasts worldwide to understand that no everyday human being is totally happy right this minute for some reason or another.

We should have Landed on Mars now and be exploring and working out how to stop rogue asteroids hitting us, working out how to dispel disease without a profit margin.

We simply did not do that, we are way behind with the many things that we as children were told might be our future.

Order is all that matters for safety of the family and futures. To know that there is something for you.

I dunno Chaps?

Just my two cents and to through the thread off kilter.
Thanks

wow.. Chippy and Ratsass - fantastic posts.

I often think about population, we're well over 6 billion world-wide now, and many scientists have pegged the max at 7. Within one or two generations, we will easily be there, and world-wide famine, disease, violence, lawlessness, and a host of other bad things will follow. Meanwhile, we have welfare families, religious families, and others having 10+ kids.

It all boils down to a simple fact that there is a finite amount of resources, and we're gobbling them up at alarming rates, and destroying the environment as we go, careless as to who it hurts down the road, and uncaring that our own offspring and future generations will undoubtedly suffer greatly for our lack of wisdom (or action).

Has anyone noticed the bottled water trend? It's hardly a trend, as much as a necessity in many areas. The tap water where I live is undrinkable. You can't even cook with it anymore! Many wells, lakes, rivers, and underground water supplies throughout the country (and world, for that matter) are completely toxic. Autism, CP, cancer, and hosts of other birth and genetic defects are rising at staggering rates, IMO because of the toxicity of our many pollutions.

The wealth that controls those "545 people" has no interest in anything but more wealth. I think only a handful of them really care and donate substantially and honestly to charity efforts. Most, if not 99.9% of them donate a minimum amount as a business decision, part tax write-offs and part public relations to ensure future monetary gains.

The war on drugs is a farce that criminalizes people who are otherwise law-abiding and contributing citizens. The child porn "scare" is nothing more than an online witch-hunt and usually prosecutes those who dare click on a link out of curiosity (thinking 'can it be real?') or even those doing research for a book or study. Most of the child porn sites online are owned and operated by the FBI. None of the "victims" even exist. It takes away from tracking down and prosecuting the actual abductors and molesters who are actually committing the real crimes, putting our kids at a greater risk, rather than making them safer.

The patriot act is unconstitutional, and outright defies 5 of the original rights outlined in the constitution and bill of rights. Dissenters can be labeled "enemy combatants", have their phones tapped, house raided, and the citizen can be "black bagged", arrested, hauled off, put into solitary confinement for life, with no access to a lawyer, family, magistrate, or anyone. Families have no right to know why their loved one disappeared. Half of the people on milk cartons could potentially be sitting in a dark prision in any one of 75 nations that we have "secret prisons" set up in, rotting to death.

Prohibition, allowing armies of guerrillas and mobsters to grow and terrorize at new and alarming rates...
Wars of aggression against sovereign nations...
Outright lies and fraud at the highest level of government go un-investigated and un-punished...
corporations running prisons...
Media influenced by government and corporations, full of lies, bias, and pushing fear on a daily basis...
The list goes on and on...

But on a positive note: I've already decided that every election going forward, no incumbent will ever get a vote from me again. We need to root them ALL out, starting at the local level. Politicians get nice paychecks and benefits, and WE send them a clear message: "Fuk up and you're gone", then maybe... just maybe, some of them might say no to the corporate bribes. Unfortunately, that kind of change never really happened without a revolution. Maybe we can show progress socially and make it a first time for real change, but I doubt it.

One small problem with that thinking. Especially at the local level. Many of the most entrenched and worst behaving incumbents go totally unchallenged in the race.

Yep. & that's why I run for governor as a write-in, & have done so since around '92, at the local level. I figger if I'm lucky, someone might wanna sponsor me & my strange ideas.

Philby for Governor
Sans for Lt. Governor
Crip for Sgt Of Arms

www.myspace.com/blunderingeye
www.myspace.com/445175001
http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/6039/

"putting your head in a hole means you left your ass is in the air"

Wow guy's, I feel better now

...WE send them a clear message: "Fuk up and you're gone", then maybe....

The message needs to be that, but what you just advocated was, "Doesn't matter if you screw up or not, we're voting you out every four years".

People who do a good job need to be rewarded. People who do a bad job need to be fired. Voting against a person just because they're an incumbent is dumb. What if they did a great job?

Part of the problem is that everyone's got a different definition of what a "good job" is. That's why Busy got 8 years, despite half the U.S. population thinking he did a poor job.

....while scumbags like Bernard Madoff is allowed to rip off 50 billion over a period of decades with impunity, this is just one example there are countless corporate misdeeds which effected the lives of thousands of Americans, Enron, World Com the Keating five provide more examples.

Madoff's going to end up in jail. Ken Lay killed himself. Jeffry Skilling is in prison...

These people do not "get away" with anything.

They are no different from any other criminal. They're collateral damage is just bigger.

You want preventative law enforcement. But you can't legislate morality. You can try, but it always fails.

It will always fail in this country, because America was founded on the concept of freedom. If you try and regulate people and legislate morality, you impose on their freedoms. American's try to balance these two ideals which are at opposite ends of the spectrum. But at their heart, Americans value freedom above all else. Which is why legislating morality will always fail.

If, by taxing the co's that out-source, it forces them to move out of the USA, that's really fine with me. I'll just tax their imports until they can't make a profit off of us by seeking too high profits. The situation remains that there will be a need for those services & products, & the gap left by their departure will be filled by AMERICAN firms that, although they may make a slightly less profit by using OUR native labor, they will still profit from their work, & keep Americans working.

This is an isolationist mentality that is no longer relevant in today's world.

We're becoming a global economy. What will logically follow next is a global government. The concept of "American labor" will no longer exist one day.

If we isolate ourselves, we'll find ourselves sitting on the sidelines while the rest of the world coalesces. We'll be an outsider to a force much greater than ourselves. And then we won't be in a position to dictate anything to anyone.

We have to be a player instead. A major participant. We have to have an influence in the outcome of those future events. We have to be a strong influence in whatever global economies and governments emerge. We can't do that if we cut ourselves off from the rest of the globe.

The internet has changed everything. Information is instantaneous now. News no longer moves at the speed of a horse, or the speed of a ship crossing the sea. A widget-maker in Bangladesh can see what fair market value is for his product in London with the click of a button. That's powerful.

Imagine a globe where there are no boundaries; where the marketplace truly is a "global" one, and where there are no countries or governments. Then there's no such thing as "cheap labor" and "American labor". There's just "labor". There's only competition. In such a marketplace you won't have to compete against outsourcing or cheap labor, because the market will simply dictate your worth:

http://www.inc.com/magazine/20090401/how-hard-could-it-be-employees-negotiate-pay-raises.html?partner=fogcreek

Maybe not but how many people suffered as a result of this?

These people do not "get away" with anything.

Maybe not but how many people suffered as a result of this?

Doesn't matter. People suffer because of murders, rapist, thieves, kidnappers, drunk drivers, you name it.

The numbers may be higher, but the quality of the damage is no different. Do you think parents who lost their teenage daughter to a drunk driver feel any different than a guy who lose is retirement in the Enron scandal?

Do we rethink our approach to crime because one sort produces more "numbers" than another?

The bottom line is that none of us are prescient. We can't know the future, we can't know what any single person or group of people will do with any certainty.

Do we live our lives assuming the worst in people, and thus restrict everything that anyone does out of fear, or do we live our lives assuming the best in people, and deal with the worst when they crop up?

I prefer the latter. I prefer to assume people are good.

No one knew what Enron was up to except the people on the inner circle. Arthur Anderson, one of the most respected accounting firms in the U.S., signed off on Enron's accounting practices!

There's no certainty. You have to figure out how you want to live your life and how you want to deal with bad apples. Just don't be surprised if everyone does not agree with how you want to do it...