General Music Chat

Here's my take on this:
In the main band I was in (the Gatorr Band- Nashville, TN 1970s-1980s)
Lead guitars = Jim and I = we both played rhythm and when one of us played a lead the other would play rhythm unless we were doing double leads. We divided the lead parts close to 50/50%.. depending of course on the sounds needed for the most accurate (for cover tunes) delivery of the song.

Drummer= yeh would count off with sticks most of the time and deliver the timing for the whole band.

Bass= would provide the low tones for the band and work closely with the drummer. Very important.

Singer= Would write the lyrics (for the originals) and sing, being almost a separate entity but still within the realm of the band/music. He was the show-man. The front-man. The persona of the band, the focal point for the audience.

The band leader= well, this is where it gets tricky. We had a manager, but that doesnt really count. One band I was in picked me for band leader because I did all the work in contacting all the musicians involved and got us all together in one room finally to form the band.
The Gatorr band, however was a different story. Jim and I had been playing (just the 2 of us at first) for a while for fun and gained popularity which attracted other musicians. Eventually we had a 5 pc band, playing gigs etc. After a few years, things changed. I dont like to lead but I also dont like to follow, Jim decided that he wanted to "call all the shots" then (I dont like to take orders in my off-work-time) so.. well I'll spare everybody from the grim details of the ending. Basically, I packed my sht and left. Well.. sorry to ramble on.. eh -heh..

Aiming guitar amps at the drummer, guitarist driving the sound, putting PA main speakers BEHIND your head while performing, maybe I'm doing everything wrong...

LOL! I was thinking the same thing, bob!

If you run your sound like most bands and you mike up all the drums and you turn a loud amp toward the drums at least some of the drum mikes are going to pick up the guitar amp and you are not really going to solve anything you can always gate the drum mikes but this also can cause other problems because you would have to gate the drum mikes pretty hard especially if your drummer uses over head condenser mikes that is why you see so many lower wattage combo amps in the music stores these days because with todays sound reinforcement technologies you dont need a 100 watt stack any more unless you are playing arena's to 50,000 people.
The hundred watt stacks are cool but they are heavy and to damn loud for most gigging situations this is what I call the 70's mentallity. 100 watt stacks were first created by Vox for the Beatles and the Who back in the 60's so they could be heard above their screaming fans Guitar Player Mag. just did an article on this a couple of months ago.
Another example of the 70's mentallity (for p.a.) is to put a massive stack of speakers facing straight out on each side of the stage and run 50,000 watts of power thru them this way you are deafening the people close to the speakers and it only sounds good out by the sound man. Now days
they use JBL Vertec Line Arrays next time you go to a real concert look up at their speaker systems they are in a verticle curved array the speakers pointed closest to the stage are almost straight down and recieve the least amount of power and as they start to point further out they curve up and they run more power with the ones pointed to the back of house receiving the most power. We use this same Idea when we run our sound. you get better sound dispersion and you don't have to cause deafness to your audience it is much more pleasent to them. We achieve this by using 4 seperate cabs for the tops instead of 2 towers with double 15's think about it read the specs on your speaker columns even the newer JBL's (horns) only have a 70 degree coverage across the front of the stage by the way this doesn't apply to the subs they need to be on the floor on either side or the middle of the stage because you just don't have the same dispersion problems with the lower frquencies. By using 4 seperate cabs (with 1 horn and 1-15) in each you can turn them in an outward v shape line array if you will with the inner ones pointed down a little and now you are getting 140 degree coverage across the front of the stage and 140 degree coverage from front to back thus BETTER SOUND DISPERSION.

JH - that makes good sense, as long as you can afford it.

LOL so true Philby I have never totaled up how much I have invested but personally excluding guitar gear. I would say some where in the neighborhood of about $15,000.00 and the Bass player has about another $7000.00 to $8000.00 so we put on a stage of about $22,000.00 to $23,000.00 just in p.a. this excludes lighting and the backline and guitars and drums.

Ive reread all this about pointing amps this way and that.

The reality for me is that all the players in my band need to hear each other cleanly. If it means turning amps in so be it. As far as bass and drums playing and me just laying guitar on top, thats bullshit in my bands case. We play as a unit, not as individuals. I understand where everyone is coming from on this, but in the end everyone just needs a good comfortable listening level to the other players. Me pointing at the drummer isnt going to change that. When weve done that if Im beaming on him to hard he will just tell me to turn down, or tell the bassist to turn up.

This aint really rocket science.

JH, Line Arrays are the way to go if you have a big budget and a large room. But in a club situation come on, they dont pay us enough for all that. Oddly Ive checked rooms when we play with a db meter and its fairly consistent around the room. There is a hot spot close to the speakers but generally the whole room is within 2dbs anywhere you go.

My main goal soundwise is that we get a good clean consistent sound around the room. I like to stand in any place in the room and hear all the insturments cleanly with the vocals standing out on top. We are blessed to have a pa system that will deliver. One key for us is the DBX Rack Pack we put in to eq the room. It makes it easy an smooth to get the room sounding good.

This started out as a post with me admitting that at my last gig I got a little hot volume wise. We still sounded as good as always, I just got a little hot. By sharing that it makes me more aware, so that next time I will back off some. All this comes down to knowing your equipment well enough to get the sound and tone you want at any volume level. Also by sharing hopefully other guitarist like myself will realize this, so they in turn can make adjustments at their gigs.

Hello Jw, I posted that so that people who are considering buying a p.a. could understand how important sound dispersion is yes your d.b. meter is telling you the decibles are consistent but if you stand off to the side you will find the sound more muffled because the horns are only covering 70 degree's of a 180 degree room if you buy 2 columns with double 15's and 1 horn, for just a little more moola you can get 4 cabs with the same amount of 15's and twice the horns and you also have the option of directing them in an array type fashion for larger venue's and for the small venues you just use half your speakers and in none of the venues do you have to be earsplitting loud, I believe that sound quality is more important than just cranking up the volume I have a driverack p.a. also and when you auto e.q. the room the sweet spot is where you place the RTA mike but if you have better sound dispersion everyone gets great sound. This is not my invention it is the way contemporary soundmen think.

The reality for me is that all the players in my band need to hear each other cleanly. If it means turning amps in so be it. As far as bass and drums playing and me just laying guitar on top, thats bullshit in my bands case. We play as a unit, not as individuals. I understand where everyone is coming from on this, but in the end everyone just needs a good comfortable listening level to the other players.

You're right, of course. As usual this thread has gone wide of the original point, but has been interesting. I've usually had the opposite problem, I always try to keep the volume level down since I'm well aware that guitar players have a long standing reputation for being too loud, so I try to keep it down. Usually I end up with the band telling me to turn it up. That's given me hell trying to get the sound I want, since the sound I want is a tube amp cranked to 11.

Don't get me wrong, I have been too loud more than once, but usually it's not much of a problem, since I try to be very conscious of it, and keep my volume level so it blends during rhythm parts and stands out during leads.

As far as keeping time goes, you guys are right, bass and drums are the rhythm section and should keep the tempo on track...should...In some cases neither has any sense of timing, and I've had to stay on top of it myself. I don't like it, but sometimes that's the way it is. Having played with drum machines a couple of times for a total of around 8 years, my sense of tempo is usually pretty good. After playing 4 years straight with a drum machine, I suddenly had to play with a live drummer and it drove me nuts. The guy did have good timing, but not metronome steady and I really noticed it...I had a really hard time keeping my mouth shut but since I knew it was ME not him, I managed to suck it up...and not try to drive the tempo myself, which is not easy to do on guitar. I did talk to him about it and made sure to let him know it was my problem not his, (like I said he did have good timing as far as humans go) and we got some good laughs about it. In the end we got along well, I was careful to lake sure he knew I wasn't getting on his case, it was just that I was so accustomed to a rock steady drum machine and it was amazing how much a human with good timing varied. And his timing was good...

JW something occurred to me, the Mesa amps have a reputation for being loud, I remember playing a 22 watt Caliber series years ago, and the thing would stomp all over any 50 watt amp I've ever played, tube or not. I'm wondering if another brand amp would make a difference??? I'm a Fender fan from way back, so of course I'll say Fender first, but several other amps in the 20 watt range are out there that are very good. Orange, Vox, I think you mentioned Soldano in another thread, I'm wondering if one of those might be a little tamer in the loudness department...For the sound you're after the Fenders probably don't have enough gain, but Orange and Soldano are both designed for higher gain to begin with, since both are trying to capture some of the Marshall fans' attention. Marshall may be making a low wattage tube amp again, I"m not sure. Their very early most sought after amp was a 18 watt combo.

I know it's an expensive solution, but it might just be worth looking into...

Bill,

I can get a great sound at the proper volume level, I just got to feeling my cheerios this weekend a little and decided to crank her up and then had volume remorse. Kinda like a hangover.

Actually Ive learned with all my amps how to set them up proper to get great tones at manageble volumes. I also have a power soak that can take care of it.

Its just that little raging guitar devil comes out on my shoulder sometimes and makes me twist it. In my band I kinda run the show so noone says anything. I talked to our bassist about it and he said yea you were a little loud. I said why didnt you say something, he said hell I just turned my amp up to match you. It felt good!

Sometimes you just gotta rock!

JH on pa setup, we have started setting up in different ways. In a corner stage room we ussually set the pa stacks up halfway down one wall to get better dispersion, you just never know how we will do it. Ive thought about setting up the mains on the opposite wall pointing back at us, I just havent found the right room yet. You are correct in a perfect world we would have a little better setup.

As far as money I would say to rebuild our pa from the ground up would be in the 20 grand range.

Strange That volume remorse accompanies a hangover for me thats why I don't drink anymore at the gigs and I don't drink any less either because when I do that raging little guitar devil hops right up on my shoulder, he looks a little like Sam Kennison and in that screaming little voice he say's DO IT! JUST DO IT! CRANK IT UP YA LITTLE PANSY! and then I do

Strange That volume remorse accompanies a hangover for me thats why I don't drink anymore at the gigs and I don't drink any less either because when I do that raging little guitar devil hops right up on my shoulder, he looks a little like Sam Kennison and in that screaming little voice he say's DO IT! JUST DO IT! CRANK IT UP YA LITTLE PANSY! and then I do

I can see youve been there and donw that!


Alls cool!

I guess it all depends on the variety of tones, frequencies, sounds that you want to project. It can get complicated. As long as it works for you that's all that matters. I used to have a hand-held spectrum analyzer. I'd run a pink-noise generator and walk around the room and see what all the different frequencies were doing everywhere. There's no such thing as a perfect accoustic room. It was amazing how parts of the room elevated the highs and other parts elevated the mids and lows. You adjust the equalizer accordingly. Having the sound dispersed more evenly is an excellent idea, but it's even better when you can get a handle on what the accoustics are doing to your sound. A good sound person does the job of a spectrum anaylzer. I found that gadget to come in real handy sometimes, especially in rooms that elevated the high frequencies. I feel fortuneate that we've got a pretty simple band set-up. We don't play too loud (usually) and there's not a whole lot of different effects that we use. It's pretty much plug in and play. Makes controlling sound almost idiot proof...

That is the beautiful thing about the blues Bob, clean and simple

That DBX Driverack does that for you it is basically a computer that has a pinknoise generater and auto e.q.s your room for you it takes about 2 to 3 minutes sometimes it gets stuck and then all you have to do is move the rta mike a little and it will finish you can also save your settings so you don't have to keep upsetting the crowd with the pink noise, as long as you place your speakers in the same place your system is tuned to the room.

When I was a frontman (singer/bassist) I played with way too many drummers who couldn't keep time well. It was my job, hard and annoying as it was to draw the drummer back into the proper timing. If a guitarist tried to "lead" the timing during this it would have been a complete breakdown. Therefore I would've had to beat him about the head & neck with my bass until he got the point; thank god I always had good guitarist w/me!

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