General Music Chat

Good Advice Jimmy, I think this weekend I'll turn my cab in toward the drummer.

Something I notice that happens with my guitar is if Im playing loud our soundman tends to take me out of the mix. It sounds pretty good in the vicinity of the amp but if I move out into the room the guitar gets thin.

As Ive said in other post Ive gone thru the whole spectrum of amps these past few months and just need to find a happy medium. I guess the problem is I have too many choices. I know I drive our soundman nuts, but hell sound men are crazy anyway.

I think its good to throw stuff like this our there so other people can read it and hopefully learn something from it. Mainly me! Ha HA

I guess Im just a typical gun slinging guitarist, its hard to bottle that up sometimes!

Good move JW, please let us know how that works for you. It will seem a little strange at first especially if you're used to hearing your cabs directly. As I mentioned try to get some guitar in the monitor mix instead. Best of luck!

Ain't nun' called too loud in my book!

Just remember what Philby said, and make sure your timing is good, because he's right, the drummer will follow whatever he can hear best unless he's one of those rare birds that has excellent timing himself and lets nothing distract him from the tempo. I've had to stay on top of the tempo with a couple of bands. I played with a drum machine for several years and had excellent timing, so when the drummer varied I would really notice it and had to make him stay with me rather than the other way around. It's tough, because the drummer really needs to be able to work with the bass to get a really good rhythm section going. But when the drummer can't keep time whaddya do?

I would face th4e cabinet backwards and mic it, and let the sound man know he has to keep you in the mix so you can hear yourself. I've always preferred to mic everything and use the monitors to even the stage sound out, but very few bands will do it, most want to mic only the vocals. Drives me crazy because you get a much better sound overall if everything is in the PA and you let it do the work, keeping the individual amps low if possible. That's why the Champ works well, it's not loud enough by itself to hang with the band so it has to be pumped into the PA and monitors.

When not running everything into the PA I consider the Super Reverb to be the "master volume" for the whole band, if you can't hear it, we're too loud. At 45 watts it works pretty well, I can crank it to 10 and it's loud, but the overall volume doesn't get unbearable as long as everyone can still hear that amp. Only once has a club told the last band I was we were too loud, and when that happened I couldn't hear myself with the Super maxed out and was already telling the other guys to turn down. It was OK for rhythm parts, but when everything got louder during the leads I couldn't hear what I was doing. The MX was out of the picture since it had weak tubes and I wasn't using it, so I couldn't rely on that one to bring the guitar back into the mix like I can if it's working right. It will play clean leads on top of a full Marshall 100 watt stack...The Super Reverb won't do that since it's only 45 watts, so once I get to full volume and can't hear it, the only option is for everyone else to turn the hell down...

I checked it one day with a db meter, 108 at full volume. That means if we can keep it so it can be heard, we're averaging around 100-104dB or so except during the leads. That's not too bad, considering the MX is 130 watts and will produce volume levels that will damage your ears...I haven't checked it on a meter, but I've had it cranked loud enough to find out it will still play clean leads with a full stack 100 watt Marshall beside it...more than once...I'd much rather keep it a lot lower and get good sound, and don't really have to sacrifice much tone to do it, both amps do a good job with tone at lower volume levels, and if I want raunch, I have pedals that will do it. The key for me is to make sure the amp will produce more bass than I need, so when I play at lower volume levels I still have enough low end to keep me happy. I hate it when I go for a low note in a lead and it turns to mud...that's the number one reason I play only tube amps, solid state gets lost on low notes.

Weve kinda gone back to setting the stage volume with our amps.

We were putting everything in the monitors, but our sound guy would mess with it all night. I ussually punch in a tube screamer or a booster for leads. When I kicked it in the monitors would start howling.

We are 3 piece and play pretty aggresively so we are a higher volume band. We tryed the low volume deal with preamps and at times it worked great then the monitor mix would get out of whack and someone couldnt hear themselves. I found myself at times just playing by feel more than hearing myself. That can be very distracting.

Music is a constant work in progress. Our band has learned a lot about sound that we never really considered for years. I think overall we are sounding better than ever.

As I said Im going to turn the amp in some. Ive done this in the past at some clubs that provide sound so its not like I dont know how it will sound. A gig we did a few weeks had a funky corner stage and my amp was turned in for that show.

I guess Im constantly pushing to make my guitar sound as good as possible. Thats the deal the quest for that elusive Holy Grail sound. I think most guitarist are constantly searching for the best sound.

Thanks for everyones input. I like to hear from other experienced players whove been there done that.

I have my sound before it hits the amp or board. That way I can use any amp or direct-in to the pa or recording console. When ampless though I do miss the cabinet resonance sound, but the up-side is convenience and flexability. I've never let any amp determine my sound. That's just me, though.

"When your amp is pointed at the drummer, he tends to follow you."

Yes, Phil, that's the point. Since I lead the band, this is what I expect. That's why they call it lead guitar. I never let the singer assume this role. The Farleys just celebrated our ten year anniversary using this philosophy.

WOW! I've never heard that one before. the lead guitar is an "accessory" component of a 'group" and should always remain just that. even in a lead guitar based act like Ingveys' the drums work with the bass. where in the world did you get the idea that the drums should follow the lead guitar?
Oh nevermind... your a lead guitarist! they always think that "everybody" should follow them lol.

P.S. there is a lead guitar part in 2 of the 50 songs I've written in the last 2 years. I dont find lead even a necessary item in music and most lead guitarist more often than not try to get in front of the song rather than accentuate it!
I love a good lead, but most lead players just drive me fukn nuts!

www.myspace.com/blunderingeye
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"thems that knows me knows better, thems that dont, dont matter"

I think you're confusing the terms "lead" and "solo". When I refer to lead I'm talking about the main guitar part (which includes rhythm and melody parts) not a guitar solo. If the drummer can't hear me clearly he tends to get lost so it's my way of keeping him on track. Everyone's different of course but this works for us.

No offense meant to you Jimmy! I don't really follow on that distinction though. but in that case... solo guitarist usually just drive me nuts!

www.myspace.com/blunderingeye
www.myspace.com/445175001
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"thems that knows me knows better, thems that dont, dont matter"

In the bands I used to be in, the bass/drums were the backbone of the group. Us guitarists were just along for the (very fun) ride, and rode with the lead singer some, and then we'd do our solos and then fall back on the ever-present-ever-steady drums &bass to get our groove back on, and finish with a tight ending, and the crowd would go wild and.. uhh.. i digress.. what'd Bruce Springsteen call it .. glory days.. yeh ..

Q. How many guitarists does it take to change a lightbulb?
A. 5! I to do it and 4 to say, "I could do that."

Q. How many LEAD guitarists does it take to change a lightbulb?
A. None. We'll just steal everybody else's light.

I've played with guitarists who felt they had to "drive" the band. In my opinion that's NOT their job. That's MY job as the bass player. Anybody who plays solos (keyboard, harmonica, lead guitar, sax, etc.) is NOT responsible for driving the band. The bass player and drummer AS A UNIT drives the band. I always stick my amp "up the drummer's butt" so to speak. The guitar amp, harmonica amp, keyboard amps etc. should NEVER be pointed at the drummer. If a lead guitarist feels he has to "drive " the band maybe it's time for a new bass player/and/or drummer. Lead instruments should ACCENT the music, not drive it. As far as playing too loud, that's kind of excusable sometimes. We all have a lot of pent up energy at times and want to just rip. HOWEVER, if people get up and leave during the first set AND you don't correct the problem, then THAT'S NOT EXCUSABLE. Playing to an empty room SUCKS. Something is wrong when the room empties, especially if it's mainly people who come to see you play often. When that first set is over ask them what's wrong. Ask your sound man what's wrong. IF THE AUDIENCE CAN'T MAKE OUT WHAT THE SINGER IS SINGING IT'S TOO LOUD. The key is what do the vocals sound like? Do they sound CLEAR? I can't stand bands that play so friggin loud you can't understand the vocals. I tell my band members that when one of us is singing the instruments have to come down. Otherwise why bother have any vocals? Just play instrumentals. That's what you're doing anyway.

I guess I've been confused my whole musical life. The term "lead guitar" has always meant the guy what plays the solos, or "leads," to me.

"Band leader" is a whole 'nuther position, although they aren't always mutually exclusive.

By my definition, jimmyd would be the "band leader/rhythm guitarist," unless he was the one playing the most leads, in which case he's be "band leader/lead guitarist."

Have I been wrong all these years? Perhaps it's a regional thingie.

Is anyone else confused besides me & Hayden?

I,ve got to chime in with Phil on this band thing for a second.
The "lead" guitarist is the guitar that carries the weight of the guitar parts for the band in the way we are organized.
I am the lead guitar player. I dont always play. Sometimes I just do accent (or fill, if you will). Sometimes I only do lead licks, or solo.
(Why do they call it solo, if your not the only one playing?)
Sometimes Ray does the lead licks while I hold rhythm.
At any rate I do most of the guitar work, and carry the heaviest tone so we call me the lead guitarist. But the band takes most cues from the vocalist. Its the bassest and drumers jobs to set and hold tempo. We really dont have a band leader. But we allow Ray to have a little more say in the decision making process, as he is the one whom has to do the brunt of the vocals.

Bob:
Jeanette and I sat through a band a while back. The music was good but I could not understand a word the singer sang. We stayed and listened out of respect, But I really wanted to get up and turn his damn guitar down. The vocalist guitar was so loud I could not hear the other guitar player about %50 of the time either.

Back to the original topic:
It's funny to me how we cycle through the whole volume vs tone thing almost constantly.

"When your amp is pointed at the drummer, he tends to follow you."

Yes, Phil, that's the point. Since I lead the band, this is what I expect. That's why they call it lead guitar. I never let the singer assume this role. The Farleys just celebrated our ten year anniversary using this philosophy.

Perhaps I'm a bit "old school" but in my world, THE DRUMMER CALLS THE TIME! Only rarely , as in a case where the drummer doesnt know the song, and is expected to wing it, should anyone else count down the song. I also don't know if I agree with not facing the guitar speaker cab toward the audience. Perhaps in a case of a totally miked up system and a highly competent sound man it may be appropriate, but for small club work with a small p.a., it seems to me that a sideways facing guitar amp would render the high frequencies inaudible to the listeners.

However, if Jimmie says it works, it probably does!

(I'm a bit unorthodox in that I have a pa main right behind my head,with a mix of vocals, keyboards, kick drum and occasionally a tinge of miked guitar, and I hear everything the audience does, only LOUDER! no need for monitors)

Howlin'