General Music Chat

An untrained musician can do anything a trained one can do.... they just don't know "what" they are doing!

Is it more important to know what a G minor 7th diminished is, or to not know what it is, and play it like your making love?

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Hayden, quite frankly, both are important. If you don't know what you're playing it's pretty possible you won't be able to replicate it later if you didn't write it down or record it by some means. However, knowing it (and notating what in that chord is diminished exactly because writing it that way is ambiguous lol) will allow you to quickly write it down and move on to the next pretty chord. If you've got killer finger memory and practice enough to develop the skills to do it without "proper" training, you're learning theory in your own right, which is cool, but terribly limiting when you're trying to pass on your non-standard learning to the rest of the band/trying to teach someone a part. Having a common language in which you can communicate is pretty key to being in a band. Saying "Oh, I'm just play 'this,' then 'that,' then 'these'" to a bandmate can be pretty aggravating.

Not if your band-mates are talented.

Andragon, I may be misinterpreting what you're saying, but this has always been my take on it...

No, what you understood is what I meant. However, there's tons of ways to go bout it and get the same sound off an instrument (chords or otherwise).

I realize that it is quicker to "pass along" the song to other musician's if you all know how to read/write music, but is music to be assembly lined into existence?
do we need to get 25 songs perfected weekly?
As I said in the beginning of the thread, there is a place for both approach's, both separately and together.
So I hope all o this has helped you make the descision that you had already made!



www.myspace.com/blunderingeye
www.myspace.com/445175001
http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/6039/
http://bandmix.com/hayden-king/
hayden_king2000 on yahoo messenger

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I believe that there is a place for all musicians in this world because with out us there would be no music no joy therefore no life. Just look at how much music contributes to EVERYthing. I mean hell. you cant even watch a tv commercial let alone a movie without there being music in it. Theres music in EVERYTHING!! I think were picking on apples and oranges here now people!!! But I digress.. Andy just told me to "Take it easy on the shots, champ" in another thread so I will now go back to my tiny little corner.. and sit.. and behave.. lol..

I realize that it is quicker to "pass along" the song to other musician's if you all know how to read/write music, but is music to be assembly lined into existence?
do we need to get 25 songs perfected weekly?
As I said in the beginning of the thread, there is a place for both approach's, both separately and together.
So I hope all o this has helped you make the descision that you had already made!

I didn't say that. I just said that it alleviates communication barriers by having a centralized system of teaching and sharing material. Having that can give you the time (Face it, practices sometimes go to the crapper after even just a couple hours) to go over intricacies rather than translating all of the basic stuff back and forth. I suppose that's just my opinion though.

ZXYZ, well said, and I'll be doing the same lol

Back when I was 1st learning to play, I listened almost exclusively to European music. Most of the American acts I heard seemed "sloppy," for want of a better word, to my ears. Lotsa slide guitar & jamming, & loosely tied together, when compared to the tightness of a lot of foreign stuff I heard.

It took me many years to appreciate the jam, the improv, the whole "living totally in the moment" stuff.

This thread obviously comes down to, as so many do, our individual personal tastes. There is no right or wrong, here, other than what may be right or wrong for you, personally.

I usually prefer a more polished overall sound. Lots of ppl don't, leaning to the "raw" or "in your face" stuff. Nothing wrong with either, frankly. There is plenty of room in the market for both.

The polished, taught musician will have attributes that appeal to many of us. The band consisting of these will be extremely seamlessly tight, as if it all comes from a single source.

This actually goes against the grain of American individualized thought - we all want to be heard & appreciated for our own selves, or at least that's what many of us are taught to believe we should strive for. This is why American thought was able to create certain unique music styles like jazz or blues or rock. That's my theory, anyway, for what it's worth. These styles happen to showcase one person at a time, as each band member (or only one all-important member) takes his solo & gets to show off a bit. It's that "we are all equal but look at what I can do" attitude that is so uniquely American.

Some of us even tend to look at the polished band members as if they were socialists or fascists, forced into a mold, rather than seeing them as being a cohesive unit that produces beautiful music as one.

The self-taught ppl will bring a burst of energy or a flash of brilliance that will wow us, but the band may not seem as though the sounds all come from the same heart. Again, there's nothing inherently wrong with that. It's just another approach to music.

It's all good.

This is not such an easy question. It has pit falls in it. While the situation is theoretical the conditions are:

Original band project given a choice:

A) School trained musician with all the theory and all the mechanical skill, an excellent performer, but lousy at composing anything at all. All his compositions sound "over thought" "too technical" "tasteless"

B) Self thought axeman, does not know theory, can read a TAB on a good day, but can play by ear and play very well. All from the feeling, every bit of it, without knowing why he does it. However his answer to question: "please play me Half Diminished (Locrian) scale in A#" is "huh?"

It would seem that if you are writing music and need performer you go for A while if you are in need of input in creating music you go for B. Remember: they are both good at what they do.

Therefore an odd possible paradox: A School trained musician ends up playing in cover bands and/or for untrained musicians who created that music in the first place.

*edits
gtZip - no we are not talking about me. It is a hypothetical and perhaps unlikely situation where one would be given this exact choice. A loaded question to get your brain going.

Matt F - I am not saying that trained musicians suck. Of cause it is no brainier if you can choose a trained musician who is also a great composer but that was not the choice in the original post.

SlippedNot - choosing the guy 'B' may seem like a logical choice, yet that may be that pit fall I am talking about. You are experienced musician I have a lot of respect for you. Let's play a devils advocate. What if you do not care about his ability to improvise and you are on a tight schedule? Would you still take the untrained guy? They both can shred that fretboard, one will do like you tell him to, the other is how he feels it (both consistent all the time). Both excellent players though.

Hayden King - very eloquently put. However I am not given that choice. Lately I am given a choice between a drummer who can't play drums and bassist who can't play bass. I was lucky to meet a guitarist in my area here on this site who is BY FAR better player then I ever will be and him and I are working on new stuff now. Personally, if I would be formally trained I would take a schooled craftsman and so I can give him a piece of paper with my music on it and let him have at it. But since I can't write that piece of paper in the first place, his ability to read it means nothing to me. I am not that caliber.

Uhhh...Please play me Half diminished (Locrian) scale in A#?
Uhhh...Why?

Don't you know that Locrian is the Devil's mode? (Would have got you severly punished in the middle ages!)

Alexander, I'm just giving you a hard time, but my point is that asking someone to do that is basically saying "How much musical knowledge do you have?"

This all reminds me of a time (sorry, 'nother boring flashback) that I played with two guitarists. Long story short, it was the two guys you described. I kept the self taught dude because he rocked. The trained dude didn't have a creative bone in his body. All he knew was the stuff he'd been "Taught."

Ah-a! I get it now. So, both play with the same feel, same techniques and same quality. But, one of em knows exactly what scale it's from, what chord he should play after, etc... and the other one plays whatever frets his fingers land on, cause it's natural.
If so, then you should choose the one that is more like yourself. Do you know theory like the first one? Or do you play what feels right like the second one?

What he say

:?: What he say

I have no clue. I haven't been sleeping well lately

take a val or xanx .. helps me..

Uhhh...Please play me Half diminished (Locrian) scale in A#?
Uhhh...Why?

Don't you know that Locrian is the Devil's mode? (Would have got you severly punished in the middle ages!)

Alexander, I'm just giving you a hard time, but my point is that asking someone to do that is basically saying "How much musical knowledge do you have?"

This all reminds me of a time (sorry, 'nother boring flashback) that I played with two guitarists. Long story short, it was the two guys you described. I kept the self taught dude because he rocked. The trained dude didn't have a creative bone in his body. All he knew was the stuff he'd been "Taught."

lolol The Devil's interval, I totally just had that exact conversation with some other music geek at lunch the other day.