General Music Chat

If you're refering the modes explanations, then I think it's just a matter of different people trying to break it down to the point where someone learning it can understand it easily.
I've been holding off coming back to it because I want to crystalize a clear and concise way to convey the info.

well, if that annoyed you then let me take it one step further... (hehe)

so in the key of G Ionian... (G A B C D E F# G)
if you play a I, IV, V progression using only bar/power chords (root + 5th)
you get:
Ichord = G + C
IVchord = C + G
Vchord = D + A
-with these simple chords you have not 'nailed down' the key... you could be playing a I IV V in the key of G Mixolydian (G A B C D E F G)
so...
you could create a hybrid scale by adding the F# to the g ionian scale and create some really cool tension... w/o having to think about it too much.

All of that crap would slow me down. I've never taken a lesson. I never know what I'm playing. I'm not a great guitar player, but I know when something is right for any given moment.

all my teachers said: theory is only for when you practice... when you play (improvise) all that goes away and you simply listen to that little voice in your head.

I can't imagine joe pass is sitting there thinking 'ok this tune has an Amib5 and a G7#11.... that means...'
most jazz music modulates the key every other chord so I can't imagine even keeping track of what notes are flying around...

but try playing over one of his tunes w/o knowing anything about theory and see how much help your ear really is...

all my teachers said: theory is only for when you practice... when you play (improvise) all that goes away and you simply listen to that little voice in your head.

I can't imagine joe pass is sitting there thinking 'ok this tune has an Amib5 and a G7#11.... that means...'
most jazz music modulates the key every other chord so I can't imagine even keeping track of what notes are flying around...

but try playing over one of his tunes w/o knowing anything about theory and see how much help your ear really is...

No, No, No!!! Theory is just something for your weaponry. Don't analyze it unless you want to be a college proffesor. Do you think the Greeks sat around for the purpose of inventung modes. No, they wanted to get a grip regarding composition. You want to get that power. You want to be able to jump in when needed, you want to be able to "hang". You should be able to play to the best of your ability which just might mean you gotta learn somethin'. but don't analyze. Analyzation is for future theorist. Don't make the mistake of thinking that learning a scale or a mode may be out of your reach. You learn one or two modes or scales then improvise within those perameters then try another scale or mode and achieve the same goal. And, hey, don't forget Twinkle Twinkle Little Star or Sometimes I feel Like a Motherless Child and use familiar tunes like this in the for of a quote or two. Don't turn down good ammunition.

Yea, that right, I was blastin twinkle twinkle through my tube amp cranked to the max just last night.

all my teachers said: theory is only for when you practice... when you play (improvise) all that goes away and you simply listen to that little voice in your head.

I can't imagine joe pass is sitting there thinking 'ok this tune has an Amib5 and a G7#11.... that means...'
most jazz music modulates the key every other chord so I can't imagine even keeping track of what notes are flying around...

but try playing over one of his tunes w/o knowing anything about theory and see how much help your ear really is...

No, No, No!!! Theory is just something for your weaponry. Don't analyze it unless you want to be a college proffesor. Do you think the Greeks sat around for the purpose of inventung modes. No, they wanted to get a grip regarding composition. You want to get that power. You want to be able to jump in when needed, you want to be able to "hang". You should be able to play to the best of your ability which just might mean you gotta learn somethin'. but don't analyze. Analyzation is for future theorist. Don't make the mistake of thinking that learning a scale or a mode may be out of your reach. You learn one or two modes or scales then improvise within those perameters then try another scale or mode and achieve the same goal. And, hey, don't forget Twinkle Twinkle Little Star or Sometimes I feel Like a Motherless Child and use familiar tunes like this in the for of a quote or two. Don't turn down good ammunition.

wow, don't go out on a limb there or anything...
could you possibly be less specific?

Yea, that right, I was blastin twinkle twinkle through my tube amp cranked to the max just last night.

Laugh But it all comes in handy, and I don't mean play the entire song. You play just enough to get the audience to laugh then move on. There is a jazz ballad called A Child Is Born. My flute choir is performing it and I added the first 7 notes of Twinkle at the end of the piece. Do you get the connection.

Oh and another thing. You should learn Twinkle Twinkle ( or any simple tune ) in all three ( ) keys that you know as-a-matter-of-fact.

Why?
Enlighten me.

Why?
Enlighten me.

Okay. It's all in the name of interest. Using a quote that is very familiar is the only time that non-musicians will get it. They may not can say Hey he is using the Bb minor Blues arpeggio in intervals followed by a chromatic passage. But, insert the first 10 notes of The Flintstones, you will get a major response from the audience. Remember you are not just playing for yourself, you are entertaining a sloo of adoring fans. When its all done, intellect doesn't matter... what matters is the communication. In contrast, I heard a Hendrix lick used in a very funkified jazz solo and it enlightened me. Acutally it made me want to go out and buy, not only that band's CD, I also went out and bought a jimi hendrix's greatest hits CD. Another example: Imagine doing a cover for Alice Cooper's "School's Out" and throw in a lick from-" Ding Dong The Witch Is Dead" or "If I only Had A Brain" of The Wizard of Oz during the guitar ( or flute ) improvised solo. Use a quote that is related to the music being played in the moment. As a matter of fact Alice Cooper does a quote in that song " No more lessons, no more books, no more teachers dirty looks". Similar affect with words.

Remember it is all part of the bag of tricks. They're ideas that do not always have to be used for every song being played. AND, they can be anything. The Flight of The Bumble Bee has rescued me many times when I thought I drained my bag of tricks.

I'm with Paul. I've never taken a single lesson. I play by ear and just make sh*t up as I go.

I'm with Paul. I've never taken a single lesson. I play by ear and just make sh*t up as I go.

I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with that at all. The best way to improvise is without fear. The hardest people to teach improvisation to are those who have never gotten off the page.So by never having a lesson you are teaching courage to legit players. I am just trying to open the door to the wood shed and add different pieces of wood
as you use your ax.

I guess it depends on your audience...
if musicians come to see you play... I would think 'hacking it up' by throwing twinkle twinkle down would result in them taking you less seriously... but I could see how an audience of 'reg joes' would eat it up like candy.
now when you do a rendition of the song... such as vic wootens 'amazing grace' that is a diff story all together...

then again: in hendrix's national anthem... as I recall... he busts off a few notes from some popular song... I can't recall what one... but he seems to pull it off pretty well...

back to the topic at hand... theory works for guys like joe pass, george benson, chet atkins, steve vai, joe satriani, frank zappa, steve morse, bb king.... etc etc etc.,
but not every band can fit one of these monsters in it.
the red hot chili peppers, for example, have no room for such nonsense... and they showcase one of the greatest 'feel' bass players for my money -flea.

then again, I think everyone COULD benefit from understanding a little more (myself included), and it ain't exactly rocket science folks!

Black, I do think it's good but once learned you need to go outside the box. Having that knowledge is a good thing but tuck it away and develop your own style. Improvise and let your fingers go. Don't worry about being perfect. Play what is natural to you. I love playing blues but my blues don't follow the norm. I noodle everything but it seems natural to me and it just happens. If you spend all your time trying to sound exactly like Steve Vai note for note you will never truly enjoy the music. My older brother who was one of the best guitarists I've ever heard never had a lesson either but he encouraged me to audition for Berkeley School Of Music when their scouts came to Seattle. I put a Southern/Rock type song together called Texas Boogie which I have a sample of on my profile. I auditioned and received a full four year scholarship. I was pretty excited about going but things fell apart in my life when my older brother died suddenly. I never did go. I regret not going but I don't know if it would have made me a better musician or not because I play what comes natural to me anyway.

It's the "musical theory" that allows you to connect "the voice in your head" to your "fingers/physical skill" of what your playing.

I hope that isn't a duplicate..

Maybe just common sense..

If you can already play "that voice inside your head", the need for "theory" is diminished but, it can never hurt you.