General Music Chat

This can be a difficult subject for many of us, because it hits close to home & makes us really look at ourselves -

In any group, there's one or two ppl who are especially sensitive to criticism. Sometimes they are so sensitive that the band dynamic devolves into a "dog-pack" mentality, with everyone piling on the poor unfortunate one who's feelings get hurt so easily.

There are others who can be rather insensitive to the needs of others.

I always look at things like "this ain't no place for the weak," myself, so I suppose I am one of those insensitive types. I always tell it like I see it, & often ppl's feelings get hurt, even when I attempt to tone down my critiques & really consider the feelings of others. I don't consider myself to be a button-pusher, but when you're like me I guess it's bound to happen, sometimes. I've learned to keep my thoughts to myself unless they're asked for, & then, well, if you don't like what I say, then you shouldn't have asked in the 1st place. That isn't to say I don't have positive things to say. I'm not one of those nay-sayers or someone who actively seeks to pick on other ppl...I just say what's on my mind when it's on my mind, if you're interested enough in my opinion to ask for it.

In a small group of ppl, as in the average band, this can be a problem for some ppl.

Let's face it - there are some ppl you just can't blend or mix well with, no matter how good the music can be between your efforts. There are some ppl who enjoy making others feel uncomfortable. We've all had to spend time with them, & it always ends with someone geting ticked off, taking their toys & going home in a huff.

I've never actually seen anyone who get along with everyone all the time. There are ppl who just push yer buttons, no matter how you try to get along with them. There are even those who actually TRY to push 'em to the limits, cuz it can be fun for some ppl to do that.

The question is - do you try to put aside these differences for the good of the music, or do you move on to hopefully better grasses on the other side of the fence?

Next q - how do you filter these ppl out when you meet them?

No real reason or issue I'm getting at, here. It's just that I recently auditioned for a band where the group dynamic wasn't at all comfortable. The one guy obviously had problems with another, & I think he was hoping to get a new guy that could balance out the distracting overall dissention that he thought the other guy was causing. Needless to say, I passed on the act, & couldn't talk about it in detail on here cuz some of the band members use this site. No need to get in the middle of an on-going controversy, no matter how good the act.

From my own experiences-

Business is business. If a member suggests a cover and one of us doesn't want to do it, our rule is that everyone has to approve. This may sound self-defeating, but there is nothing worse than doing a song that a member just doesn't want to do.

Regarding criticism, it's in the same ballpark, when a member get's shot down on a cover suggestion, playing a part wrong, being chastised for not coming prepared, whatever, he needs to accept that criticism and make an effort to address it. We tell everyone up front the rules, and ask them if they can handle regular, and sometimes sharp, criticisms. So far not one person has said "no, I can't handle it", but you are correct to point out that it's difficult to weed out the ones who do take it personally.

Like I said, business is business, and while it's sometimes ponderous to try and get along with each other on a personal level, it should never be ponderous on a business level. Once we strap on our instruments and start rehearsal / gigging, it's business. If someone can't handle the business, then they need to move on and find a "for fun" band that's all personal and no business. It really don't solve the problem that the specific person has with accepting criticism, but it solves the band's problem of having to deal with them

It depends on how much the music means to you. Are you certain it’s like the best stuff you ever did or heard? Then yeah to be part of that I’d suffer a few bumps and bruises. It also doesn‘t mean if you recognize a problem like that it‘s entirely unsolvable. Perhaps having that incite, you could be the glue that holds it together?

But if no mutual respect can be achieved with all the band members, then it’s just a matter of time. It’s hard because of the informal atmosphere for musicians, but if the group enforces a professional mentality, it can bypass a lot of that “feelings“ stuff.

When I collaborate with someone some things I try to do to prevent bad feelings:

Listen to something at least three times. The first time is always alien, it’s something totally new. If it changes the sound drastically, is it for the better or worse?

If I feel I must stand my ground, where I don’t want something changed, I wait a couple of days to voice an opposition. Am I staying fast because my way sounds better, or am I just trying to maintain more ownership of the song and it’s purely a matter of ego? One day in a bad mood and nothing sounds “good” and when in a great mood, I can fool myself into thinking something sounds a lot better then it does. A couple of days allows for a more realistic assessment. Why say anything right away? The next session gives it time to sink in and it could just been a bad day, next time could be better.

Force politeness from myself and those around me from the very beginning. You don’t want to stifle creativity, but on the other hand if it’s too casual a relationship, professionalism evaporates. The difference between saying, “I think you could have done that better.” or “That sucked” is huge. If I knew someone twenty years my criticism would probably nor have to be too guarded. But if you meet a musician, who ten minutes in thinks nothing of tossing out insulting critiques, that person really needs to be stomped on quickly. Discontent doesn’t work well in any group dynamic. Some people thrive on conflict, if you give them the pushback they want so badly, they will typically fall in line. If not and it’s some incurable aggression, you won’t be able to accomplish anything anyway.

I feel similar to how you said it. If someone has criticism, I have to take it seriously. After all it’s my decision to work with them and if I don’t trust their sincerity or have doubts in their competence, I shouldn’t be working with them in the first place. If done politely with basic consideration, in a professional manner, criticism should be no problem for anyone who really wishes to improve themselves or the music.

Music is a platform for attention, as well as a creative endeavor. But if someone has an “It’s all about me attitude”, it will be like running up against a wall to have any rational changes. If anyone has ever confessed to playing something perfectly, they would have too large an ego for me to deal with. Even greats have reservations and if someone professes to being at the top of their potential, the only direction left is down. They had better be really awesome, because that’s as good as they can get ever.

My favorite saying when the band is in discuss mode is. I'm just the guitar player, I just want to play. Ray who is not really a forcefull personality but is a redhead and has some strong opinions at times.
He is the defacto leader as the band was his idea originally. Sometimes we push him a little to make decisions when the rest of us have a neutral opinion on a matter.
As far a screening people, that wouldbe difficult as it usually takes some time to tell a persons true demenor. In a business setting there is nothing wrong witha probationary period being in effect for both parties involved.
A gracefull out if you will before the true commitment profile is outlined.

the music is the most important thing to me, since it's all original with me. so I consider it our job (mine too) to express the intent of the music. if anyone has a problem doing it or cant follow the needs of the band, for any reason...they need to go. posers always find something to bitch about, mostly to hide they're own inadequacies. I'm that insensitive prick sometimes but it usually only comes out when when it's necessary!

Unfortuneately when you reach a certain level of proficiency you simply CAN'T have band members who aren't up to that level and hold the band back. You have to be polite and simply tell them they're not at the level you need. If you get into a new band and it doesn't feel right immediately you tell them you're not interested and move on. I've never had to do this for a living (been recruited a bunch of times to play full time) and first and foremost this has to be FUN. Pardon my french, if you have an a-hole in the band it ISN'T FUN. This HAS to be fun while at the same time the band has to MOVING FORWARD MUSICALLY. Everyone has to be pretty much at the same level and put in roughly the same amount of work to keep things MOVING FORWARD. If you find it necessary to constantly criticize someone then chances are that person is not the right one for your band. LIFE IS TOO SHORT TO CONSTANTLY HAVE ARGUMENTS IN A BAND. I'D RATHER GO FISHING. Later...

I'll chime in.

I dont think you can hold back when there is a problem. You need to face it head on immediately and get it resolved. If not it will grow way bigger than it should be.

Song selection should be group decision, original or cover, however in most groups there is a dominant individual that determines the direction of the group. This person ussually gets support from lesser dominant individuals for support.

I got in a second band. At first it was a 3 piece and a member from here contacted me about being the vocalist #1 Lead Guitar #2. That was the priority at the time. When I showed up for the first practice the other guitarist had assumed the singer position, but in my opinion wasnt ready to get out in public and I knew I wasnt going to get out with the group as it stood. The person that contacted me said we need you to help transition this thing. I said ok. So the next practice I just came in and said hew we need a singer. So the process of finding one started. Then this other guitarist was and I repeat was one of those players that thinks if a song is in the key of G and you know a G major chord that everything is good to go. We were playing Sweet Home Alabama and this guy was just hacking away at the chords. I stooped the group in the middle of practice and called him on it. I said you need to learn the song! He said Sweet Home Alabama, I said man you are just hacking away at the song. He was pissed at first and bowed up pretty bad, but I guess he had some respect for my musical experience. I called him a few times and encouraged him to tear the songs apart and not necessarily learn it note for note but learn all the little vibe timing changes of the song instead of just hacking away. Since then this guy has really turned it on. I can tell hes been working and will probaly take over the lead responsibilitys from me over time. Why did I do this instead of keeping my mouth shut? Well I used to be that guy who thought knowing the chords was all it takes and nobody called me on it cause I am a dominant personality when it comes to music. SInce this initial confrontation this player I critisized has grown as a player at an accelerated rate. In real life I manage people so its my job to get the most out of people and make them feel important so they add rather than distract from a situation.

I think if you have a problem with a player in a band you need to dig in quick and figure it out. If you cant do it individually you need to get the group involved. If you cant get it resolved, then I suggest moving on cause its like a marriage, its not going to go away. It will simmer under the surface until some stressful situation makes it explode like a volcano.

A band has to be united in their vision or they cant be long term successful, and if they do get successful they wont be able to stay together. I think of G n R when I say this, they should be thier generations Rolling Stones but there were to many differences that didnt get resolved. I like to call it The Spaghetti Syndrome.

Philby this is actually a very good subject, cause if the group dynamic is bad, theres no way to overcome it. I think if you have no time invested in the group I would walk away, and if asked why I would say there is something going on here that I dont understand and dont want to be a part of. I would do it politely, say I feel tension between memeber 1 and member 2, and that if that was resolved you might be interested in the gig. This might cause the group to examine its problems and resolve them, which whether you join the group or not helped this band over a hurdle, that needed to be crossed anyway.

Good Luck

This is a good thread. A lot of good information on band "tactics" come to light. It makes me wince sometimes knowing that my own inadiquacies hold our band back, however the boys are very supportive and help me to grow as a player. I have a lot of music in my head yet my lack of knowledge in music theory makes it difficult to get it to my fingers.

I would like to comment on this subject.

I have been inactive to the dismay of my fellow musician and friends for more then a year, this self imposed exile from the band scene came after the last venture with a bunch of guys with definitely strong opinions about the direction that the band should have taken, unfortunately none of those opinions were alike or even useful.

The attitudes of the various members are described in this thread in the form of “business is business” or “this is no place for the weak” or “if you're interested enough in my opinion to ask for it” or “if anyone has a problem doing it or can’t follow the needs of the band, for any reason...they need to go”

I get the chills just reading it, no doubt when in a band there have to be some guide lines but when these guide lines become absolute rigid tenet carrying the weight of a biblical commandment, it’s time to run as fast and as far possible, because at this point music has assumed a distant second place supplanted by the perceived need to enforce the rule.

It’s the same every time, after the first burst of enthusiasm the “lord of the fly “process takes place, the strong personalities emerge and more often then not, these individuals become self appointed dictators not because they have better musical ideas but strictly because it’s their personality which they proudly display with phrases like “I tell it like it is” or ‘if you can’t take it get out”

Gone are the real requirements needed to keep a diverse group of individuals together, diplomacy, compromise, open mind, tolerance and the ability to discern who is talking because he or she has something to offer to the band and who is talking to satisfy their personality, under these conditions a band is doomed, left unchecked the strong personality becomes a bully in the mistakenly believe that he or she has a monopoly on good musical ideas and has no problems “telling it like it is” while the weak even when he or she has the right stuff which benefits the band gets eclipsed by the bully.

Unless I’m dealing with something worthy I.E. a voice that is marketable, writing skills sellable and musicians technically capable to pull it all together after years of gigging, I’ve excluded myself from bands without regrets, rather then been told by some unqualified bully “if you can take it get out” I’ve reached the point that I ‘ve no problems and see no loss in saying to potential bullies asking me to join them “get lost” I’d rather stick with my freelancing as a journeyman, jamming with friends in their down time and make my own recordings, it’s more fun this way, financially I haven’t lost much at all when considering that 95 % of bands are lucky if they make enough money to pay for transport gas, besides I never played for the money, luckily my profession has provided me with financial security, so when it comes to music my motto is: If it ain’t fun I ain’t doing it.

I think if a band will work or sound better without an individual, then he /she should be put on notice to get on track.
Try to tell them in such a way that they don't lose face.
The object is to improve the band sound, or to stop dissent, not just break 'em off . . .
Give them a certain time period to show good improvement.
If they won't or can't do it - they need to leave.
.
If they're causing more problems than they are causing solutions, then they are an obstacle to be stepped over.
.
Never let anyone hold you back . . .

I dont think everone in a group has to be 'friends'. What you do need is mutual respect. That includes things like being prepared, showing up on time, not being messed up at practice, etc.
Usually when we reach at certain age, any of the game playing or bullying type of behaviour doesnt fly. Although... I know a few thirty-somethings that still act like they are still in their early twentys.
If you're in a band that is mostly buisiness, it should be pretty cut and dry on how you handle things.
If its more personal... there usually is some sort of sibling rivalry that rears its ugly head from time to time. If you have a close relationship between members, you end up spending so much time together that you basically become family.

A long time ago there was this band that was up and coming. One night there was a huge disagreement between the drummer and the singer/guitarist on what cover song to perform.
People were shouting for more and they had ran out of material except for a few covers that they knew, so the singer, being the band leader, put his foot down and out they went out again to play.
The singer greeted the crowd, and introduced the song.
Then the drummer proceeded to start the drum beat of the song that he wanted to do.
Enraged, the singer and the rest of the band soldiered through the drummers pick of cover song. As the last notes were ringing out, the singer dropped his guitar to the stage, ran over to the drummer, and punched him in the stomach. Right in front of god and everybody.

That band? Metallica.

You see, pretty much any issue can be gotten past if the bond is strong enough.
But if it feels bad going into it. Bad vibes from day one... dont do it. There plenty of other people to play with.

hey fretwork, while I agree with a lot of what you said, I also disagree on a few points, especially the "self appointed dictator" part. Sure, it happens- I'm sure every one of us have been victims of that curse at one time or another.

But, there is a flip side to that coin, as there is always two sides of everything. I am that self-appointed dictator; and for good reason. My drummer has great insight on songlists and setlists. I listen and usually go along with whatever he wants, unless I see a specific reason not to, and that has happened. There were no hard feelings when it does happen. Taking the business approach, and attacking things head-on as JW talked about is a very proactive way of resolving problems before they become problems.

But getting back to the dictator thing- My drummer is computer illiterate, and my ex-bass player never had any time outside practice. Our singer is extremely green. I am the one who set up and manages the myspace page, Bandmix profile, CL ads, auditions, etc... I'm the one who discussed with each member, as a group, and independently, the band's direction; taking everyone's opinions and desires into account to make sure we're all on the same page.
I'm the one doing all the research on what band's are doing (reading through gigdoggy, JW's posts) discussing endlessly on many music forums what works and what doesn't. I'm the one who formulates the goals, how to reach them, what they are, what we need to do to reach the next goal, and then the goal after that. It's tedious work that takes hours and hours of planning, research, and drive. I'm the one working on merchandising, too.

I can't say I do it all, I DO get help from the drummer, his S/O, and some outside networked sources. But I can say, that without me, the band would forever be doing the same shows at the same bars and even mostly the same songs. Not that they want to do that, but they just haven't done the homework to realize HOW to do it successfully.

All in all, a band needs a leader, or even leaders, that can help guide the entire band as a whole in accomplishing everything, instead of just talking about it.

Now I'm the furthest thing from an alpha-male, but I know a few things:
1. I know what I want
2. I am determined to accomplish all my musical/band goals.
3. I will not allow a bandmate to slow me, or the band, down. (did that for years)
4. Because I'm the most qualified (research-wise), and the most determined, I must assume the leadership role, not because I want it, but because it's what is necessary for me to accomplish my personal goals, as well as "us" accomplishing the band's goals, as we have decided.
5. The band would not be successful if I lay back and just have fun. Goals would not get accomplished, and we would forever be a garage band.

I know my post sounds uppity, but I'm really not. Just determined. At my age, I don't have time for BS. Music is fun. It's even more fun when it the band plays it well. Even more fun than that when we play well to a larger audience. You have to be able to treat problems quickly and effectively, including kicking out the half ass open-g bullshitter player when he consistently holds the band back and shows no signs of improvement, or the desire to improve.

I'm also working on a side project where someone else is the de-facto leader. I have no say in anything. This person has more experience in almost every aspect of what we're doing. I accept that and keep my mouth shut. That's how things work.

***[/quote]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

luckily my profession has provided me with financial security, so when it comes to music

that means your a part timer or weekend warrior, so as far as Pro bands go, you opinion doesn't count!
No disrespect intended!