General Music Chat

Well, Joe, I'd have to say I'd turn my back on that kind of offer.
. . . guarantee me $500/week, and I'd still walk away.
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Very, very few musicians are in it just for the money, and that's all you offering: just a possibility of gigging and getting paid for it.
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Sorry, you've got to be real, man.
Most musicians are in it for the music.
Unless you're really popular and sought-after, a band member can make more money working in a factory.
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If you tell them they can't play with the music (as opposed to just playing it), then you've eliminated 90% of the incentive.
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And, if you are looking for musicians who are happy being an uncreative automaton, then . . . well, geeez, man . . . think about it. What kind of musician do you think would respond to that, eh?
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If you were a famous-name musician with an unccountable number of gigs under your belt, and if you're raking in a few thou a week, you could find what you're looking for.
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I think you'll have to pay your dues to be in that position.
Or pay a salary . . .
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Unless you soften your position - you're a solo act . . .

I was in a band briefly backing a rather well-known regional artist. I had almost zero creative input. Any musical ideas I had were basically ignored. Suppose you do form your theoretical band. What if you find out that one or more of your band members is a kick-ass songwriter, perhaps even better than you. What if you find out that one of your band members can sing, perhaps even better than you. What if one of your band members is a great salesman and can promote your band, perhaps even better than you. Would you not utilize their talents? Would you be DUMB ENOUGH not to utilize their diverse talents? I encourage everybody in the band I'm in to sing. I encourage everybody to write songs. I guarantee you're not going to end up with a very good band if you put a damper on the creative ability of your band members. They are also going to be MUCH HAPPIER having creative input. The longer your members stick with you the better your band is going to get. I know some "star" front men who constantly change their band line-up. After a while the band's live performance looks something akin to a funeral home sales meeting. If you're the kind of person who HAS TO BE IN THE LIMELIGHT 100% of the time then it won't be long before every creative musician in town knows this and you'll have a progressively harder time forming bands. That's just my opinion. Later...

Funeral home sales meeting??

I do appreciate the input, guys, and I realize that I sound pretty rigid in my approach (that's why I wanted to make it clear that this is hypothetical-don't get me wrong, I'm testing out ideas here, but I'm also kind of fishing in the dark).

I'll also admit that the "lack of creative input" is a result of years of frustrating band experiences. It seems that, for the last 15 years or so, everytime I leave myself open to other ideas, I get the doormat treatment, a lot of the time with my own material being pushed out of the picture. Many of my previous bands have been original collaborations, most of which have blown up in my face.
I even had one experience in a duo, in which we agreed to record a CD with each of us contributing 5 songs. After laying down most of the tracks for HIS 5, he pretty much refused to work on my songs-he had new songs that he wanted on the set instead. (He had also begun performing OUR songs-without me. Apparently, I had become a session musician on my own project! I like to refer to this as being Steely Danned).
Yeah, I know, what a sob story...but maybe you can see why I'm a little gun-shy about giving oppurtunities.

Anyway, maybe I need to try it a different way. How about this scenario (which will be much more accurate to real life)...

"I'm a singer/songwriter attempting to organize a band for the purpose of live performances as well as some studio work. I'm hoping to accurately re-create many of the songs that I have already recorded as well as the performing and recording of additional material that I have written..."

Now, with that statement in mind, what do I need to do to put together said band?

"Most musicians are in it for the music? Very, very few musicians are in it for the money?"

I have to disagree with both of those.

A previous thread exposed the fact that many of our own bandmixers are in it for chicks, fame and money, not necessarily for art's sake first.

How many people here are happily in cover bands? Many! How much creative input does that involve? Almost zero? But they do it. Why? They like to play. They like the attention. The chicks. It's fun to play out. The rocker mystique, making some side money, or whatever else.

It is not an accurate statement to say that taking the creativity out of it, would suddenly reduce the pool to zero. Wrong. If this were true, there would not be so many cover bands. Rhythm man is a songwriter, as well as musician. Many others however, don't feel creative enough to write, or feel they don't write well enough.

And there are a SH*TLOAD of musicians who will gladly back you up for union scale or even less. A SH*TLOAD!!! I have come across these people for years, weeded through them to get to the ones that want to be a part of an original project instead, seen their ads all over. There are SH*TLOADS of musicians that see this as nothing more than a paying gig, for doing something they enjoy or are good at. Whether they began for these reasons is immaterial. That is where they are now.


Try an experiment:

Two ads, in the same paper or bulletin board. Use your first name for one, and your middle name or some other name for the second.

For the first ad, mention that you are a singer/songwriter looking for creative musicians to form an originals-based project.

In the other ad, say something like this...

"PAYING GIGS!!! - Established local artist seeks musicians for a backing band, to support the release of the artist's debut CD. Must be available most weekends. Possible studio work as well."

Put both ads in the same place, same time, day, etc... (so they are seen together on the same page) and if you put "Paying Gigs" first thing in the sentence, let's see what happens.

It's my bet that you get TWICE as many serious responses than emphasizing creative freedom.

Im with Craig on this, the paying gig ad would get my attention first.

If I was to join a situation right now like the one you are talking about. I would want to be compensated for my time. I mean practices also. I wouldnt expect much, but I would expect something for my time.

Craig throws up the cover argument. Well covers you have a basis to start to play from. Ive played Sweet Home Alabama in everything from country to metal bands. If I put forth the same effort to learn your material and put heart and soul in it for live purposes, I expect to be paid some set amount that we agreed on ahead of time.

I can remember a couple of situations like this that I got involved in and they never seemed to truelly get off the ground for one reason or another.

My suggestion would be to develop your own acoustic act, with just yourself and possibly one side guitar player. If your songs are good they will come thru in this format. It leaves all the drama of a full band out of the equation. Its cost effective, less people less agravation. Thats just my 2 cents. Another step would be to get your songs recorded and use canned music, I know you dont want that, but that is another option.

Realistically, a 4 man group would require about $25 per man per practice and $50 per man for shows. For this you would want people that can play, not people that just want to play for fun. SO your cost could be $100 per practice and $200 per show.

A side note. A friend of mine has been playing with a rising country artist. They have gone to Nashville for some showcase gigs. My friend told me that this artist has a financial backer who payed for the showcases and also is paying the musicians. He was told recently that when they get some kind of contract for a recording that they will use session musicians for the recording, not my friend. My friend is a very accomplished guitarist who mentored me years ago.

I guess what Im getting at is that you are going to have to come off some money to make this happen. Try to get at least 2 people for each position, cause once you start gigging at some point someone will not make a gig.

Good Luck

did someone say free Guinness at every show?

I'm in...

I've kinda stayed out of all this not being a pro level musician. I got to say Joe, if your intent is to control every note and drum beat from four musicians? Sounds almost imposseble to me. Follow any touring live band and there is some varience in each performance. I think your base idea is sound as it's in use already with nearly every pop or country act out there. However I've said before a room full of uber talented muscians does not make a band. Check out any old Lawrence Welck show for proof.

Craig saves the bacon again! I AM going to try that experiment, Craig. The funny thing about this thread is that, when I started out NOT mentioning money, folks seemed kind of iffy. When I went back and added in a few $$, I actually had more people say the would definitely turn it down! Strange, huh? It seems to be a real struggle between the money and the creative input.

I have to say that my OP was pretty misleading. I'm not a creativity Nazi...but I am focused on the organization of the project. In my experience, musicians often missinterpret (?) creative input for mutual control...Of course I'm open to others' ideas, but it doesn't mean I'm going to carve every one of them into stone.

Y'know, the strangest thing about all of this is that, aside from Philby, no one approached this as a quid pro quo type of situation. I mean, we are all here looking for other musicians, right. And yet, nearly no one (I think Black 57 and Jeff Rozak kind of hit upon it) thought to ask if I was willing to "work" for them in return.
Many of the responses also suggested that people viewed it as a contractually singular project, i.e. "If you work with me, you wil not have any other musical life." I'm kind of dumbfounded by that.
Using Rythym Man as an example (no offense intended, Alan), I'm well aware that he is a (very talented) songwriter and musician. Still, isn't he here for the same reason as the rest of us? To find other musicians? Does he really mean to say that, if a project doesn't have his personal stamp on it, he won't do it? Not even if I play the side-man for him in return? I find that hard to believe, and I don't believe that Alan is that short sighted...
I'm picking on ALan a little, but I do think there is a legitimate issue there. So many of us are wanting to get our music off the ground, but I think this thread is a perfect example of why so many of us have difficulty (and I DO include myself in that). Unwillingness to bend in view of the big picture. Sorry about the book.

You make some valid points for us all to consider Joe. Sometimes I feel we have too much cooperation in our band. SOMEONE needs to be in the lead. Being of unsound mind and Germanic ancestry I get the whole nazi point. But that was kinda the feel I got from your posts.

Joe, ok, now that's a different story.
Sure - I'd do a trade - play some of your songs, if you played some of mine. Sure - that's ok, I just didn't see mention of that, though.
Maybe I just missed it (I understand I can be short-sighted, sometimes).

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Craig makes a good point.
I'm in the same boat as you - I prefer my originals over most songs. You and I may have quite similar viewpoints about our own original music, so maybe I'm being a bit of a mirror, for you.
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. . . don't know.
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I have enough material to play continuously all night long, and, yet, I''m always working on a dozen new songs . . .
Many of them are complicated and difficult to learn, but with constant practice, I usually finish up a brand new song every week or 2. I have recorded ideas for 100s of songs, but no time to do it all at once.
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If I'm going to defer practicing and composing my own music, I'm going to need a LOT of incentive . . .
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That's where I'm coming from.
And, maybe that's where you're coming from, too?
I'll bet you wouldn't want to stop writing and composing for anything.
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I will be learning new songs until the day I die.
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And I have 2 choices;
I can learn other people's music, or I can learn my own music.
If I do both, I will have to bring fewer of my songs into creation.
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So - that's the viewpoint of an original's artist.
You're looking for a cover artist.
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I would only learn other people's music if they agree to play in public with me. If we play 10 songs, 5 would be mine and 5 would be his.
Or maybe 4 & 4, and 2 covers . . .
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It sounds like you've had some bad luck.
I've had people steal my songs, too.
I had one guy take one of my songs, drop the song 2 frets, use the chords which I taught them, keep the 'hooks' exactly the same, write some different lyrics, and call it their song.
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No big deal, I have written over 40 new songs since he stole that one. And because I refuse to allow him to practice with me, he hardly has any song ideas at all. His loss, not mine . . .
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Now I'm ranting . . .
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Anyway - whatever you decide, I wish you good fortune . . .

Wow! Some fantastic responses, guys. There's a lot of good points, and it would take me too long to respond to each one, so let me dial in my deal a little more and tell me what ya think. Again, this is just a theory, so help me out!

THE UPSIDE:
1. Paying gigs-Aside from a small percentage (I'm thinking 10%) which goes to me, the band splits the rest. Example: A $500 gig. I make $50. The rest of the band (I'm figuring on four other musicians) split the remaining $450 ($112.50 per member). Yes, No?

2. Merchandise profit sharing-nothing really set in stone there yet, but I'm open to it.

3. Studio experience/credits-as I've said before, I usually pay about $50 per hr in the studio. This band would not only be my performance band, but also my studio band. I cover all recording expenses. There is also the long term possibility of collaborating on a future studio project, and I cover the expenses.

4. Marketing-Members are welcome to use My band's website, etc. to promote any solo (or otherwise "non-Joe") projects (within reason).

THE DOWNSIDE:

The idea of this deal is to help me fulfill my "vision" (as cheesy as that sounds). I can't allow that to be sidetracked. Creative input would be pretty limited, at least at first. It's basically "Here's the song, learn it."

I would never pay for rehearsals. Never. Too many times, I've been in bands where someone wants to spend valuable practice time talking about their girlfriend or their motorcycle. The bottom line is that when I get paid, YOU get paid.

There's probably more, and feel free to point them out...

A few of you mentioned that there wouldn't be enough creative input. I respect that, and I might even have a difficult time doing it for very long myself-being that my musical focus has always been the creative end. I feel the same way when playing in cover bands, which my project would more or less be (except the "covers" are my originals).

Anyway, a little more food for thought...keep those suggestions coming!

P.S. Craig, that band is killing me! ...Philby, I'd be glad to back ya up!...Shredd, can I at least wear a Lone Ranger mask with the tutu?

No, the leader gets the higher pay. $500 for a total of 6 musicians. You should get 100.00 and the the other guys should get $80.00.

I agree, unless your are wealthy don't pay for rehearsals. Good players should automatically want to rehearse.


Creative input must be limited, you are the artist here and you have to also be the dictator. No need to be tough or egotistical about it. You have your insights and you do not want to lose that for the sake of somone elses imagination. But if you want your musicians to return for another project, give them the respect of voicing their creative opinions.

Think of a symphony orchestra. It is the musicians job to play what the composer intended. That is why there are various directions given in written music. I mean, in classical music, for example, expressivenes, articulation, dynamics is mostly identified on the written page. But what about the segments that have nothing written. The performer is on her own to decipher the character of that given moment as it relates to the rest of the music. In that case, a good musician would provide artistic input while complimenting the music at hand. And justice for all

Alan, you are right. I didn't make that aspect clear in the post. You and I are so much alike in our creative outlook and the bad experiences. After my last post, I was kind of afraid that you might feel that I was criticizing you, which was not the case (I've been camping for two days and couldn't correct it!).

You guys have been a lot of help, and I've taken some great ideas from this (as well as some different perspectives). Thank you all very much!

p.s. Sans, yeah, I really came off controlling here, and I'm really not THAT bad... BTW, thanks for the Lawrence Welk reference-my mom used to make me watch it all the time-here come the nightmares again!

Glad to be of service.

Hey, Craig, how yadoin?
I just wanted to update you on the poll you quoted, ok?
Remember that you disagreed that most musicians were in it for the music?
I checked back on the poll . . .
76% of respondents said that - what was most important to them was "Playing and enjoying music. All else is secondary."
See for yourself, my friend, and - no big deal, I just happened to check.
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I guess it's better for the music world as a whole - that there are all sorts of different kinds of musicians making music, eh?

Money is good, but ownership is better. Who works harder an employee or a partner? I’m sure that anyone into doing there own music has spent those late nights, when work is just a few hours away, trying to get that phrase or chorus down. How much money did you make from that? Was it for the money or fame in the first place?

Sure it’s fine to dictate the direction and sound and that should be your sole discretion, but if others can say “that part is all me”, you’ll encourage dedication. Money may buy talent, but it takes more to buy loyalty. Even volunteers do it because they believe they can make a difference. Take that away and the only other option IS money. The quality being directly dependant upon the amount offered. If you have the bucks, hire someone to write it on paper, or use MIDI transpose, then hire session musicians. It’s all you at that point, including the overhead. Just remember results may vary.