General Music Chat

Yeah, what I compose is very mood-dependant.
You reminded me . . .
I had the outline of what I felt was a beautiful song, a slow song, about 2 years ago. It only needed some minor fleshing -out.
I'd discovered it by accident, while trying different progessions in and around about 15-20 chords.
I didn't even know the names of the chords, but serendipty touched me that day - it was just a wonderful combination of chords/emotions . . .
Unfortunately this was decidedly a sad composition, and I wsa in a pretty bouyant mood at he time. I wanted to play some uplifting music.
So I shelved it . . .
Yeah, you guessed it - gone forever.
Maybe someday I'll be in the right mood to discover it again, maybe not.

But, NOWadays it's all upbeat stuff.
Foot tapping & dancing stuff . . .
Jazzy, bluesy rock-like crossovers.
Smilin-music.
Some with 'weird' chords - chords that sound GREAT, if you know where to use them.
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I've written a lot of happy-sounding songs with 9ths in them.
And 9ths are notoriously sad-sounding.
It's all in the preceeding and following chords, and the rhythm . . .
Anybody else got a similar story?

I am happy to report that I know and love those 6ths, 7ths, 9ths, as well as the lovely minor flat fives, flat nines, sus 4s, diminisheds in all their various configurations. Learning to play these chords has changed my view of the guitar entirely, and opened an entire genre of music to me. How on earth could I play any jazz or latin music if I couldn't play a minor ninth?

It actually surprises me that so many guitar players are not interested in discovering the infinite variety this amazing instrument represents.

Hi, Nancy,
I agree. I get the idea that most guitarists know perhaps 20 - 30 fingerings of chords, not counting those same fingerings barred on various areas on the neck.
For the style of music they play, that's all they really need, I guess.
Myself - well, I guess I have a short attention span, or something. I tend to get bored playing the same style.
Or, I guess, more to the point, I get bored listening to the same thing. Especially if I'm the one playing it . . .
With my short attention span, I like a wider range of music than most people.
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Years ago, while learning to play, every so often I got 'burned-out,' and stopped playing for a while.
After some time I realized that I just got tired of hearing myself play the same songs.
That's when I'd crack the books, and 'discover' a new chord.
Wham! 1 new chord = 10 hours of fresh music.
As time passed, and I learned a few more chords, any new chord would keep me interested for another month.
As the years progressed, these chords became part of my musical subconsciousness.
I found myself waking up in the morning with delightfull progressions ringing in my ears. I'd rush to the guitar, to see what I have to do to reproduce it.
If I hear a C2, a C will not do at all.
But without learning the chords first, I probably would have originally 'heard' it as a C.
I have years of learning ahead of me, still, and I'm glad for that.

Now, when I compose music, I'll often 'hear' 2 - 4 chords ahead.
And, once in a while, as I play the newly-forming composition, I'll realize that the 3rd or 4th chord is one I'd never heard anywhere before.
I start searching, and usually find 3 - 4 chords that are similar to what I'm hearing in my head.
But, 'similar' is not good enough.
I play around, and experiment, untill I 'discover' the correct chord. Often it's a few years later that I find the actual name of the chord.
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Are you listening, Jonny? That's how I found that toh chord on the 10th fret; later to be correctly named as a F#sus2(#5)
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Nancy, do you play many toh chords?

I'm not sure what you are referring to with "toh" chords. I learned chord construction with a simple numbering system - i.e., do, re, mi = 1, 2, 3, etc. So when I want to find a flat five, I already know where one of the fives is, so I flat it, listen to the pitch and search for another place I might voice it. Many times I'll discover that one voicing of a chord is also another voicing of another chord. So a Dm7b5 can also be a rootless voicing of a Bb9. Every guitar player I meet teaches me something new and useful.

I recently became aware of an arsenal of great rootless voicings of 7ths chords that has really opened up my sound and left space for someone else (ideallly the bass player) to play the root. This helps unclutter the overall sound from redundancies and gives the mix greater clarity, something particularly useful for vocalists like me, who want to be heard above the mix without excessive volume.

My ideal would be to be able to play any voicing of any chord just by knowing its name. I often practice by testing myself to see how many places I can voice the same chord. And I also know that the guitarist I play with may be playing substitutions to the chords written, so it sometimes behooves me to stay away from the 9ths and flatted 5s and 9s, and just play a simple 7th or triad, rather than create some clashing harmonies with him.

Nancy, you are heads & shoulders above me in theory, and thus probably play more chords - I'm envious.
But - on the other hand - I'm certainly enjoying the journey.
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I really like the idea of playing chords without the root, and having the bass play the root.
That was an "aha!" for me . . . nice tip, thanks. It's nice to talk to someone who understands.
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For some reason your Bandmix page didn't open yesterday, but it did open today. We have a few things in common.

I see you're a new member, so -welcome aboard.
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I hope that sometime you'll be able to post a song or 2.
I just bought software last night to do so. I'd been using XP sound-recorder - 60 seconds max, 1 track.
So, if you visit my page, you might enjoy 60 seconds of "Frolicking Fingers," or "Caribbean Blue."
And, I'd value your opinion.
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By the way - you were wondering about the 'toh' chord?
Well - it's like this . . .
Can you remember back to a time when you were showing another musician a chord, and you didn't know the name of the chord?
I don't know about you, but I'd always fret it, then show the other guitarist, and say "This One Here."
This One Here - T.O.H., abbrev: toh.

C'mon - you did smile, didn't you?
Sorry for being a wise-ass, but you can always pass it on to your other guitarist.
Alan

Thanks for the explanation of toh chords. I am very much the wiser now. And glad I could provide someone with an aha.

I live in the Dark Ages of computerdom and still struggle with a 28K dialup connection, which is why I'm still waiting for your song Frolicking Fingers to download. And which is also why I haven't attempted uploading any of my own recordings. I have also written a number of songs over the years, but have found that, with jazz, I get to be a songwriter every time I improvise on a melody or sing a scat chorus, so I haven't been moved to write anything for quite some time.

A year ago, I couldn't have strummed through a single song in my book, but I decided to transpose everything into my own keys so I could hand good charts to players at jam sessions, and in the process of checking to make sure I had done it right, I started figuring out some of the chords. Then I pulled out an old sheet of chord diagrams that someone had given me years ago, and started studying in earnest. Now I'm good enough at it that the guitarist and bassist I've always worked with let me bring along my guitar and play on gigs.

What amazes me the most is that many, maybe most, of the jazz chords I have learned are EASIER to play than some of those grueling bar chords from my folk and rock days.

Yeah, a 28K modem is cruel and unusual punishment nowadays. I'm using a 52k dialup - takes about 3-4 min to download a song . . .
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Sometimes, when I need some inspiration, I refer to a wonderful book by Ted Green, called 'Chord Chemisty,' copyrighted 1971.
Dale Zdnek Publications.
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However, I haven't needed to refer to it for 6 months now - I'm going through a prolific stage already . . .
Thousands of chords there . . . .
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Yeah, I've found several 3 and 4 finger chords played way up the neck, that have unique voicings.
Rvery so often I'll select a chord which I rarely use, and play with it.
(You know the process: - what sounds good after it? What sounds nice before it? Hmmm, ok that works, but what would sound better . . .)
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Yeah, some of them are easier, but there's also a few which seem to require a 6 inch long little finger - one which is triple jointed.

I don't claim to be any kind of guitar expert, but I have been playing for years without really knowing what I was doing - mainly keeping to bar chords and basic first position fingering. It was all I needed to know to accompany myself on any folk, and most rock (though there were significant exceptions, like the Beatles).

Then I learned a few jazz chords, though I didn't have any idea what they were called or how they were constructed. But they came in very handy in inspiring me to write more interesting songs, or to come up with interesting accompaniment to other people's song ideas.

Still, I always admired those guys who could play coherent lines and could transpose any song into any key. "It's all either dots or spaces," my bass and guitar players say, because they truly understand what they're doing.They don't have to know what note the five of a chord is, as long as they know where it is in relation to the root note. And they have memorized the fingerboard, and the changes of the song, so they are what I would call fluent on their instruments.

That is my personal goal with the guitar, though I'm not even aspiring at this time to try to be one of those players who can play lines off the tops of their heads. I get too bored trying to practice scales. There's plenty to learn just doing rhythm accompaniment.

I only downloaded a 59-second piece of Frolicking Fingers, and it was very sweet and lively. Kind of hard to pigeon-hole as it has some of that backporch mountain sound, but not unlike more modern Windham Hill fare. You get a nice, bright tone.

For the last year or so I've been doing a lot of chords up the neck, where 3 or 4 strings are fretted, but all 6 are played.
That opened up a whole spectrum of possibilities for which way to steer/follow a song Idea . . .
I'm very weak on lead (I don't like practicing scales, either), but I have a fairly good repetoire of chords to chose from.
I never knew the names of a lot of the chords I used, because they weren't listed on any of the chord charts I ever consulted.
So, I'm still learning the names of many of the chords i've been using for years . . .
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Here's a site which helped somewhat:
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http://www.looknohands.com/chordhouse/g ... ex_db.html
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I found that studying theory always engaged the rational, logical side of my brain, and tended to disengage the emotional, musical half.
When my emotions are overidden by logic, I'm just going through the motions . . .
I'd rather play (and FEEL) the music, than study math . . .
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Glad you liked 'Frolicking Fingers.' It was only a 59 second clip to begin with.
I simply plugged into my computer, using the software that comes w/Windows XP, and 'had at it.' (There's a 60 sec limit w/WIndows, and it doesn't output mp3. I just bought some good software, and I've only recorded a few experimental songs.)

. . . yeah, I guess 'Frolicking Fingers' does have a 'back porch mountain feel' to it.
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And, it's funny that you say that, because I've had 2 people tell me that another song of mine, "Bradley Boogie," had a FRONT Porch sound to it.
I guess, between those 2 songs, I've got the house bracketed.
In the near future, I'll be putting 2-3 track songs, full length, in the places of the current songs.
Nice talking.
Alan

Heeeeeello!

Just got here, sorry for the late entry. We bassists cheat. We're really only required to hit one note at a time :)

I'm learning the ins and outs of spotting the fingerings of fun chords for the purpose of seeing them across stage during jams. Which, when you don't know something like a Bm11 by sight, it can get ugly all sorts of fast unless somebody yells REAL loud.

As a guitarist, you have to know these jobbers. Just for the sweet, sweet passing tones. Especially in acoustic music. Songwriting, people!

What gets fun for me, is when you're tracking somebody who changes their finger positioning a lot. Like that A you were talking about. Say somebody's fingered pinky/middle/ring, since they're going for sus4 or a Dsus2 or E6. Then they switch mid/ring/index on the same A to go to a good ol' D.

I'm 30 feet away, guessing from hand position, and those types of simple changes can make my brain have to get kinda aerobic. If it's improv, or if I'm following somebody who wasn't polite enough to shout it out before we started playing, I gotta squirrel back into happy sync land.

And, yes, there are cover bands out there that know oodles of chords. Few and far between, but there's one out here in Phoenix. I jam a couple nights a week at their open mics, and it can get hairy. I caught a couple diminished chords I wasn't expecting last time. That hurt for a second while I was going, "crap crap crap crap screw it root root root root..." :)

Theory is a pain. Yep. Math. But knowing it's very cool for songwriting. At least having it to the level that you can chew on a pick and go, "oo!", that's cool. Getting stuck on scalar theory can so easily destroy your music. Gotta use the ear first.

Meanwhile, I think intervalic theory's a must. At least for bassists.

Oh, check out Guitar Grimoire, Chords and Voicings. They have 'em at Guitar Center and most music stores. Some scary good stuff in there. My old (very very versed) guitarist nearly had an accident while flipping through the pages. So I got it for his birthday.

The guy has DVD's too. Scales and modes one was really good. He has an awesome take on modal theory.

Anyhoo, just streakin :) Killer thread!

-johnl

Hey, taphappy.
Welcome!
Hey - cool, another kindred spirit.
Glad you like the thread . . . I enjoyed reading your reply . . . .
Yeah, just one mis-placed diminished chord can make your eyes cross, huh?
I work with a bass-man once/twice a week, and sometimes when I'm showing a new song with a lot of chords (say 10 - 15 - 20), I show him the root on everything, just to get him started. You know: first you learn how the songs goes, then you can play with it . . .
But sometimes the chords are a little weird, and we find notes better than the root. And that can make for a real good song.
But, sometimes, what happens is even better.
Sometimes he finds himself struggling with what I'm showing him - it's just not 'clicking' That happens to all of us once in a while, I guess, huh?
Anyway, if I see that happen, I tell him - "Hey, just foget everything I showed you, The song's a little weird. But I know that you can play bass good, so foget everything I just showed you, and just fake it."
"Try coming up with your own stuff - something completely different."
And, for the next minute, it sounds terrible. But - after the experimenting is over: WOW!
Yeah! Man, that sounds GOOD. A LOT better than what I was showing you. Keep doing that!
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Sometimes we've gotta just forget A9 - D7 - E999, and shut down that half of our brains completely.
. . . and just FEEL the music . . .
When you play a right note, you know it. And that's good.
But - what can be even better, and more fun, is when you hit a WRONG note, and it fits even BETTER.
I think you know that note I'm talking about - it's the note that gives the song a different taste all of a sudden. It's the note that changes a song from vanilla to cherry-ripple.
Sometimes it's a note that can send tremors up and down your spine.
It's the neat note that you hit by accident, that makes everybodies' smilings faces swivel to look at you. And they say,"Hey, that was cool, do that again!"
That's when we act like we meant to do it that way, eh?

Well. My old guitarist's jazz teacher used to tell him for soloing, "If you hit a wrong note, hit it two more times. Then you meant to do it."

Probably heard him actually do that about 1000 times :)

This guitarist used to hand somebody in the audience a whistle during live gigs (instrumental music, kinda jazz/fusion/flamenco), and somebody else in the audience would pick a note...say, B. Whenever dude blows the whistle, everybody hits a B. In the middle of a song. Sometimes quite excessively, once whistle man gets nice and toasty.

So imagine you're playing Take 5 with lovely ol' D#m and D#11, and it's...

doo wap doo wap, doo wapwhistleNARF, doowhistleNARF wap doo wap, doowhistleNARFwap

But, absolutely, man. Know EXACTLY what you're talking about, and end up in the same position. I learn roots first so I understand what planet I'm on with what sort of gravitational field, then either write a bass line (something with a hook) or figure out what brings out the flavor of the chords. On the tricky stuff you're talking about, I'll have a guitarist go chord by chord, and spell it out to see what kind of options I have with neat passing tones.

If the guitar intervals are jumping up, I'm likely going down for the apex, and vice versa, or bouncing all over the place, or using different chords to make your ear hairs braid themselves...or sometimes using the bass to do what they did in the 80's with the wacky heavy metal harmony leads.

Gotta get creative when you play with a guy who knows his chordal theory really really well, and you go, "Whoa, wierd chord. What's the root?" and he gets this faraway look for a minute...says, "Huh."...then back to the faraway look...

Used to leave his apartment with the slightest hint of ozone coming out of my ears :)

-johnl

I know what you mean by that glazed look - I've had it a few times myself. Sometimes it takes me a moment to withdraw from the music into the 'real' world.
There's been several times when a guitarist or Bassman asks me 'what's that chord you're playing?'
. . . and all I can tell him is that it's a "toh" chord.

Yup, got glazed last night jamming with some new R&B guys. Great keyboardist, but I have enough problems reading keys visually when I'm sitting down playing 'em. Now I'm having to do it from the other side of the keyboard. ack!

Should be sweet, though. I love these little challenges.

Which is also why I don't get it when a musician claims to have hit a plateau. There's always so much you have to work on to make yourself a better player. In turn, these things inspire you to practice, to write, to develop new techniques...

Or maybe I'm a bit too much of a geek :)