General Music Chat

No offense taken at all Anthony,

I'm really just having difficulty wrapping my mind around the idea that the drummer is expected to have his own kit, anywhere from $400 to $1200 and up for a decent set, the bassist and guitarists need $750+ rigs, and even a keyboardist can easily drop $1500 on a nice set of keys and a decent amp.

And now I'm learning that we also need to bear the financial burden of the vocalists? Sure, we WANT to get a half decent PA system, it would benefit the band a great deal, but I always just assumed singers would have their own microphone/stand, at least a small amp, and their own effects or whatever else they felt they needed to perform.

Again, just having difficulty understanding it , like I said, I had always joined established bands and never took notice of ownerships, so I certainly can be of incorrect thought here, but I've yet to see a convincing argument (to me) on why a singer can't drop some $$ on his own gear.

Please, convince me.

I think the best approach is to stipulate that he has to supply his own mic (or mics) within a reasonable period of time. (If he passes audition.)

The cold hard facts are that great voices/singers are priceless. In most cases singers get away with murder because they 'can', and you just have to hope that they are committed to the cause and make the best of it.
Anyone can learn to play guitar reasonably well, drop $500 and be a team player, but a great voice is a mostly god-given thing.
If you're looking to land someone exceptional, keep your options open. Ya never know what might show up.

I hope you find greatness.

I think the best approach is to stipulate that he has to supply his own mic (or mics) within a reasonable period of time. (If he passes audition.)

The cold hard facts are that great voices/singers are priceless. In most cases singers get away with murder because they 'can', and you just have to hope that they are committed to the cause and make the best of it.
Anyone can learn to play guitar reasonably well, drop $500 and be a team player, but a great voice is a mostly god-given thing.
If you're looking to land someone exceptional, keep your options open. Ya never know what might show up.

I hope you find greatness.

Ok so thats a compelling argument.. sad.. but compelling.

But why would a singer, without a band, be expected to provide what is often the most expensive part of the band? (yes, I know some of you f*ckers can afford $5000.00 guitars and amps. LOL)

These days, most decent sized venues have their own sound system and engineer. You can be successful and play out without owning a PA. For practice, either don't use one, or get the vocalist to invest in a small self-contained PA, which can be had for under $500 bucks.

If this was an issue, your ads should say so. Don't expect that a singer should own his own full PA. It is not the norm.

I agree on the self-contained PA, that's what I was getting at. I also don't expect a singer to put out that kind of cheese on a PA for $5,000. It would just show some kind of commitment to the project other than showing up if they would buy some of their own equipment. I must also agree with several other views about finding the "right" singer, but that could end up being frustrating as usual.

On the last note: Craig: Some people have more bills than you could imagine, even with sponsors...it just depends on what you're all about brother...

DAMMMMMMMIT, thats it ....Im going to the airport..BUT, I dont know which city I wanna fly to first N -S- E or W and straighten you guys out... ...Lets please look at the long haul here boys..Now its safe to say the Kramer will be playin 10yrs from now..He'll wish 100 times over that he'd bought PA gear during that period.Now you vets out there KNOW this to be true....Some old beat up SP1s, and 12 CH baord CS800,and some beat ta crap monitors would be a start?...I know Kramer it seems unfair...A long time I got by with just drums, everything was provided for me...My experiences with shared expenses involving PA gear have been BAD..Seen ALOT freindships end..Circumstances, people, change often beyond anyones control..And remember ,EVERYONE uses the PA...

Just tryin to drive my point home in a helpful way...

John

The difference between instrumentalists and vocalists is quite simply this...


A vocalist carries his instrument with him. A drummer or guitarist, of course, cannot perform without their instruments. The voice "IS" a vocalist's instrument. He brings his instrument when he shows up.

There is nothing wrong with stipulating that a vocalist who wants to join, should have a small to medium PA because you guys don't have one. But this should be stated upfront, or you won't see it happen most likely.

But you don't really want a small PA do you?

A good band, expecting to play medium to large clubs or private events, and get paid for it, should have a medium to large PA. The PA is for the entire band, not merely the vocalist. If the guitarist and bass player, etc... have the most massive amps in the world, it will not necessarily help the band on stage. The sound projects outward and expands. On stage, your guitarist can be loud as hell to himself, cause he is standing in front of his amp, but the bass player on the other side of the stage might not be able to hear him at all, or very little, over his own amp, which is right behind him as well. So the amps are either mic'ed or done line out, into the PA, so that the sound is not only balanced, but also comes back to the stage through the monitors, so the band can hear everything and everyone, and be able to play together coherently.

This is not even to mention the drummer. In a large venue, you will need 5 drum mics going through the PA just for him.

I mean, we can close our eyes and fly like Luke Skywalker with the power of the force, and follow our instincts and maybe be in time still, but screw that. I want to hear everyone, and know we are gelling well, and in time and in sync and in pitch together.

Unless it is a cafe type gig, you want a powerful PA, for the ENTIRE band. And that should not be the vocalist's responsibility.


Here is an example of a package deal PA for a reasonable price. The powered mixer is made by Behringer, which there are horror stories against, but also people who are very happy with their products, so it may be hit or miss, but if you are on a budget, they have the cheapest stuff around, price wise.

This package comes from www.AmericanMusical.com which the great thing about them, is that you can pay with a credit card and divide a large purchase into 3 or 5 payments. So, maybe you don't have the 2 grand for this PA, but with a credit card, you can pay $400.00 a month instead.

With decent amps, this PA would be acceptable for medium sized venues.

http://www.americanmusical.com/Item--i-AMS-PAPK-6A

On the last note: Craig: Some people have more bills than you could imagine, even with sponsors...it just depends on what you're all about brother...

Yeah, I'm one of those poor people! LOL

I tried to convince Bill Gates that I was his love child come back to reunite. It didn't work well at all. He was really nice though.... well... he was, once I was handcuffed and put in the back of the police car.

Yeah, I'm one of those poor people! LOL

I tried to convince Bill Gates that I was his love child come back to reunite. It didn't work well at all. He was really nice though.... well... he was, once I was handcuffed and put in the back of the police car.

You are a VERY cool dude bro! Now that's hillarious man. The way I see it is that deep debt is a bad thing unless it deals with music. We are all in the same boat going down the same river and we all seem to spend maybe more than we should on our gear, but in our hearts it's the right thing to do...

It is the band's responsibility to have the PA if a singer is auditioning for the band. If the singer wanted to start his/her own band he/she would be expected to supply the PA. In the real world you would be lucky if the singer showed up with a mic.

I really dont have a dog in this hunt but I'm a nosey bastard.
I bought the PA equipment for our band because I want for US to succede. Even if this band (God forbid) was to self destruct, I as a guitarist want every possable opportunity to continue to play in a band.
That was my justification for the > $2500 I laid on the line (not counting my guitar and amps) Yet I disagree in part with Craig, Yes the singer's voice may be his instrument, and if he can sing over my 1200 watt+ system, then he can leave his mic at home. Maybe first audition. But at number two, Mic, Stand, Cables, Effects, Music stand and by golly mouth wash if he needs it. If I show up at his studio, Is he going to have a $1000 Strat and a amp for me? Hell no.

???

I never showed up anywhere without at least my own mic.

If you don't like how others do it, you better have the where-with-all to have your own stuff. I.e> I had a crap (reads vintage) PA since the dawn of time.

What was that about the drummer? (LOL) I never met a drummer that didn't at least have a sears and roebuck drum set. (More often than not, a good drummer makes anything sound good and a lousy drummer can even find a way to ruin what's coming out of a really wonderful set.)

Having a PA is great. Having something worthwhile coming out of a PA is better and having an extra PA to use in a pinch is even better.

AMEN! Service dismissed.

The way I see it is that deep debt is a bad thing unless it deals with music. We are all in the same boat going down the same river and we all seem to spend maybe more than we should on our gear, but in our hearts it's the right thing to do...

You said it brother!

I've always thought it funny that musicians are famous for being poor, and yet we have one of the most expensive hobbies there is. LOL

Yet I disagree in part with Craig, Yes the singer's voice may be his instrument, and if he can sing over my 1200 watt+ system, then he can leave his mic at home. Maybe first audition. But at number two, Mic, Stand, Cables, Effects, Music stand and by golly mouth wash if he needs it.

Mouthwash! LMAO!

Hey we don't disagree, I think I mentioned that unless he is new to the game, a vocalist who has some experience would likely have at least a good mic, and that would be a "potential" sign, that he is serious about what he does.

When I was coming along many years ago, I always wanted my own kick-ass PA, simply because that almost insured that you could collect bandmates, but back then I could not afford one. Hell, right now I can't afford one. Why does life have to be so damn cyclical!!!! LOL

As far as effects, these days, those come standard with any mixing board, and they are usually pretty good. Technology has come a long way. You'll still see rack effects that cost a fortune, and are killer, but that is for those with the money to do it big.

If you are in a band that doesn't have other voices, there are some really cool pedal boards for vocalists now, that like a guitarist can be triggered, for either harmonies or effects, like echo-delays, etc... They can be had for $200 bucks, and are fun toys for those that want a little oomph and don't trust the club's sound man to give it to them.

Speaking of sound men...

A $20 dollar tip before a performance can work wonders guys. I learned that decades ago. Whether you can afford a little tip or not, give the sound man a shout out from the stage...

"We are Southern Mischief, and we're thrilled to be here tonight, but before we start, we just want everyone to give a round of applause to Charlie the sound man over there.... these guys have a thankless job lots of times, but they are as important as the band is, cause without them, no one sounds good up here... so give it up for Charlie! .... Hey Charlie, thanks brother, we appreciate what you guys do for us!"

That almost insures that you get good and attentive sound, cause after that, it embrasses them if they make you sound like sh*t!!!

Trust me, if you don't get superior sound after that, NOTHING you could do or pay would give it to you, from that particular sound man. It would mean he is just a sh*tty sound guy!

But it works. Try it.

Needless to say, introduce yourself to the sound man and get his name BEFORE you go on stage.

A little solid advice from a music veteran. LOL

good advice craig, never though about that much.