General Music Chat

Hey Gang,

I have an old Arbor les paul copy that Im borrowing to do some tracking.I havent own an electirc guitar in years so I havent been used to setting them up etc..I cleaned this thing up ,put new strings and pick ups on and when I went to set the intonation, the saddles of the B and high E are fwd as far as they can go and Im still flat...Yeah , the saddles ARE turned around to where they are allowing for the most fwd position...The neck relief is about 015-020 at the 7th fret with the normal action...I cant play past the 10 fret or so unless I tune sharp..Have to do 2 seperate tracks..Can I "Buy" any sharpness to those strings by increasing /decreasing the relief?..Raising/lowering the action at the bridge?..Like to hear some of yalls set up techniques and advice if ya dont mind..

Thanks,
John

I had the same problem setting up a les paul copy, and oddly enough, I turned the peg and took it about 75% back towards the stoptail, and bam, perfect intonation.

I know it goes against the laws of physics, but... I dunno, it worked.

r u using a genuine strobe tuner? (not just a real accurate tuner)
-this will often give conflicting results

couple things you can try if you are really still having issues...
thicker gage strings will increase distance... smaller gage will decrease it.
if you are flat... use a smaller gage. (note this will have minimal results)

it could be that the groove in the actual saddle is worn to where it is making contact with the string in a spot that is further back from norm so it will be flat... try replacing the individual saddle.

you could try getting a little more 'fudge room' by setting the action lower (if possible)... lower action = less distance = increase pitch.

how does the nut height look? take a chisel, knock the nut off, sand it down on the bottom side, glue back in w 2 drops super glue. this can raise pitch (if not done in conjunction with lowering the bridge...)

pickups can actually raise the pitch if too close to the string but you aren't having a sharp problem so...

is this a 'bolt on' les paul? if so, it may be that the neck has moved in the neck pocket and you may need to take strings off, loosen neck bolts, push the neck towards the body and re-tighten... in extreme issues you can sand the neck butt and this will be enough to do the job... but this is a "last resort".

good luck.
mv

Kramer is absolutely correct. It may not make any sense, but don't try to make sense of it and just try it because I've done the same thing for people over the years and it worked perfectly. Don't mess with the nut though as I have a USA Custom Shop Jackson Dinky that I thought had a worn nut and was ready to try to shim it, then I called Jackson's Custom Shop back up and they said to NEVER mess with the nut, but rather use intonation and the bridge adjustments to fix issues such as this. I listened to them and now the axe is as good as new. Hope this helps man...

I can pretty much guarantee you moving the peg back will not solve the problem. It will lengthen the string... this is not rocket-science or voodoo... if the dist between the bridge and 12th fret gets longer (ie if you move the saddle back) you WILL flatten the intonation. FACT.... period... end of story.
If you move the saddle forward you WILL sharpen the string. FACT... period... end of story.

If you are checking your intonation with a sabine, boss, korg or other "standard" tuner then you are wasting your and my time. get a strobe.

The fact that you got the correct result tells me either A. you didn't have a string that was "flat" in the first place or B. you were using a crappy tuner and getting a result that you were misinterpreting as correct intonation.

believe me or don't believe me... I really don't care... but I am telling you the truth for the sake of telling you the truth. Don't take my word for it, go ask any professional guitar repair-man and he will confirm what I have said.

You may also try dancing around in a circle and saying "magic mumbo jumbo" and you may stumble upon the correct result... but don't conclude that this dance had anything to do with correcting the issue.

http://www.wikihow.com/Set-Your-Guitar's-Intonation

the above link is a good run down on how to set intonation... lot of good tips here like "don't push the string down too hard or pick it too hard cause this will adjust the pitch"... "as you adjust each string re-tune the entire guitar... as an adjustment will change how the neck sits and may make a difference"...
etc.

PS - COPY AND PAST THE ABOVE LINK... THE SINGLE QUOTE IS SCREWING IT UP (PROBABLY NEED AN ESCAPE CHARACTER).

Use this URL to get to the same page:

http://xrl.us/bkiaf


The apostrophe is messing the URL up.

In a case like this, go to a free URL re-direction (shorten) service and get a new URL for the page, like I did with the one above.

To make your own URL's go here:

http://www.metamark.net/


btw... Thanks for posting the link.

The fact that you got the correct result tells me either A. you didn't have a string that was "flat" in the first place or B. you were using a crappy tuner and getting a result that you were misinterpreting as correct intonation.

Dude, I use an oldschool analog tuner with a physical needle. I don't know what else you would call it, but digital tuners are rarely accurate and I can find low E better with my ear.

Outside of that, I don't mind if you want to disagree with me, but I just did that intonation 3 weeks ago and it's still fresh in my memory. It made no sense to flip the peg and increase the distance, but in the end, the intonation became perfect. In the grand scheme of this problem KIDD is having, and some of the unbelievably difficult solutions, my suggestion is quick and effortless, and at least worth a shot. I'd personally rather try that first, rather than start sanding the neck or taking a chisel and knocking the nut off...

I don't understand why you feel the need to react so strongly about it.

Kramer it's cool bro because I think the shots were directed at me. Seriously guys, we're all trying to help out a friend here and the fact that we got different results only shows that there's more than one way to skin a cat. To be honest most of my life I had others do all the work for me as well as the recording end of things so I'm no professional tech dude or recording dude by any way shape or form, but I am a professional player.

What Craig and MisterMike recommend is the proper way to go about it rather than the easy way, but both will work. The part about NEVER shimming the nut in any (whether up or down) can be argued by the dudes at the Jackson Custom Shop & the Guitar Asylum for giving me the same information. I trust them both.

We're all on the same page, just different paragraphs. It's all cool brothers and I really hope that The Kidd can decifer all of this craziness.

Hey Gang,

Dang, Id better jump in here.. First off, thanks to everyone for their
replies and going in lots detail to make your points...I havent had a chance to try anything yet..I went way long in teaching tonite..
The flat intonation is noticable by ear so any meter will be useless till I can get it in the ball park..Yeah , in theory I know whats supposed to happen and thanks Mr Mike for going into detail..I will try everything you suggested...It has a BRASS NUT..AND on the other hand, Ive seen strange things happen like Kramer was eluding to..LOL...Thanks for the links also...With all this info, Im sure WE'll get this crazy thing noting right...Yeah , Mike, the grooves ARE inconsistant from saddle to saddle. .Not the best lookin bridge /saddle set up....Anyway, Ill get to work tomorrow and let yall know what I find...

Thanks again ,
John

1. A chisel will destroy the nut, if it must be removed, use a small wood block. A good whack with a hammer toward the tuners should do it. Use a sharp hobby knife to score the finish tight against the nut on the tuner side, so the finish won't crack when the nut is removed.

2. Only glue on the end of the fingerboard, NO glue under or behind the nut. It will easily pop off the end grain of the fingerboard if future repairs are necessary, same method, sharp whack with a wood block toward the tuners. Super glue is acceptible, I prefer wood glue, I avoid super glue around guitars if possible.

** I don't think nut height is the problem here, it's flat, not sharp. Nut height would be a possible issue if it were pulling sharp consistently on the first few frets, nut would be too high. Flat at the octave should have little if anything to do with the nut.

3. Take a close look at the bridge. could it be sitting backwards? Usually the screws face the tailstop. Whichever side they are on, see if they might have more travel if the bridge is reversed on the pegs.

4. A wide throw bridge is available, I put one on my Lotus LP copy years ago for this same reason, $30 or so and it was good to go. Nothing else would get that guitar in tune.

***Good point already made about saddles, slot position could be an issue.

5. I can't remember if Arbor is a bolt on neck, but if it is, a toothpick tip strategically placed in each neck bolt hole will lenghten or shorten the neck enough to affect intonation, and if the neck is the slightest bit loose, I won't even try intonation until that is fixed, usually toothpicks to tighten the wallowed out screwholes is needed. Careful placement will move the neck toward or away from the bridge, a shim made from a medium triangular guitar pick placed against the pickup side of the neck pocket will help hold it there better if it needs to be lengthened. If it's already tight against the pocket, overall length can't be shortened unless some sanding is done on either neck or pocket. some already have shims, remove it if one is there. Carefully tighten the strings lightly, then tighten the neck down while the strings pull it into the pocket. (this assumes leaving it snug but not completely tight beforehand.)

*** Those neck pocket screws are the reason I NEVER push on the neck and pull on the body to make a whammy bar effect. They wallow out every time without that added punishment. The whammy trick only compounds an already inherent weakness.

6. Plenty import guitars have been made with the bridge posts mislocated. It only takes a 64th of an inch to cause a lot of headaches...Off center posts can be ok at one spot then short or long a half turn away.

7. Dead strings. I've seen brand new strings, right out of the box impossible to intonate. In a couple of cases I've had some sharp, some flat...weird...

8. Are the bridge posts leaning? I've seen that too. Occasionally it's possible to use something as a shim in loose threads to make the posts lean either direction you need. The grommets may be loose or leaning, tap the side you want to lean to with a wood block, as if trying to seat it better but only on one side. If they can be moved that's a more tedious repair...drill, dowel plug, redrill, repress...same for mislocated posts.

I can't think of anything else...

"I don't understand why you feel the need to react so strongly about it." -I'm not offended at all. I just cut to the quick.

The "compicated fixes" I mentioned above were meant as last ditch efforts. If a guitar truly is still flat when the saddle is all the way forward... then there is a defect in the bridge or the guitar itself. This can be corrected with the methods above.
The only method I would recommend to a novice: get a strobe tuner(analog OR digital) and quite jacking around with anything but.
It is quite unlikely that the guitar itself has a defect... so I must assume the next most likely option... that you have a standard guitar tuner and are getting mixed results.
If you are telling me that you can do this by ear... then why are you using a tuner at all?

"Nut height would be a possible issue if it were pulling sharp consistently on the first few frets, nut would be too high."
FOA - I wanna thank you pete, you made me sit and think about this for a minute.
Imagine the nut and bridge as parallel lines extending upward... and the string as a perpendicular line intersecting both parallels...
if the nut was high... and the nut end of the string was north of parallel, lowering the nut would bring it closer to parallel -shortening the length between the nut and the 12th fret. If the nut end was south of parallel, lowering it would actually increase the length...
truly - lowering the nut could have either effect in these cases... and I've been thinking about this all morning (what a waste of time, I know).

ONCE AND FOR ALL, I DO NOT RECOMMEND REMOVING THE NUT...

I guess the whole voodoo comment was a bit much, sorry about that.

I MEAN YOU NO HARM.

May be easer and less stressfull to buy or borrow another guitar me thinks.

Hey Gang,

Actually guys, I dont even OWN a tuner...Never have..I do have near perfect pitch...Aint braggin ..just a fact..Actually its more of a curse than blessing.. .I shoulda mentioned that I DID STROBE this thing at the music store a day after I put strings on it and it the intonation "SEEMED" perfect...NOW, the first few days I had it , I didnt play much up the neck...WHEN, I started creatin a break for a tune , THATS when I notice my B&E strings noting flat past the 10th fret...Yeah guys, untill I "tear" into this thing WE wont really know what Im facing..BUT, Im armed with some great knowledge thanks to you guys...The "freindly" debates Ive started are healthy and helpful as well...I hope others can benifit...Sans, if your gonna ship me a guitar, I only like les pauls now.. .Actually, the guy I borrowed this from has about 60 guitars..NO KIDDIN.. ..AND I HAD TO GET A LEMMON... OK OK , Im gittin on it...Be back later with a diagnosis..(hopefully)..

John

"new sh1t has come to light man, there's a lot of ins and outs running around in the duderinos head..."

given the new info... (strobed out ok)... it could be...
the gtr neck adjusted to the room humidity and temp and this caused it to go out of wack - so tweaking the neck back into place should correct it.

this guitar was taken well before it's time... like so many of our youth - face down in the mud at sai pan...