General Music Chat

That is really really sad. I think they deserve jail.

We agree?

Paul.... we agree!

PAUL!!!!!

PAUL!!!! WE AGREEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!

Eh...I can afford to disagree...my son is grown, & doing very well for someone of his age. (We only were blessed with the one child.)

Can't honestly remember ever having slapped him, nor do I think his mother ever did. I do think, though, that there would be one helluvalot less disrespect in our youth in this country, if more ppl did discipline thier children physically.

I did pick him up by his throat & toss him onto his back, once, for showing disrespect to his mother, when he was 16, before he had a chance to think about what was going on. Then I calmly asked him if he'd like to try it again. Seemed to have worked. He apologised & we went on with our day. Once was all it took.

This is not to say that I was a violent parent, as bad as that example may look to you. As he was growing up, there was very little corporal punishment in our household. He wasn't spanked weekly or monthly or even yearly, for that matter.

But a child needs to know that. while he/she will move out one day, the parental unit is supposed to be forever, & neither parent will ever allow that anyone show disrespect to the other in thier own presence. Just my view, & I feel no need to defend it.

When it comes to his own safety, I once did "publicly embarass"/degrade him, too.

He was 13. He had gone joyriding with a neighbor kid who was 17, who had just bought an unsafe car. They had had an accident, & my son's face went through the windshield, & nearly into a tree. Of course I hadn't known about thier actions until I got a call from my wife at a gig I was playing, around midnight. Seems he had jumped out his bedroom window & even my wife hadn't known he was out.

A few days later, after I had grounded him, I came home early from work & found him walking over to that other kid's house after school.

I pulled up, got out & beat the heck out of him in front of the other boy. I warned the other boy that if I saw him with my son again, that he (the other boy) would get far worse than this. I think the fact that my son was still really sore after that accident helped to kinda pound that little lesson home.

Looking back on it, I guess I would have looked kinda nutso to anyone who had bothered to look, but I didn't care. The proof is in the pudding, however. I never had any such problems again with my son.

While this may look like abuse, I maintain that it was proper discipline, for me & mine. Yes, considering the parameters of the situation, & knowing what I know now, I would do it again, even though he must have been "degraded" & humiliated by the experience.

Extreme problems call for extreme measures. I still think that my actions went much farther than they would have had I just said "I am so disaappointed in you" at the time. Woulda made me look & sound like a weak lil soccer mom instead of a vengeful & "dangerous" father. There are times it's called for, imo.

Still, I would nave been arrested for either instance, & I think it would have been wrong for both my son AND his family, if I had been.

This is not to say that I was a violent parent

I see what you mean. Picking a child up by his throat and throwing him down is not very violent at all. LOL

A few days later, after I had grounded him, I came home early from work & found him walking over to that other kid's house after school.

I pulled up, got out & beat the heck out of him in front of the other boy.

I'm not sure that beating him and embarrassing him in front of the other boy was the best solution. While I understand the anger, it could have had the effect of just convincing the other boy or anyone else watching that you were an asshole and no wonder the kid was trying to run out of the house all the time. Sometimes that only has the power of solidifying the rebellion and pushing him further into bad relationships?

I think I would have talked to the other parents about all of it, and see if they were cooperative, in being on the same page where the boys were concerned? If not, they could have been threatened themselves with jail for contributing to the delinquency of a minor, or whatever charges could apply. I also likely would have found a subtle way to "inform" this other father, that if I found out his boy was with my boy, that I would be coming after him (the father).

Times have changed, and many things are in a gray area. It's not always easy to know what's best as a parent.

I know, that my oldest step-son would rather an ass-whipping, because he has learned that the pain fades and it's all over quickly enough. What he can't stand is a lecture. So I lecture him now. For a half hour, an hour. I make him sit up every time he tries to rest on his elbow or something, and make him sit up straight and look me in the eye, and answer my questions, etc... Kids are individuals, and you have to use what works best for each one. Another boy has a girlfriend and I'll ground him from her for long periods. I never get much trouble from him at all with that threat. The daughter is only 8, and she gets grounding with no TV, but quite a bit of leniency because of her age, but she is getting old enough to understand what is going on, why it is wrong, and "remember" for the next time, so leniency is getting less and less with her now.

While this may look like abuse, I maintain that it was proper discipline, for me & mine. Yes, considering the parameters of the situation, & knowing what I know now, I would do it again, even though he must have been "degraded" & humiliated by the experience.

Look, we grew up in a different time. Some would say "better" but that is selective memory. It wasn't "better" just different. Some things may have been better then, but many other things are better now, such as civil rights for minorities, more equality for women in the workplace, etc...

I like the move away from violence in the home bro. Defend violence all you want, but honestly, isn't it better to create a new culture of solving issues at home WITHOUT violence? It was not long ago, when police just let wives get beat up, often to death, becaue it was a "domestic" issue. These days, if there are marks on someone, you get arrested. Marks on both? Both get arrested. At least on Cops they do. LOL

Extreme problems call for extreme measures.

Well, let's say that...

Serious problems call for serious solutions or serious corrective measures. And that does not necessarily have to involve violence, where someone else's life or welfare is not at risk, like self-defense measures.

Don't assume that because violence is quick and to the point, that it is the best solution. Maybe another solution would require more involvement or a longer time period, but in the end, it may be better than teaching the idea, that violence is the best solution. Put them to work. Many communities have programs where a kid can take a tour of a prison and talk to the inmates and sometimes get a wake up call as they scare the sh*t out of them about what prison life is really like. There are boot camps. Get them a part-time job, to help keep them busy and maybe learn responsibility and how to work.

And you know, alot of what we are talking about is "after the fact" stuff. What about prevention? What about instilling values in them BEFORE? And not shady values that we as adults don't live up to, but actually following our own value system as an example to them?

I had a group of kids and young adults over here the other day, and some were friends of me and my wife, and others were friends of the kids, and we were all watching Cops, and some woman was lying dead on the ground, and it was a little shocking, cause they didn't blur anything out. You saw the blood runninig from her head all over the concrete. She had been shot, point blank to the head, and was gone forever.

A 21 year old in the group saw that, and smiled and yelled "Pwned!" (well, OWNED, but that is the lingo in text, with the "P") and all the kids laughed their asses off.

I turned off the TV, and in a very firm voice, started in on them all...

"You know what? You guys think that comment was funny? I don't think it's funny at all! That woman was someone's sister, someone's daughter, and judging from her age, someone's mother!"

I looked at my wife's kids and said "What if that was your mother? What if that comment was being made right now, and it turned out to be YOUR mother? Still funny?... what about you? Or you? If that was your sister how would it feel? Still funny?"

And I began to tell them how f*cked up I saw this generation of kids and young adults, with their insensitivity to violence. I told them I had been watching on the news where these girls beat the sh*t out of some other girl, to the point of causing a concusion and eyesight loss which was ongoing, weeks after the incident, and all this, just to post it on YouTube and impress their stupid friends, who bought into such bullsh*t!

I told them I saw an epidemic in how they thought about such violence, but that if they were the victim, they would see it much differently.

I asked them if that was the kind of people they really were. "Is that what your life is going to be known for? Is that the mark you will make in this world? It's easy to be a baaaaa baaaaa sheep. Nothing is easier than that. Is that who you respect? Do you respect the sheep, or those that make their own way? When you watch movies, who do you admire? The guys that follow the leader, or the heroes that take a stand, and do something different, no matter what it costs them?"

Of course they answered, the hero.

So what are you saying? That you will amount to nothing in your own life? That you will be no better than the losers that you mock in movies, and are happy when they get their comeuppance. That's who you are becoming, and yet, you just admitted that you don't respect those kinds of people.

I told them they needed to begin to think about who they are, and who they will be. I told them that we are all born as blank slates, that we paint our own canvases, and we can be whoever we want to be. We aren't born heroes. We aren't born losers. We are born as blank slates, and WE CHOOSE, especially the older we get, what that painting will look like. Who we will become and what our lives will be known for.

I told them that there were no shortage of kids on the path to being the best loser they can be, and no shortage of parents who will excuse them for it, and let them run, not even walk, down that path to nowhere. Is that what your lives will be? Is that really what you choose for yourselves? Because it really IS your choice. And the actions you choose right now, every single day, even when no one else is looking, and especially, when no one else is looking.... it is THOSE actions that are forming your personality and belief system right now. It will mold who you are, what you believe, and what your life will be about. I told them we needed more kids to be heroes. We needed the kids that had the courage to stop a beating when they saw it being filmed for YouTube, or to get that person help.

And I told them that idiots who are only looking for more sheep, may mock them for their right choices, but I told them that inside, whether they admit it or not.... EVERYONE respects a person who is true to their values. People like hanging out with idiots, but in the darkest and most desperate moments of their lives, who will they turn to?

They all answered me "the honest ones" "The ones with courage" "the ones they trust and believe in"

I told them that this was true.

I told them "My own step-kids may tell their friends that I am jerk, or even that they hate me cause they didn't get their way that week, but ask them sometime, who it is they trust most in their lives, ask them when I am not around, to be honest, and tell you that if they are afraid, or feel threatened, who do they trust, who do they want around, who do they know absolutely in their hearts, would trade his own life to protect them without even thinking about it."

Even though I asked them to do it later, all my wife's kids just pointed at me, in front of everyone else. Then the middle child said "He tells us the truth, and he has never lied to us. He would never let anything happen to us."

I told the group, "See? I'm an outsider. I'm not dad and I'm not mom. I'm someone who came out of nowhere. I don't have as much history with them, even as some of you, and certainly not as much as their parents and grandparents, but you just heard, who they trust most. Who they believe will tell them the absolute truth. Who they most trust to protect them."

I said "That is what being true to good character buys you."

I told them "I learned a long time ago not to worry or care about what others thought of me or said about me. The truth comes out eventually, and even if it didn't, I KNOW what I am about, and God knows what I am about, and that will always be enough. That gives me more security in myself than anyone else's praise ever could. I am a man who knows who I am, and knows what he believes, and works very hard to live his beliefs. People, even if they think they don't like you for whatever reasons they have, will ALWAYS at the least, respect that about you.

I told them that my wife's own family has been through love and hate with me, and back and forth, through the years. But now, even they will call me for advice, because it is unavoidable, that they have seen me be consistent over the years, no matter what they did, or how they felt about me at that time, and they now know in their souls, what kind of person I am.

I told them that these things are EARNED over time. What about them? Is that the kind of respect you want for your own life?

Then make the choices that create that kind of life for yourselves.

The amazing thing was, that there were kids in different places, who had all been joking around, standing in different places and in different rooms, and one by one, well before the end of this talk, they had all come over and sat on the couch or the floor in front of me, in complete silence, and utterly hanging on every word.

I pointed this out as well...

"See there? No one made everyone sit over here, it just happened. In your hearts, in everyone's hearts, we are all drawn to the truth, even when it is unpopular in culture at the moment."

They were starved for it bro.

One wonders whether many people in their own lives sat down with them like that, and expressed the truth, from a position of authority. Not the authority of force, but the authority of a life that bears the words out.

I didn't have to use any violence. They were drawn to the message like moths to a light. They were hungry for it. Hungry for someone to tell them the truth.

I told them "I care about each and every one of you. I want to see your lives matter. The world has too much chaos, you don't need to bring more. You need to be the people that help balance it out. That can make a real difference in this world."

They all said they wanted to be that kind of person.

So, yeah, I am verbose, this response is verbose, but just as I saw an opportunity to make a difference in those kids lives, using a real-world example, so too, here, or anywhere else, do I hope that some of the things I have learned over the journey of a life, can make a difference for someone. Can give them a different, and hopefully better, way of seeing their lives, and the difference it can make.

I share because I care.

And what I hope, what I pray, is that enough of us, together, can make a difference. My heart and prayers tell me, the world is headed for some seriously dark days before the next five years are up, and probably within the next several. And if those days occur, the world will need voices of reason and compassion and truth.

Even a single voice, when speaking the truth, is far more powerful than our normally simple lives would suggest. History is replete with sometimes a single voice, a single idea, changing the course of history, altering culture in profound ways, either for good or for ill.

Words matter.

They are often far more powerful than we give them credit for.

Different strokes, man.

I had spoken to the other boy's father, both before & after the wreck, & again, with his son present, before I found him with my son that last time.

The continued violations of this household's rules were what resulted in the corporal punishment, & my son was very aware of that fact.

The other boy joined the service at 18, was ousted, eventually became a petty criminal, & then a minor felon. Imo, his parents' leiniency contributed to his delinquency. He had gone through all of the psychologists & psychiatrists & whatnot, as his parents followed the more modern guidelines of parenting, doing all they can within the system's guidelines. What a huge mistake!

My son & I had several chats about the situation afterward. Believe me, the message got through on several levels, not just violent ones.

As I said, these were the only two times after my son left elementary school that there was any form of corporal punishment, & I feel no need to defend my actions. Scoff as much as you wish about my claims of being a basically non-violent parent. Your assessment of my methods makes no difference in how I feel about myself, my son, our past, & or whether or not they worked for us. (Obviously, if I felt the slightest bit ashamed of my actions, I'd not have posted them here to be judged by this community.)

My son has never been violent, to my knowledge. He's had plenty of minor problems as a result of his own actions, like any other young adult, but he's always managed to stay out of trouble (far better than his father did at the same age). He's held a good job for 4 1/2 yrs, has held only two jobs in his life, having started to work at the age of 16, & is in the process of applying for a change of job & a promotion in his corporation. (I won't tell you what I was doing at his age, but believe me, it wasn't anything like this.)

I firmly believe that nearly all of the things I did as a parent were by far better, yes, BETTER than that which I grew out of, & my son is probably a better man than I was at his age because of it.

He turns 25 in a cpl weeks, & I couldn't be happier with him if he were running for prez. He's a man of honor, a man of respect, spirituality, wit & hard work, & has overcome a mild case of CP, as well, to become the man he is today.

I feel honored to have contributed in his development, & have told him so on more than one occasion. We are very close, now that he's grown, & he still comes to me for advice when he thinks he needs it. He also goes to his mother for some things.

We've been very blessed just to have had him in our lives, & I wouldn't change a thing, no matter how the gov't or you or the local head shrinker would feel about some of my actions as a parent.

Nor am I saying that my way is the only way that works. There were probably a myriad ways of handling these & many other situations that we've faced as father & son. Some may have been better than others. I make no claim that I am the world's best dad. There have been plenty of times that I had doubts, lost countless hours of sleep, & had long drawn-out convos & arguments with my wife on how best to handle things as he grew. I made my share of mistakes, surely, but somehow we managed to overcome them as a family.

Violence was actually quite a rare thing in my household, as a father, while it was quite the norm in my household as a child. While my son knew that if there was violence involved in his discipline, it meant that the degree of his trespass was huge, I had no such knowledge, for it was so commonplace as I grew up.

I believe that this distinction certainly helped in his development, but it's just a personal theory, I will grant you. I will also say that, for me, my wife & son, our ways have worked out very well, so far.

There is no instruction manual that gets stamped on a baby. You do the best you can, within the confines of your intelligence, your creativity, your religious views, & your personal experiences as a child. That is why I can be perhaps a bit "liberal" when ppl flook up so badly as they seek out new ways of raising thier own, as long as thier hearts are in it for all the right reasons. I find that I often have to make even more allowances as time goes by, because our gov't, our schools, & our medical professionals have each contributed to such stupid ways of raising kids that children today are lucky to have any real values at all, or even brain cells that work properly, as they grow. (The most violent & disruptive & disobedient children that I have ever seen were most often brought up by psychiatrists, psychologists & ministers, or when the parents relied upon thier advice & treatments almost exclusively. I wonder why?)

I can perfectly understand your ire & anxious desire to see these horrible examples of parenthood locked up indefinitely. I, too, am shocked & outraged by it, but I can also understand, in my own slightly twisted way, how such things can & do happen. We as parents are constantly reminded that our parents' ways were all wrong, that we must always seek to reason with a child & we should follow guidelines & theories that have been proven to be wrong (thank you, Dr. Spock!), set up by ppl who don't even have children, more often than not. In many cases we blindly allow ourselves to be manipulated both by either the system &/or our own kids, today, & end up with less than satisfactory results in the next generation. Or we get this ridiculous situation where the parents do nothing when it is so obvious to the rest of us that action, nay, immediate action, is needed.

In closing, I would also say that, yes, if I were witness to such blind stupidity in parenting, that was obviously so dangerous to a child's welfare, & saw said child wasting away daily, I would have intervened...perhaps even with (GASP!) violence, to save that child.

I didn't mean for you to get the idea that I thought you were not a decent parent. I never thought that. We are playing with ideas of past vs present, of ideas for "better" parenting. And you are right. There is no instruction manual. Hopefully, in my mind, the goal is to improve on the former generation. I have done that, and it appears quite clearly that so have you. Let's pray that our own children (or step-children) see fit to accomplish the same goals.


btw... Just because you are not assessing corporal punishment, does not mean you are being "lenient". Perhaps "permissive" was a better adjective for those other parents?

I'm not lenient, by any means.

People have often criticized me lightly, because supposedly, when the children are not your natural children, then apparently, you are not supposed to be good at parenting that easily.

Well, they may not be mine by blood, but I am a pretty smart cookie, and I learn quickly, on the job!

One thing I decided from the beginning, and have tried to get "mom" to do, and which she is getting much better at, is... "Take a breath before you give them a warning about what their punishment will be, because if you don't do WHAT you say you will do, and don't do it WHEN you say you will do it, then they won't trust you, and the warning will be ineffective."

In other words, make sure the punishment is reasonable, and that you are willing to follow through on it, and then, if they commit the infraction again, do EXACTLY what you told them you would. Then, you can tell them, that they were aware of the consequences, they committed the infraction anyway, and so THEY are the ones that brought it on themselves, no one else.

This is one of the big lessons I try to instill in the kids. Life is a series of choices, good or bad. They will all bring consequences of one kind or another, and they have to live with those consequences, so choose wisely.

They used to walk all over the wife, but just as I promised her... "Kids aren't stupid. They are smart enough to learn how to work within a system to get, as best they can, the best benefit. So, if you allow "whining" to get them what they want, then that is what they will do. That becomes the system that works, and they'll do what works. So instead, be consistent. Do what you say, whether a reward or a punishment, and if you are consistent, it will only be a matter of weeks or months, before they realize there is no arguing or whining their way out of it. They will get what you say they will get. And they will begin to believe you, and suddenly, the warning will have the power of the punishment most of the time."

But I am glad you have a good relationship with your son. You have surely earned that through the years. Good for you!

Well, Craig, I hafta tell you, coming from your background & raising children that aren't your biological own - WOW! I don't envy you.

You have a whole 'nuther set of problems than what I had as a parent.

You have a history of different child-rearing practices to deal with, 1st & foremost. That is a huge issue when dealing with parenthood. You had to "ease in" your way of dealing with kid troubles, rather than dealing with them from birth. That's gotta be a tough one, & I'm glad I never had to deal with it.

You have had to be trained by your new spouse, & train her as well, in new ways of parenting for each of you.

You have the children's justifiable resentment at your intervention in thier lives after thier entire lifetimes of not having your ways in them.

You have had to walk on egg shells that I would rather not tread upon.

Gotta say that I admire the stuff you've accomplished, even if things are only 1/2 as good as you claim. These new familial situations can be beyond my ability to comprehend, & create so many more problems as new parents get involved while old ones are still present, if only on the weekends, who may or may not interfere with the new ways you are trying to establish for your new ready-made family.

I've seen so many situations like yours where things went so wrong so fast it destroyed the new parental unit in mere weeks or a few months.

I can also see how your different ways would work so much better in such a situation, than my own would. Your way is one of the few that could work for it. I will freely admit that bringing in corporal punishment into your situation, esp if it did not exist before, could not work, & would most likely end with you in jail, should you apply it where it was never used before.

One thing that seems to be in your favor, is that evidently no serious developmental damage has been done prior to your entrance into the family. That, too, is pretty rare, & you should thank your lucky stars for that. (If I'm wrong in this guess, I apologise. You haven't mentioned it, though.)

Getting your wife to stick to her guns on punishments after deliberating on them is the smartest thing you could have done, if that had been a problem for her & the children in the past.

One of the toughest things I had to deal with as a father was when my wife wouldn't back up or follow through on punishments. As our son grew, I, too, eventually had to set him aside, often, to wait for a punishment until after I had deliberated over it with my wife, then frequently I had to remind her to follow through on it all, no matter what. I still maintain, however, that there are times when immediate action & corporal action are perfectly justified, for ppl who don't have your more specialized problems in raising other ppl's children.

I also wouldn't say you are more leinient or permissive than I, Craig, just different. Both of our ways seem to be working, & that's the most important thing.

Yep, I agree. You are a pretty smart cookie.

Good going.

Oh, the kids were a NIGHTMARE when I first came into the picture. They were completely out of control, and I mean completely. No real sense of right and wrong, of privacy. If they were to visit your house for example, meeting you for the first time, they would walk through the place like they owned it, go through drawers, play with whatever they wanted, until someone told them no. And even then, they'd do it 3 minutes later again.

The boys 12 and 14, have ADHD and ADD respectively. Their "father" gave them tokes of pot when they were 5 and 7 years old. In fact, I probably don't even need to say anything more about him. That right there, should tell you what kind of person he is. Who gives drugs to 5 and 7 year olds? Losers, that's who.

The mom didn't know about that until after the divorce.

It's not all mom's fault either, how they were raised. One day, the loser announced that since she made more money than him, he had quit his job, and she would now work doubles, and he would stay at home with the kids.... smoking pot around them all day of course.

In fact, in the 10 years they were together, he only worked 5 of them, and left her to do doubles. So she was deprived of having much of a role in raising them, as she was just working all the time. She shoudl have left him, years before she did, but when her own parents had a nasty divorce, she promised herself, she would never put the kids through the same thing. It took her years to realize, that some divorces are best for everyone involved, including the children.

So, yeah, I had my hands full, and still do really.

They are night and day different than they were though.

But it's been alot of work. Alot of love. Alot of talks. Alot of sacrifice.

And every step of the way, you have to continually remind yourself that, in spite of the fact that they are indeed your adopted family, they are also someone else's biological one. No matter the degree of problem you face with these kids, there's always going to be someone in the wings watching, judging, & possibly contradicting your action in the matter (if the other parent has & uses his/her visitation rights).

Situations like thiers as they grew would also occur much more frequently, if we were to legalize drugs. There are always going to be the idjits & twits doing stupid things with children & self. I think that this is one of the main reasons that personal casual & recreational drug use may never be decriminalized in this country.

Until we, as a society, start teaching the concept of personal responsibility & its role in personal freedom, and stop relying so heavily on our gov't's intervention in so many areas of our lives, it is unlikely that we will ever enjoy true freedoms, or even deserve them, perhaps.

JONLYKINS - your comment cracked me up. Perhaps this isn't a "guiding light" episode, after all...it's turned into something like "eight is enough meets little house on the prairie" or "the brady bunch vs rosanne?"

My son was dealing with this with his last gf. She had two little kids. He was with her for nearly two yrs. She's a real piece of work, & has created more problems for him than I will list. Loved those kids, though. I also loved the way he handled things with them.

Well, the real dad, hates me especially because the kids love me, and they respect me more. But he is also very lucky, not only that a caring person of character like myself has some responsibility in his kid's lives, but especially, that I myself was raised by several step-dads, so I uniquely understand that role. They wouldn't see him half as much, if it weren't for me. For example, before this last visit (took 2 months) he would have missed their last 3 visitations, if I hadn't brought them to him. He only lives 35-40 minutes away.

But the kids are developing strong character, and I couldn't be happier about that. They know they are loved here, and they feel protected and safe.

My Father, whom I love and respect dearly, did not hesitate to go up side my head when I was out of line. I can say that his example is the only thing that kept me alive and out of prison during my rebelious years.
I understand action and consequence with a razor sharp perception.
You cannot train animals without discipline and love at the appropriate moments.

That is really really sad. I think they deserve jail.

We agree?

Paul.... we agree!

PAUL!!!!!

PAUL!!!! WE AGREEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!

BUUURRRRPPPPP


Is the group hug over now? lol

BUUURRRRPPPPP


Is the group hug over now? lol

For me the group hug will never be over.

Paul, Craig...*sniff*...I love you guys!

C'mere, Scott...you KNOW you want some of this love, man!

The bible actually speaks AGAINST group hugging.
I've started a new thread on it!




Just kidding.


Hey Captain. You just pop in and out of here these days.

What's going on in your musical universe?