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#30530 by philbymon
Fri May 02, 2008 4:40 pm
Healthy eating was what nearly every American enjoyed until the gov't stepped in with its "healthy eating guidelines" about 60 yrs ago.

Fruits, nuts, vegetables, meats, natural foods were the norm until our good gov't decided that processed foods were healthy. Now we are discovering that our gov't couldn't have been more wrong.

And what section of our populace has been devastated the most by our gov't's intervention in yet another area? The poor.

The poor have been made fat & kept weak by crappy yet tasty foods that have little or no nutritional value, yet are cheap to manufacture, package & sell. Our gov't regularly distributes "processed cheese food product" to the poor through the WIC program. Is this is a good thing they are doing? I don't think so. They are teaching poor eating habits to ppl who don't know any better, & giving them, for all intents & purposes, poison to live on that will create higher costs for our health care system in the future.

Get the gov't out of my family, out of my bedroom, out of my medicine cabinet, out of my refridgerator, & out of my church! I'll be far better off if you do.

Pick a problem in this country. Any problem. I will show you how the gov't's intervention has created it. Make it stop.

#30549 by gbheil
Fri May 02, 2008 7:02 pm
Yea like the price of ammo, They keep waistin it overseas when we could be using it here. :twisted:

#30558 by philbymon
Fri May 02, 2008 8:11 pm
How about the cost of bread, or eggs, or milk, or gas, or heating fuel, or drywall & other building materials, or adequate legal representation, or housing, or any number of things that are skyrocketting mostly because of our present administration's inability to rule in such a way that we can benefit from it, sans?

My costs have gone up at an amazing & fearful rate, & I'm having to increase the cost of my services to balance it out.

Gee, do you think our prez recognizes the source of our inflation? I don't.

As far as the cost of ammo goes, I'm surprized at how much is used in our nation's capital on ppl who have no representation in Congress, when guns have been outlawed there. Funny, huh?

No, not funny at all! These ppl need to be armed, & I'd gladly send in my $5 to fund a program that worked to arm every citizen in DC, or California, or my own home town.

That would br a far better thing to do than to waste all that ammo & weaponry overseas, where we aren't wanted or needed. :wink:

#30568 by Craig Maxim
Fri May 02, 2008 9:03 pm
Ok Phil,

Well you are taking things to an extreme just like the governments that you loathe do! They are wrong and so are you. Not all religious rites can be accommodated, and where children are concerned, we MUST err on the side of safety and protecting life.

Death and forced marriages are NOT appropriate for children, who CANNOT escape, when the religion is forced on them, either through literal force or being groomed into it all their lives.

We agree that the government often goes too far, like calling harmless items "weapons" in school settings, which happened not long ago.

But death? That is really the ultimate child abuse. No one has a right to deprive ANY child of life, whether it is your child or not.

Your position is insanity, and it makes me question your character.

As to slapping in the face. My wife has done it once, for the same reason apparently as the woman you mentioned. I have asked her never to do it again, as I consider it degrading. When a child has lost control and speaks out of place, it is not a very good lesson to him, to basically teach "You need to calm down and measure your words and show restraint, but since you didn't, I must now also NOT show restraint and handle your behavior immediately through force in a public place and in a degrading manner."

We cannot ask restraint of our children, and then not display it ourselves.

I struggle with this myself, as children learn how to push your buttons pretty quickly, and I'm ready to get a belt immediately. But I have been training myself to slow down, send them to their rooms to think about it, while I also decide the best measures. Then, if a spanking is required, I am calmer and they have been sufficiently tortured already, just by having to wait for it! :-)

I believe in a right to spank a child, but I don't like it. I think if you raise a child in a fairly calm and measured environment from birth, and that is what he witnesses growing up, it is less likely that you have to resort to such a measure.

And I am all for the government stepping into abusive situations. My step father used to beat me so severely, that one time my entire face was black and blue. One time he hit me so hard in the mouth, that he broke my braces and the wire pierced my cheek and stuck through the skin. He bragged about his deed when we went to the dentist to have them cut out, while all the while I am sitting there with wire sticking through my cheek. Those were the days, huh? Today, he would have probably been arrested for it. Too bad he wasn't back then.

Better to err on the side of children living, than children dying.
Last edited by Craig Maxim on Fri May 02, 2008 11:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

#30575 by gbheil
Fri May 02, 2008 10:11 pm
I'll take the ammo thanks. Oh, & some new strings for my Strat. Can I have that in a nice FMJ, The ammo not the strings. Just in case you were wondering the G string makes a dandy garote. High E for tripwire. I am into recycling. Earth friendly and all that. But I draw the line at burning my food. Thats crazy.

#30586 by philbymon
Fri May 02, 2008 10:44 pm
I wouldn't hesitate to say that most of us in our age group have suffered that which by today's standards would be called "abuse." (I could give you many examples of my own, but I don't like to promote pity, & I grew out of it just fine, thank you very much.)

We are mammals, basically. We are trained by our parents' actions just like any other mammal - the bear who dotes on her cub, yet smacks him roughly to teach him "no" instead of saying it, is a good example.

One needn't always reason with a child to teach him/her. There are times that a simple smack will do far more than a good talk, imo, esp when the child is very young, & cannot understand the reasons behind the why's & what's we do as members of polite society. There are times to just say "because I said so," & leave it at that.

There are uncrossable lines we as parents need to establish to assure that our children grow with the ideas of respect for others & self, fear of punishment, & proper moral behavior, so that they are firmly set, to assist in thier futures, & to make them contributing members of society.

Our religions help in this development. Through our religions, as our children grow, they can learn why some things are right & others are not. As adults, part of our job is to teach our children our beliefs, to assure that these ideas are passed on & can continue to help future generations in thier behavior, & to assure the safe state of thier immortal souls & such.

You keep referring to "forced marriages." Are you referring to illegal unions with minors, or perfectly legal arranged marriages between people once they come of age? Obviously, I do not argue for the former. That is a form of slavery.

I don't know the details of the case we're arguing about, Craig, but I would say that it is a parental right to decide when & how to use modern medical practices, esp in the use of drugs or blood transfusions.

Did these parents go to anyone for help? Were they advised to pray over the child? Were the drugs to be used & the side effects completely explained to them?

If they naively just decided to pray & leave things in the hands of thier god, I still find it difficult to say that they must be punished. It seems that thier god has punished them quite enough by allowing the child to die, & I seriously doubt that in most cases like this that the parents in question had evil intent, or an active hand in the death.

For me, punishment should be more severe for acts with evil intent. For stupidity & naivete', well, that's another matter.

Did they actually cause the death of thier own child through abuse or neglect? That is the question.

Were the medical practices against the teachings of thier faith? If so, how can you possibly try to punish them for following thier own path? A Moslem may find it very bad to have a blood transfusion from someone who eats pork, & I would agree with his decision to refuse it.

I would allow a parent to stop a blood transfusion, if it went against the tenets of thier belief, for thier own child. I would allow a parent to withhold Ritallin from his child that has been diagnosed with ADHD. I would allow a parent to use a frikken witch doctor instead of a medical professional, if that's the way they believe.

If these beliefs place my character in question, I can live with that far more than I can live with anyone militarily forcing medicine on ppl, or locking them up for not choosing it.

If my position is "insane," then just try to lock me up & "reeducate" or cure me. LOL

#30587 by RyanStrain3032
Fri May 02, 2008 10:47 pm
sanshouheil wrote:Yea like the price of ammo, They keep waistin it overseas when we could be using it here. :twisted:


Thats the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Maybe you should learn how to spell "wasted" then maybe I'd even take your comment seriously...not.

#30590 by philbymon
Fri May 02, 2008 10:58 pm
Um...Ryan...I don't think he meant it to be taken especially seriously.

Most of us misspell wurdses onn a reggularr basssis, & yet wee sumhow manaje too get the massage acrost.

#30591 by gbheil
Fri May 02, 2008 11:01 pm
Glad you enjoyed it. It's called satire. It was not intended to be taken seriously. Read on, I'm not through yet. Or perhaps just read Philby's comment he undrstood my point well enough to debate it. Without stressin over my spellin.

#30598 by philbymon
Fri May 02, 2008 11:31 pm
Craig, I also think that there are times when a "degrading" form of punishment is called for. If my son had called someone the "C" word in a public place, imo it would be perfectly alright to degrade him, to teach him how it feels to be so degraded by another, & yes, a slap on the face would serve, perfectly well.

It is also okay to have an immediate reaction to a problem with a child, in some cases, with some restraint. This, too, will teach them that they can expect an immediate reaction from others outside the safety of the family, if they act in certain ways.

I, too, have struggled over the issue of discipline. It gets more difficult when your background is like ours, due to the eternal question, "am I becoming my abusive parent?" I applaud your struggle, & mine, Craig. It proves that we are indeed trying to do better than that which we grew out of. I think I did pretty well, all in all. I'm very proud of my 24 yr old son, & his views more often than not match my own, too, which is pretty cool.

But I am curious about some of your "liberal" views.

If a man came out with the pill that contained the perfect nanobots that could cure nearly all ills, would you make it mandatory for the general populace to take the pill? They're working on these things, now. It would cure all childhood disease, & even fix most accidental damage to the person. Should we force this on ppl to save the children, say, by making it mandatory to attend public school?

#30599 by Craig Maxim
Fri May 02, 2008 11:34 pm
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5g2S4_VL61HrJgLKWc4HOixPEj4KAD90B83R03

Wis. parents who prayed as diabetic daughter died charged

By ROBERT IMRIE

WESTON, Wis. (AP)
— Two parents who prayed as their 11-year-old daughter died of untreated diabetes were charged Monday with second-degree reckless homicide.

Family and friends had urged Dale and Leilani Neumann to get help for their daughter, but the father considered the illness "a test of faith" and the mother never considered taking the girl to the doctor because she thought her daughter was under a "spiritual attack," the criminal complaint said.

"It is very surprising, shocking that she wasn't allowed medical intervention," Marathon County District Attorney Jill Falstad said. "Her death could have been prevented."

Madeline Neumann died March 23 — Easter Sunday — at her family's rural Weston home. Her parents were told the body would be taken to Madison for an autopsy the next day.

"They responded, 'You won't need to do that. She will be alive by then,'" the medical examiner wrote in a report.

An autopsy determined that Madeline died from undiagnosed diabetic ketoacidosis, which left her with too little insulin in her body. Court records said she likely had some symptoms of the disease for months.

The Neumanns each face up to 25 years in prison if convicted. The couple and their attorney did not immediately return messages left Monday by The Associated Press.

Falstad said the Neumanns have cooperated with investigators and are not under arrest. They have agreed to make an initial court appearance Wednesday, she said.

Randall Wormgoor, a friend of the Neumanns, told police that Dale Neumann led Bible studies at his business, Monkey Mo Coffee Shop, and believed physical illness was due to sin, curable by prayer and by asking for forgiveness from God, the complaint said.

Wormgoor said he and his wife, Althea, were at the Neumann home when Madeline — _ called Kara by her parents — died. Wormgoor said he had urged the father to seek medical help and was told the illness "was a test of faith for the Neumann family and asked the Wormgoors to join them in praying for Kara to get well," the complaint said.

Althea Wormgoor said she "implored" the parents to seek medical help for the girl, the complaint said.

Leilani Neumann, 40, told the AP previously she never expected her daughter to die. The family believes in the Bible, which says healing comes from God, but they have nothing against doctors, she said.

Dale Neumann, 46, a former police officer, has said he has friends who are doctors and started CPR "as soon as the breath of life left" his daughter's body.

According to court documents, Leilani Neumann said in a written statement to police that she never considered taking the girl, who was being home-schooled, to a doctor.

"We just thought it was a spiritual attack and we prayed for her. My husband Dale was crying and mentioned taking Kara to the doctor and I said, 'The Lord's going to heal her,' and we continued to pray," she wrote.

The father told investigators he noticed his daughter was weak and slower for about two weeks but he attributed it to symptoms of the girl reaching puberty, the complaint said.

A day before Madeline died, according to the criminal complaint, the father wrote an e-mail with the headline, "Help our daughter needs emergency prayer!!!!." It said his daughter was "very weak and pale at the moment with hardly any strength."

The girl's grandmother, Evalani Gordon, told police that she learned her granddaughter could not walk or talk on March 22 and advised Leilani Neumann to take the girl to a doctor.

Gordon eventually contacted a daughter-in-law in California who called police on a non-emergency line to report the girl was in a coma and needed medical help. An ambulance was dispatched shortly before some friends in the home called 911 to report the girl had stopped breathing, authorities said.

One relative told police that the girl's mother believed she "died because the devil is trying to stop Leilani from starting her own ministry," the complaint said.

The Neumanns said they moved to Weston, a suburb of Wausau in central Wisconsin, from California about two years ago to open the coffee shop and be closer to other relatives. The couple has three other children, ages 13 to 16; they are living with relatives.

The family does not belong to an organized religion or faith, Leilani Neumann has said.

Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said the parents once belonged to the Lighthouse Pentecostal Church but later became what he called religious "isolationists" involved in a prayer group of five people.

"They have gone out on their own," he said. "... They have a very narrow view of Scripture and I would say not many people hold to that narrow of view."

In March, an Oregon couple who belong to a church that preaches against medical care and believes in treating illness with prayer were charged with manslaughter and criminal mistreatment in the death of their 15-month-old daughter. The toddler died March 2 of bronchial pneumonia and a blood infection that could have been treated with antibiotics, the state medical examiner's office said.

#30604 by philbymon
Sat May 03, 2008 12:17 am
Yep. Just as I suspected. Stupidity & naivete' in the name of god.

They had the right to be isolationists. They had the right to pray for deliverence of thier daughter's "sins." Once the child dies, however, things change a bit (even for me, Craig) & I am surprized that the other ppl involved, who knew what was happening & did little or nothing about it, aren't being charged, as well.

Still, one must take into account that they didn't know about the diabetes, or its effects on the system, evidently. They seem to have been genuinely caring & worried parents, Craig, in thier own stupid way.

Now that they have been proven to be less than adequate parents, for whatever reason, I would keep the other children in the care of thier relatives who aren't quite so wacko, to assure thier safety, sure.

I would not look to criminalize them, or put them in jail, however. Perhaps a better way to handle this would be to only allow them supervised visitation with thier remaining children, & employ a type of probation that assures they have no more kids without public knowledge. I would also allow them to overcome this, with proper education in parenting skills, & an extended amount of probation where they are watched very carefully in how they raise the remainder of thier family.

Slamming these idiots away for 25 years would serve no real purpose, as they were not truly evil ppl who need punishment, imo.

This is a very sad story. There are no real criminals to be found in it, though. I feel the same way about the couple in Oregon.

#30618 by Craig Maxim
Sat May 03, 2008 3:29 am
Can't agree with you.

This was criminal negligence.

The parents knew something was very wrong for 2 months and then SERIOUSLY wrong for 2 weeks prior. The father sent a DESPERATE plea to a prayer list, which shows he knew how bad this was. But rather than bring the plea to 911 or an emergency room, he sent it to a prayer list. He knew she needed to go to an emergency room, but his wacko wife is so full of herself that she actually thought that satan was going to stop her new little personal "ministry" through her daughter's illness. She's so important, if she can just get her little "ministry" off the ground. But awww... her success is being hampered. Satan is attacking this all-important ministry through her daughter. And telling them to not bother with an autopsy? Because she will be back by then?

Were they wrong Phil? Can we agree now, at the price of her daughter's death, that this really wasn't a test of faith after all? "Aww shucks honey! I guess we were wrong. Geezy joes, it wasn't a test of faith after all. Well, at least we have two other kids, in case any more REAL tests of faith come along."

F*ckers!!!

Then having AVOIDED medical intervention on PURPOSE, when she died, oh well NOW let's apply some medical intervention and try and revive her. Why revive her rather than pray for God to revive her? Not very consistent were they?

Assholes.

They deserve prison.

They will likely get some kind of probation or a short stay in the big house, serving less than a quarter of whatever sentence they get.

It was gross criminal negligence.

ANY parent knows that if a child is not over something within a few days or so, they need to be checked out, as a precaution if nothing else. Simple pneumonia can kill a child if left untreated long enough.

Why wouldn't they at least go to a doctor to find out WHAT the problem was?

They need jail time, to send a message, and help prevent other losers from treating their children this way.

Children are not fish that you flush down the toilet when things go wrong, or someone is irresponsible. They are treasures. Gifts from God. They have a RIGHT to be protected to adulthood, where they can live out their own choices. NO ONE has a right to rob them of that. NO ONE!

#30620 by neanderpaul
Sat May 03, 2008 3:31 am
That is really really sad. I think they deserve jail.

#30621 by Craig Maxim
Sat May 03, 2008 3:37 am
I don't agree with you about slapping either.

Besides being too fragile, especially in children, the face is VERY personal. It is like someone's name. We speak, show emotion, look into eyes, and see ourselves in the mirror. The face is a close part and big part of our identity.

I don't believe in degrading it.

I don't really believe in degrading anything in a child.

Why are you going to degrade them?

What a terrible lesson.

It is the child degrading himself that allows them to do things we believe are BENEATH them, and beneath good character. We need NOT to degrade them, but show them that they are higher beings than that. That their actions have already degraded themselves, and made you ashamed of them as well.

It really depends on the respect you have already shown them, and your relationship to the child, but I have known more than a few people, who as adults told me, that the most devastating thing to them growing up, was when their parent said...

"I am disappointed in you!"

If a child loves you and truly has respect for you, then maybe that really is devastating to them, when they want to live up to your expectations of them. Maybe the problem is not the child, so much as the fact that we have lost their respect of us a long time ago, and now resort to force to achieve it. In loving relationships this should not be necessary. I think much of the fault lies with us.

And hopefully, as generations evolve as beings of conscience, maybe this trend of the past, which is not a very good one, begins to improve?

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