General Music Chat

So how many angels CAN dance on a pinhead? I don't know. They seem to avoid me.

Not being a card-carrying member of either of your particular religions, this all looks very trite, even humorous to me.

I don't see how any of this could possibly be important enough to argue about. You pray your way & I'll pray mine, or choose not to at all, & isn't that good enough? Picking apart someone's beliefs & practices just causes unnecessary strife, & ruins the cosmic flow, dudes.

So I ask you - WHY CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?

At least try to keep it a bit lighter in tone, guys. Even GOD has a sense of humor. I know he does- just look at my hairline!

There is no right or wrong when it comes to belief, or the lack thereof, guys. There's what you grew up with &/or what you converted to. I chose to adopt my religion because what I grew up with didn't work for me. After much soul searching & reading & thinking, I finally found something that works for me.

If you have done likewise, then consider yourselves blessed.

There's no real need to "spread the good word." If it truly works for you, ppl will ask what you're doing so right that helps you so much, & then you can tell them. If you're having hard times in your life for long periods of time, well, maybe what you're doing isn't at all what you need to do, & you may need to reevaluate your faith.

Only you can know what works & what doesn't for YOURSELF. When you start to decide for others, you're overstepping your bounds, & I suspect that even THE GREAT AND ALL-POWERFUL COSMIC MUFFIN will be displeased by your actions, no matter how you choose to interpret your holy books.

Peace my brothers in musical armaments!

I'll leave you with a religious joke;

An anthropologist was working in the Amazon. The local tribe taught him thier ways, & he was also invited to join in thier religious practices. Being a good Christian man, & feeling like a hypocrite, he did join in to learn as much as he could about this tribe. He learned much about thier deity, the great Googalla Moogalla, & took copious notes about it all.

One day, as he was walking across a very high, very long rope bridge, the bridge broke, & he found himself hanging onto a thin rope above a very deep abyss.

"Oh Jesus save me!" he cried.

The rope held for a single second longer, then snapped.

As he was plummeting to a sure death, he panicked, & recalling the local deity, he cried out;

"Great Googalla Moogalla! Save me!"

Just then a huge hand came down from above, & snatched him from his fall, & then placed him gently on the other side of the canyon.

"Oh thank God!" the man whispered.
















The hand returned, & a huge finger flicked him into the abyss.

Paul,

As I mentioned, it is the Law of Moses which was superceded, not the entire Old Testament. Jesus wouldn't have quoted so often from the Old Testament, he would not have taught the Old Testament in Synagogues if it were irrelevant.

It was relevant and binding then, when Christ was still alive and the old law was still in effect.

You have to take the whole counsel of the Bible, not part of it.

I do .... "the sum of thy word is truth" and the old law told of the new law to come. And that we would be under it.

But we will have to agree to disagree.

For sure friend

You don't understand my heart on this, nor do you feel, what I feel, regarding God's disappointment with those that claim His name.

I think I do Craig. It seems to me you think that I am making a division. What you call making a division I call rightly dividing and standing for the truth. These are matters of doctrine.

If you feel you are somehow more justified personally, before your Father, by worshipping in a more legalistic manner, then that is what you will continue to do. You are doing what you feel is right.

I don't feel like I'm more justified or better than anyone. It doesn't make make me feel superior to uphold what I read to be the laws. I don't do what I "feel" is right. We simply can't go on how we feel. Head hunters in Africa felt right about what they did. God doesn't expect us to go on feeling. That is why he gave us his written word and promised it was complete. I go instead by what I read is right.

I really feel though, that I am seeing the bigger picture, more from God's perspective, more in touch with His heart, than you are.

There is that feel word again. I read so I believe. I think the bigger picture is that God expects obedience from his children. So we will be happy here and happy in heaven.

But that is subjective and personal for each of us.

Agreed, "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

You are trying to follow God's will the best you know how, and I respect that. Don't think I don't. I also respect you as an artist and consider us friendly.

I don't want this thread to impact any of that.

The feeling is mutual on all those points.

So, we've shared our "evidence" and it doesn't persuade either of us, so I think we can agree that we've reached an impasse.

Let's agree to remain friends, and move on.

Agreed again. I do feel the need to respond to your previous post and will do so in another response.

Once again, I don't think bars are evil. I don't think liquor is evil. I don't think ANY inanimate object is evil. People going to a bar to socialize is not evil to me. But as to "appearances", once again you are being somewhat hipocritical if you desire to be ABSOLUTE on this topic. Frankly, you look like the devil in your profile pic, or at least people's conception of the devil. Almost none of your pics look reverent or holy. In fact, you appear to be trying to look cool or wicked. Anyone's comments to you about them over the last months will confirm that. But you don't seem to care about "that" appearance.

I agree, inanimate objects aren't evil, but the self abuse that goes on in bars with alcohol, cigarettes, etc is evil and bars do tempt you to join in the "fun".

And what does the devil look like? You got me I am trying to look cool. I don't however equate wicked with cool. And when I am serving as the song leader I do it in a reverent manner, with reverent expression and body language.

God is not some schizophrenic whacko that DEMANDED his chosen people to play instruments, only to PROHIBIT us from playing them after Christ's crucifixion, only to RESUME the practice all over again in Heaven.

By that reasoning you are calling God schizo for demanding animal sacrifices in the old testament and not in the new.

God living INSIDE you and directing your path, is a FAR MORE RELIABLE guide that anything written on paper.

Again the bible is the pure and perfect will of God and all we need to know. We can rely on it.

If you want to limit your relationship to your father through text primarily, that is your choice. But I suspect you would be MISERABLE if your primary communication with your own children, was limited to letters. God would concur. He desires most, to have a loving relationship with you directly, from heart to heart, not for you to find out who He is, primarily through reading about Him.

I read about God in his word, AND I pray to him. He answers prayer, but I don't hear him. I am not Oral Roberts.

The written word of God is VERY important, but has been filtered through the mind of men, written in languages made of men, and translated into other languages by scholars who may or may not, have translated correctly.

God promised it is perfect and complete will and if we seek we shall find. Add that to the fact that he had the power to create the 23 1/2 degree tilt that gives us perfect seasons, a water cycle that replenishes itself and it's easy for me to believe he can deliver his complete will. After all he promised.

If you believe that you know the will of God best from reading a book about Him, as opposed to communing DIRECTLY with Him, then we will likely never find common ground.

And likewise if we cant agree that the bible is all we need to know (as God promised) then we will likely never find common ground.

Paul,

My outrage is not exclusively about you. It is the culture you are related to. It infuriates me. It is destroying the body of Christ and perverting the true message of God's heart and love.

I think the grievous wolves entering in teaching false doctrines and not sparing the flock are destroying the body of Christ and that's what infuriates me. .... acts 20:29

If it is not "instruments" it is baptism by "immersion" as opposed to "sprinkling"

That's another word transliterated (as opposed the translated) by King James. The practice of "his church" was all three (sprinkling, pouring, immersion) When the translators got there he threatened their lives if they translated the word immersion (which is how it read) Now if you had read in the bible repent and be immersed every one of you for the remission of sins...... Acts 2:38 would there be a question in your mind as to what God's chosen method is? That's what the original text shows. Also the examples with Peter and the Eunuch. They went "down into the water" Acts 8:26-40

Obviously this is another can of worms, but there it is a command that says immersion is how we get our sins remitted. The blood of Christ is what washes them away, God's chosen method is immersion.

Which brings us back to the verse why call ye me lord lord and do not the things which I say.

We must be obedient to be pleasing.

There is no right or wrong when it comes to belief, or the lack thereof, guys.

Only you can know what works & what doesn't for YOURSELF.

"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" John 14:6

Picking apart someone's beliefs & practices just causes unnecessary strife, & ruins the cosmic flow, dudes.

So I ask you - WHY CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?

We aren't picking apart each others beliefs. Instead we are supporting our own beliefs with scripture from the inspired word of God. I think we are doing a pretty good job of getting along. It's a tough topic. We both agreed we like and respect each other.

And your joke was pretty funny.

I'm sorry but your whole argument makes no sense to me. It's ludicrous! Why would God make instruments and say that it's okay to play them, but not for him?

"Hey, here's a piano! You can play it, but not when I'm around..."

Where does it say in the Bible that you can't play instruments "in church"?

I know, the verse only mentions being able to sing, but it doesn't mention NOT being able to play instruments...You're making that part up and putting words in God's mouth (which is a sin). He NEVER said ANYTHING like this! He made instruments...

The Bible says, "Make a joyful noise unto the Lord...", it doesn't say "Make a joyful noise unto the Lord, but not with an instrument!".

It just makes no sense...

GAH! I didn't want to get involved in this discussion, but I just can't help it.

Why would God make instruments and say that it's okay to play them, but not for him?

God didn't make instruments.

I know, the verse only mentions being able to sing, but it doesn't mention NOT being able to play instruments...You're making that part up and putting words in God's mouth (which is a sin). He NEVER said ANYTHING like this! He made instruments...

The bible doesn't mention an infinite number of things that we aren't to do in worship. It doesn't have to. Instead it only has to tell us what to do. If you want to get in on this conversation at least read the previous posts. This has been covered.

The Bible says, "Make a joyful noise unto the Lord...", it doesn't say "Make a joyful noise unto the Lord, but not with an instrument!".

It says in 2 or 3 places in the New Testament (the law we are now under) to sing. It doesn't say to play. Actually adding an item to worship would be adding to the bible. Which the end of revelations tells you will put your soul in danger of hell. I'm not adding to the bible when I say don't add instruments. I'm simply telling you that the bible says not to add to the bible.

GAH! I didn't want to get involved in this discussion, but I just can't help it.

I feel you there. It's a tough topic. It's no fun for me in this situation. I am completely alone here in my view.

My view is simply speak where the bible speaks. Do bible things in bible ways. Call bible things by bible names.

God didn't make instruments.

God made EVERYTHING...Maybe not physically, but it's his plan for ANYTHING to be created. God lets man make things, basically. I mean, God LET man make porn. He doesn't like it, but it's in his plan. Cause if it wasnt, then it wouldn't exist.

What about the angels? They play trumpets...So how can an angel get a man-made trumpet?

I think most will agree that God has specifically instructed (even "commanded") Christians to sing as part of the worship that He expects (even "demands"). Since He has not commanded nor even suggested to us to play musical instruments in worship, we can be absolutely certain that if we don't use musical instruments, then He will be pleased with Christians singing if their worship comes from the heart.

Since there is no command for us not to use instruments, it would follow that instrumental accompaniment is perfectly acceptable.
If something is forbidden in the new testament, it should explicitly say so. Right?
I wouldn't think that you would have to guess at, and infer as to what would be displeasing to god.

As long as singing is present (everyone sings), I think you are fulfilling the instruction.

Capice?

Since there is no command for us not to use instruments, it would follow that instrumental accompaniment is perfectly acceptable.
If something is forbidden in the new testament, it should explicitly say so. Right?

They don't see it that way.

The disciples didn't carry instruments with them, when they secretly met in private homes, so neither do they.

They follow the "example" of the disciples, well, except for modern conveniences, which they seem to enjoy, like air conditioning, microphones and speakers.

It's funny, cause sometimes I'm just doing something in my daily activities, and I'll get a thought like...

"It's a good thing the poor and persecuted early church didn't have to wear disguises to meet together, cause following that example today, they would all be wearing fake noses and wigs, to worship the Lord."

Wouldn't that be a sight?

Since there is no command for us not to use instruments, it would follow that instrumental accompaniment is perfectly acceptable.

If something is forbidden in the new testament, it should explicitly say so. Right?
I wouldn't think that you would have to guess at, and infer as to what would be displeasing to god.

At the end of revelations it says not to add to the scriptures. That's what adding instruments to the worship is to me.
I don't think we should guess either. That's why we just sing. That is the only instruction regarding music in the new testament church.

As long as singing is present (everyone sings), I think you are fulfilling the instruction.

Capice?

It seems to me that if ewveryone is singing you are fulfilling the instruction. But if you are playing that you are adding to instrunction, therefore to the scriptures.

At the end of revelations it says not to add to the scriptures. That's what adding instruments to the worship is to me.
I don't think we should guess either. That's why we just sing. That is the only instruction regarding music in the new testament church.

The Bible doesn't say you can have pews, or carpet, or chairs, or lights, or fans, or air conditioning, or windows, or plants...But that doesn't mean you can't.

The Bible doesn't say you can have pews, or carpet, or chairs, or lights, or fans, or air conditioning, or windows, or plants...But that doesn't mean you can't.

He doesn't mind "adding" to that part of the bible.

At the end of revelations it says not to add to the scriptures. That's what adding instruments to the worship is to me.
I don't think we should guess either. That's why we just sing. That is the only instruction regarding music in the new testament church.

The Bible doesn't say you can have pews, or carpet, or chairs, or lights, or fans, or air conditioning, or windows, or plants...But that doesn't mean you can't.

Again, those things are not items of worship. Singing is.

Ryan, welcome to the discussion, but again please read the previous posts. This has also been covered.

Whew looks like I'm not the only one who was busy this weekend.