General Music Chat

Calling on the Lord is not taking His name in vain.

Right, but "calling on the lord" while you are clearly not calling on the lord is calling on him in vain. Did you really have God in mind when you said that?

Well, you are clearly not "following the rules" since "silence" on a matter or the absence of providing a rule, does not then suddenly BECOME a rule.

That's where you've got me wrong. See what people have done when they add instruments is they have added a rule. What we have done by not adding them is nothing. We didn't change. The people who added them did. I only point out that adding them is an idea of men. Therefore we don't do it. Make sense?

It would be the same thing if you stood up to anything somebody submitted as a new practice in the service. For instance if somebody said we are getting a homosexual preacher in and you said no and backed it up with Romans 1:27. Then the Church split over it. Would you be the cause of it? No way. 1 Corinthians 12:25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
That doesn't mean have no backbone. We have to stand up for the truth.

Clearly adding instruments is an idea of men, yes? You are only use to it and comfortable with it because it has been around for hundreds of years.


Following rules is what we were designed to do. Left to our own devices what happens?

Proverbs 16:25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.


Jeremiah 10:23 O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

We are supposed to follow rules and have the right heart about it. Not one or the other. If you'll notice Craig I've backed every thing I said with scriptures.

Yessness.
You never cease to amaze me, Neanderpaul.

I'm good at that.

Neanderpaul: I do understand from whence you come. Yet "my" heart tells me that "my" utilization of instruments in praise is not sinfull nor outside the will of the Lord. Hence I will continue to make a Loud noise unto the Lord. And if I am wrong. My Father will forgive me thru the blood of Jesus.
God Bless You and Yours my friend.

May God bless you as well buddy!

Right, but "calling on the lord" while you are clearly not calling on the lord is calling on him in vain. Did you really have God in mind when you said that?

Did you read my comment bro? I said right there that that was NOT in the spirit with which I said the remark and I referred you to the other part of the response. How did you miss that?

That's where you've got me wrong. See what people have done when they add instruments is they have added a rule. What we have done by not adding them is nothing. We didn't change. The people who added them did. I only point out that adding them is an idea of men. Therefore we don't do it. Make sense?

Make sense? Of course not. It makes NO sense. There is NO rule of any church I know of (although they may be out there) that says you MUST play an instrument. They can play instruments or NOT play instruments, so clearly there is NO RULE. It is YOU GUYS which have made it a rule, since you NEVER play instruments, and you do this for doctrinal or religious religious reasons. When you can do something, or NOT do something, your choice, then that is NOT a rule. When you DISALLOW something EVERY TIME. That is a rule. You are making it a rule, no one else.

If adding them is an idead of man, as you say, then REMOVING them was also an idea of man, since there is no scripture to back up removing them. When eating food that was prviously off limits is now accepted, and a true religious practice has changed, according to God's direction, then there is an EXPLANATION of it, in the bible. Paul lays out quite clearly, what has changed, and why a previous rule, no longer applies. He does not remain SILENT on the issue, and just change the previous policy, without justifying it. Based on that, it is clear that playing instruments in church HAS NOT changed, in the sense that it is now somehow forbidden. The early church simply did not have the time or the resources to have elaborate church services. But as it grew, and became an established religion, that was no longer persecuted, then one by one, the elaborate and ceremonial nature of church worship returned to the church.

When God has determined that an entire TRIBE of Israel will be committed to playing the musical instruments in church services, than we can know that God enjoys our using such talents and instruments for his praise. He enjoyed it so much, that an entire TRIBE, the Levites, were ordained for this purpose.

Because Christ came, God did not suddenly develop a distaste for musical instruments. And if he did, we can be SURE that there would be a record in the bible of WHY. There is no such record, and NO SUCH RULE regarding musical instruments. YOU GUYS MADE IT UP, based on nothinig more than "silence" on the matter, or believing youare following the path of the early church. If it is the latter, I already mentioned to you, that you should be meeting privately and secretly in homes, since THAT is the method of the early church. You should also be donating ALL your possessions and living in cummunes together, since THAT is also the method of the early church.

But of course, you don't want to give up your church buildings, your air-conditioning or your microphones, and especially ALL your possessions, and so, you will just single out instruments, in order to separate yourselves from other Christians and believe you are serving God better than everyone else. Giving up instruments is easy. Giving up your house and your car and your looping machine.... not so easy, huh?

Yeah bro, let's just stick with the instruments part. LMAO!

It would be the same thing if you stood up to anything somebody submitted as a new practice in the service.

Ahh.. but the "new" practice is NOT playing instruments to praise God with, not the other way around.

We have to stand up for the truth.

But you are NOT standing up for truth. You have turned the fact that the early church was too poor to have instruments and elaborate services in their own buildings, into a NEW LAW, that this is actually forbidden now somehow, even though NOWHERE does the Bible claim this. You have made a HUGE "assumption" on God's desires. It is YOU who are taking the risk here, not us. Our use of instruments to praise God, is based on THOUSANDS of years of biblical history. NONE OF WHICH has EVER been overturned, or stated to be inappropriate or wrong. You guys have just made this up, based on nothing more that "silence" on the matter. Adn now you wroship this man-made law as God's law. THAT is what is offensive. How many times in history, have men thought they were honoring God only to find they were in defiance of Him? The Jews that sent Christ to the cross, certainly believed they were defending the law, when they did so. Now, you are the new pharisees, believing you are defending a tradition, and worse than the Jews, your tradition, is not even a tradition established by God. At least the Jews could rest on the written word of God. You rely instead on the fact that there is NO written word of God on this matter. How insane is that?

Clearly adding instruments is an idea of men, yes? You are only use to it and comfortable with it because it has been around for hundreds of years.

No, it has been around for THOUSANDS of years, since God first gave commandments on how services in the temple should be conducted. Even in Genesis, this honor is lauded...

"And his brother's name was Jubal; he was the father of all those who play the lyre and pipe." (Genesis 4:2)

Find me somewhere that the bible says "And he was the father of all those who practice child abuse"

Playing instruments is of God. Music is of God. We should worship God with both, otherwise, something so beautiful is only there to praise satan or man with. I don't think we should leave God out, when it is He who gave us the ability to create and play such instruments, and He was the one behind establishing a whole TRIBE of Israelites to be entrusted with the honor of playing such instruments in temple services.

Following rules is what we were designed to do. Left to our own devices what happens?

It really depends on your heart and your relationship to God. You'll find that rules are really unecessary when the spirit of the living God dwells with you. This is why the gentiles are a law unto themselves. Paul is making note of the fact, that even without the benefit of a written law, the gentiles often follow "conscience" as a law, clearly provided by God. The "law" is written on the hearts of men. Paul also explains that a written law is in fact inferior to the law of conscience, because a written law is MERCILESS and STATIC and UNCHANGEABLE. It is a cruel task master. The law of conscience clearly overides any written law, and even any supposed "law" of tradition, as you are believing you follow. This is patently clear, by Jesus excusing his dsicples unwashed hands, by citing the history of David, saying... "Have you not read what David did when he and his companions were hungry, how he went into the house of God and ate the bread of offering, which neither he nor his companions but only the priests could lawfully eat?"

Here was a TRUE law being violated Paul, not an ASSUMED law. And Jesus is pointing out to them that Davi was not judged for this, and neither will Jesus' disciples be judged for it. Clearly, the law is made for man, not the other way around.

Proverbs 16:25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

ROM 2:14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law

We are supposed to follow rules and have the right heart about it. Not one or the other. If you'll notice Craig I've backed every thing I said with scriptures.

Actually, no you don't back any of this up with scripture, because as you yourself admit, there IS NO scripture to back it up. When Christ frees us from law, you have made a new law. Relying on law, rather than the conscience, according to the Bible, is a weakness of conscience.

Before you guys came up with the idea of rejecting instruments, the early church struggled with certain meats and food sacrificed to idols. How much worse does it seem, to eat something sacrificed to an idol, than to merely play a musical instrument in church, which had been done for thousands of years previously?

Certainly eating food sacrificed to idols would be worse.

Yet we find...

1CO 8:7 But not everyone knows this. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat such food they think of it as having been sacrificed to an idol, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled.

Do you see? This legalism is a weakness of conscience, not a show of higher faith.

Yet the Bible also says that if I eat meat and do it for God, then it is for God, and if you refuse to eat meat, and do so for God, then it is also for God. BOTH are acceptable Paul. I realize this, but you probably won't, because you believe that instruments in church are wrong. But substitute food as the "offending" item, and we can see, that neither is "wrong". If you are NOT using instruments because of a love for God, then it is acceptable. And if I "AM" using instruments to praise God, then it is acceptable.

But the Bible also commands me not to use my "freedom" (the Bible's words) as a stumbling block to those who are weaker (legalists), and this thread has gone on long enough, where maybe that is a real danger. If you need to reject instruments to feel you serve God, than I should not be a sumbling block, as the Bible says, because I accept the freedom Christ has given me.

1CO 8:9 Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak.

Ahh.. but the "new" practice is NOT playing instruments to praise God with, not the other way around.

Quite simply instruments are the new practice. Because again we are under the new covenant or new testament. The new Church that Jesus started clearly was told to sing. Obviously repeating those two facts based on scripture has no effect on you.

We made no rules, we simply followed the command to sing. It is clear whether you agree or not.

Following your logic where does it end? What else can you bring into the service and say it is ok? Anything you want?

They met in a home a home is a building. We meet in a building. There is no conflict there.

BTW We also meet in homes.

Wow Craig so many things you said are so far from what is going on I don't even know how to talk to you.

I did back up everything with scriptures. The new testament says that in the worship service we are to preach, teach, pray, sing, partake of the lords supper and give of our means.

If you can show me where the new testament church played instruments then I will say it's ok. Otherwise I will continue to praise God and Christ with the voice he gave me in the way he asked.

The old law did pass away. I already quoted the scripture that says so. If you want to keep the old law in part you must keep in whole.

st.luke10-24= For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them .

Quite simply instruments are the new practice. Because again we are under the new covenant or new testament. The new Church that Jesus started clearly was told to sing. Obviously repeating those two facts based on scripture has no effect on you.

What has no apparent effect, is my explaining to you that the early church had to meet in secret, and were POOR. They did not have the luxury to afford instruments, when they were building a following, by sending out disciples to all nations, and were persecuted at the time. They lived pretty much with the clothes on their backs. They donated ALL possessions to the church. You still have not answered that part. Since CLEARLY this was also the EXAMPLE of the early church, who do you not follow it? You can't answer that, because you would have to provide the argument, that as the church has grown, perhaps it is no longer necessary to give up all things and become missionaries. In other words, you would likely have to state that "Things have changed over time" which would then DEFEAT your argument about instruments, which is why you won't address it.

As to the "We are commanded to sing and so we do" excuse, well OF COURSE they were asked to sing, their VOICES were all they had bro! They gave all things to the church.

Let's see how that discussion might go...


The Apostle Paul: "Sing praises to the Lord and play instruments in his praise..."

Follower: "Uhh... excuse me brother Paul, but how can we play instruments when you instructed us to give all our possessions to the church? I mean Silas over there had a nice lyre, and barnabas over there had a harp at one time, but then you told us to sell it and use the money for the poor... so... uhm.... we don't have instruments any more!"

The Apostle Paul: "Oh crap! You're right, sorry, don't worry about that last part then!"

Do you get it yet?

How is he going to command them to play instruments when all they have is the clothes on their backs, cause they donated EVERYTHING to the church?

Find your way out of this one.

You can't.

If you are going to use the EXCUSE that you are following the "example" of the early church in not playing instruments, then you MUST also follow ALL of their other examples, like donating ALL things to the church, and living in group communes, and NOT spending money on church buildings, air-conditioning, pews or anything else, when that money is used for the poor and sending missionaries out.

But you like your air-conditioning and your private home and your musical equiptment, so you won't be following THOSE examples.

You really should accept the reality that when things are forming and new, like the Christian church, that things change and grow and develop over time. The New Testament itself is a testimony of some of this growth, where disciples were deciding whether food sacrificed to idols was sinful to eat or not, and many other issues. We can literally watch them, basically debate these issues out. Well, the church has NOT stopped growing and learning and developing, and church leaders today are not less important than the disciples of yesteryear. New issues come up, due to science for example, and the Bible will not always answer these things directly, because there may have been no precedent for it, two thousand years ago, but we still have to make moral judgements on them now, like cloning for example, or even space travel. The Bible is a guide, but a limited guide. The Bible teaches us that the living God that dwells within us is our best guide. We don't know how the disciples would have handled electricity for sure, because such a thing did not exist as a consumer product back then, But maybe, like the Amish, they would have objected to it? We can't know. We have to make our best judgement. That judgement tells me, that if food sacrificed to idols is not an issue, neither would electricity be an issue, or instruments returning to the church.

You clearly saw, that legalism displayed "weakness" in faith. I quoted the verse. Your adamance on banishing instruments, is no less superstitious than eating meat sacrificed to idols. Clinging to it is a weakness. The legalists of Jesus' day however, were FAR MORE on solid ground than you, because there were laws that stated they were not to eat things sacrificed to idols. You can't even fall back on such a rule. Because as you admit, there is no rule. You made it up.

Following your logic where does it end? What else can you bring into the service and say it is ok? Anything you want?

Like hymnals and electricity and microphones? You already make these decisions yourselves. Sadly, some legalist a hundred years ago, decided he would split an entire movement up, because he didn't like instruments in church. There is no precedent for elecricity and microphones in church either, and SPEAKERS (ooohh... I'm gonna nail you with that, just watch! LOL - can't believe I didn't think of this before!) and yet who wants to sweat? So we'll allow air-conditioning!


Speakers, brother Paul... yes, yes.... SPEAKERS!!!!!!

Ah yes, lovely modern speakers!!!!


Paul you sinner!

You use speakers in service. Microphones and speakers.

Why would we only praise God in church through voice? Some "reasons" come to mind, that would make some sense....

The voice is natural? Organic? It doesn't have to be "manufactured"? We are born with it? God gives life, and our voices are an aspect of the life that God gave and which we are born with?

Those could likely be some of the reasons, don't you think?

And yet, you are NOT sharing your voice with the congregation, but you are using, what is in effect, an instrument, in which to amplify your voice. When you sing into a microphone, what comes out of the speaker is NOT your voice. It is a duplication, a mimicking of your voice. But it is NOT your personal voice being heard.

When you sing or talk into a microphone, the sound waves are turned into electrical impulses, that go through a wire, into a speaker which is an electromechanical transducer that converts an electrical signal to sound.

No one hears your voice over that sound-system, but they are hearing an immitation of your voice. They are hearing elecrical impulses being translated and interpreted into sound, meant to represent your voice as perfectly as possible.

But it is NOT your voice.

It is merely an immitation or interpretation of your voice.

So, in amplifying your voice through this technology, you are in fact, placing above the voices of everyone else singing naturally, a man made, manipulated sound, that is not a voice at all, but merely a sound meant to imitate the voice.

Musical instruments themselves, produce vibrations that become sound to our ears as well. But the electrical signals that your voice is turned into and then translated into sound, is not any more natural, than is the sounds produced through the vibration and amplification of musical instruments.

So, in effect, rather than being a service of voices alone, you have actually turned your voice into a musical electronic instrument, being played above all the real voices, all the while proud of yourself for banishing such devices from church!

I love it!

well being a roman catholic i think ill just sit in the corner and keep quiet..
im in the minority and i know it...but thats not so bad..
i think its great that we can all respect each others faiths...
and notice that i said faith....and not the "R" word....

there is a world of difference between the two....

well being a roman catholic i think ill just sit in the corner and keep quiet..
im in the minority and i know it...but thats not so bad..
i think its great that we can all respect each others faiths...
and notice that i said faith....and not the "R" word....

there is a world of difference between the two....

Well said.

But I am still thinking of Changing my screen name to...

"Speakers!!!"

LOL

How is he going to command them to play instruments when all they have is the clothes on their backs, cause they donated EVERYTHING to the church?

Find your way out of this one.

You can't.

I can. If he asked me to play I would bang on things, I would invent instruments, I would blow a blade of grass, etc etc etc because humans like you and me are creative.

There simply is no hole in my logic that I am doing as he commanded when I sing.

You seem frustrated. I do not want you to be angry Craig. Seriously.

What has no apparent effect, is my explaining to you that the early church had to meet in secret, and were POOR. They did not have the luxury to afford instruments, when they were building a following, by sending out disciples to all nations, and were persecuted at the time.

We are not poor because the lord blesses us. We do send out disciples. My father, brother-in-law, preacher, and a few other members went to Tanzania summer before last. The only reason I haven't gone yet is because of my 2 young children. I do however present thought provoking scriptures and discussion here and where I go.

God doesn't want us to be dirt poor, that would make us poor stewards of our bodies and resources. On the contrary....

John 10: 10, "I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly"

You really should accept the reality that when things are forming and new, like the Christian church, that things change and grow and develop over time.

Ecclesiastes 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

"I am the Lord, I change not" (Mal. 3:6)

(ooohh... I'm gonna nail you with that, just watch! LOL - can't believe I didn't think of this before!)

Am I the only one who detects Craig taking delight in "trying" to pin me down?

I love it!

What exactly is it that you love Craig? It sure seems that I'm still trying to follow the examples and commands given by God in his inspired word. It seems to me that I'm just using scripture to say "hey there it is, God promised we can know his will, and there it is. I read it for myself. I didn't feel it, or hear it second hand. I know because God gave his clear will to us.

Craig it is still clear that singing is commanded. It also still clear that you haven't shown where instruments are commanded in the new Law we are under.

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

It is also clear from the previous verses in REV. that adding to or taking away from the bible puts your salvation in peril.

It is also clear that you seem to have grown.... uh.... " less than positive"

All I've done is shared from the heart what I have read.

We were commanded to spread the Gospel to all the peoples of the earth.
I dont recall any mention of the printing press, radio, tv, UTube or the ENet. I think what ever Media works. The Gent with whom I jammed last night takes his amp and guitar into the prisons. He has helped many find the light of Christ. If it presents a stumbling block for an individual then by all means he should steer clear. I for one refuse to sing The Lords Prayer. When I tried I was more concerned with the singing than the words. I would not tell the other members of our congregation not to. But as Ive stated before I will continue to make a loud noise before the Lord, and if its wrong. My Father has forgiven me.

I can. If he asked me to play I would bang on things, I would invent instruments, I would blow a blade of grass, etc etc etc because humans like you and me are creative.

I think you are not approaching this historically. You are not really putting yourself in the shoes of the disciples and the early church, to understand their thinking and their struggles.

NO ONE was trying to establish a future model for a "church", as far as function and purpose goes. They were spreading the Gospel as quickly as they could. They were trying to bring as many souls to the Lord as quickly as they could.

They literally expected Christ's return "any day".

Why would they worry over instruments? They gave ALL their posessions to the church. Now you say you would "make" some? Or bang on something as a replacement? They never ever, ever, expected that 2000 years would pass, and Christ STILL has not returned. After years, then decades, then hundreds of years passed, the church spread, and settled down, and grew into a huge religion. 300 years after Christ's death, Christianity spread so far and successfully that it became the religion of Rome, under Constantine. As in the Old Testament, the entire culture, and all the wealth and power of the state, was now behind the new religion, and it afforded them the luxuries of cathedrals and instruments and robes for priests, etc...

The New Testament was written by contemporaries of Christ, most of which were eyewitnesses to Christ's ministry and death and resurrection.

They thought he was coming back any day Paul.

They never expected they were creating a method of church services that would be followed THOUSANDS of years later.

I have explained these things scripturally and logically to you. You have too great a vested interest in your position and culture, to change anything and consider all this with an open mind.

It grieves me, that you love a man-made doctrine and your "position" in it, so much, that you sacrifice the freedom Christ gave us, and turn your back on it.

I think you would live a fuller life in true worship, and not worship based on laws. But you aren't ready for that.

God is our father.

Breathe and grasp that for a moment Paul.

God is truly and literally... our Father!

We lay down many rules for the betterment of our children, but not many, when it comes to how they relate to us, other than that they respect us possibly.

We don't tell our children... "You may give me a letter on my birthday, but not a card, because that will incur my wrath."

We don't say... "You can sing me a song that's exactly 4 minutes long, but if you don't sing it well, or if you play an instrument with it, I will not listen to it, and it will be offensive to me."

We don't put these kind of rules on our children, because we welcome their love, we welcome it in many varied forms. We don't care how simple it is, or how elaborate it is. Our children loved us enough to do something for us. That pleases us. We are loved by our children. That's enough for us."

If you don't understand that our Father in Heaven feels the same way toward His own children, the ones He Himself created, and made all of the billions of galaxies of the cosmos for, then Paul, quite frankly, you don't know our Father the way I do.

That makes me sad. It makes my heart literally ache for you.

Let me ask you this...If it's a sin to play instruments in church, and your body is the church, then why do you play instruments ANYWHERE?! The Church is not the building that you go to on Sunday. The Church is the PEOPLE - Christians - the Congregation. YOU are the church if you are a Christian.

So no matter where you play your instrument...you are always playing it "in church", cause YOU ARE THE CHURCH. So, why is it bad to play it in the church building, but fine to play it at a gig?

See, this type of legalism is what splits churches up. Everybody is too busy arguing about what type of music is bad, what types of instruments are bad, and what type of clothing is bad, that they forget the main reason for being there...To worship God! It's not about HOW you reach the goal, it's just about getting to it any way you can.

Do you love Jesus? That's all that matters.

- Ryan

Let me ask you this...If it's a sin to play instruments in church, and your body is the church, then why do you play instruments ANYWHERE?! The Church is not the building that you go to on Sunday. The Church is the PEOPLE - Christians - the Congregation. YOU are the church if you are a Christian.

So no matter where you play your instrument...you are always playing it "in church", cause YOU ARE THE CHURCH. So, why is it bad to play it in the church building, but fine to play it at a gig?

See, this type of legalism is what splits churches up. Everybody is too busy arguing about what type of music is bad, what types of instruments are bad, and what type of clothing is bad, that they forget the main reason for being there...To worship God! It's not about HOW you reach the goal, it's just about getting to it any way you can.

Do you love Jesus? That's all that matters.

- Ryan

Well said brother.

You're a hell of alot smarter somehow, without the photoshopped teeth!


Just kiddin' little brother!